[WIP] RD-0410 Soviet nuclear engine

[kunok]

Early development of the RD-0410 for this glorious game

Gallery

Github

License (imcluided in github): Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International Public License

Original post

I'm learning to model with blender, so I started to model the good old rd-0410, it's a shame that there it's no mod for it.

Currently, I only have a proof of concept that it's doable, the model itself it's done with a cad tool and then exported to Blender.

http://kunok0.deviantart.com/art/RD-0410-proof-of-concept-prueba-de-concepto-546141519

I'm using for reference,due the lack of anything better, this image http://www.russianspaceweb.com/images/rockets/engines/rd0410/scale_1to5_2.jpg , and this video

I'm new to making mods, so this can take a time, and I will ask for help a lot

Edited July 16, 2015 by kunok
forgot license

[kunok]

New image!

First serious iteration, http://fav.me/d91a1gz , there is missing a lot of things yet, and I don't know how to make a good render, but that's insignificant.

I think, there is so many tubes in the real design that it's almost impossible to know where are they pointed in the photos, so here it's the scheme of how I understand that it works, looking the video and the images, http://www.subirimagenes.com/imagen-esquematubos-9416046.html ; what do you think about that? I will only do a few tubes, just the necessary for it to work , there it's no need for redundant tubes in the game, a little abstraction it's good.

Next time I will upload the blender files and I'm starting looking to the config files . Should I use Github to upload these things? Most mods seems to upload there everything. It's good for non-source files, like blender files?

Edited July 14, 2015 by kunok
wrong link

[BenjiGH]

It look nice (I'm watching you on Da to follow your progress btw) but why did you made an hexagonal base ? and I could help you for modelling and cfg as well as importing in unity, just send a note on da

[kunok]

Looks like the post I tried to make yesterday disappeared in the nothing.

Well now it has plumbing! And improved structure! It's starting to look great, and now has a gallery:

http://justsitback.deviantart.com/?rssQuery=gallery%3Akunok0%2F55304505&s=8%2C3%2C0

The texture for now it just a placeholder.

And there it's a github with the model (license cc-by-sa) and a spreadsheet for the values to use in the cfg files. The plan is to support stock game, and realism overhaul, but I'm open to more support suggestions.

Feel free to contribute and make suggestions, specially in the spreadsheet:D

>BenjiGH

Maybe now with the full structure make sense I will make you a call when I need help, for now I'm almost only importing things to blender.

[rlin]

Would it be compatible in any way with the Realism Overhaul modpack?

[FreeThinker]

I love the focus for realism, it is looking very good.

[kunok]

Boy's I get a new job, far from my house, and I postponed the mod, then when I had time again, I was expecting to 1.1 so I don't learn the old parttools but it take too time, I was expecting it before Christmas. I'm currently learning how to testurice and making little attempts with unity. I expect to have an untextured model SOON TM

On 12/3/2016 at 6:39 PM, rlin said:

Would it be compatible in any way with the Realism Overhaul modpack?

Is that way intended, first with RO in mind then make an stockish cfg, RO is easier you only need to copy the real parameters, I have no idea how to

On 12/3/2016 at 10:12 PM, FreeThinker said:

I love the focus for realism, it is looking very good.

Thanks, I felt wrong the lack of love for this engine, this is a real production engine not a theoretical or an unfinished one. Lots of people here talks here about the nerva and doesn't know about this engine.

 

For some reason I didn't get replies from this thread.

[FreeThinker]

Hey, don't give up. I understand your frustration of the lack of attention. But if you allow me, I want to use your model as a replacement of the existing Solid Core Nuclear Reactor Engine (a.k.a. NERVA),

[_Augustus_]

Finally, we have parts for the UR-700!

[Gazpachian]

Alright, I don't know how far you've gotten on the untextured model in the past six hours, but I took the liberty of making a slightly more optimized version of the engine. Your CAD program doesn't like edge loops it seems! Anyways, I got it down to 4400 triangles while keeping the original appearance, it could probably be slimmed down even further for adding more pipes and doodads!

EDIT: Pull request is up on github!

Edited April 9, 2016 by Gazpachian

[rlin]

9 hours ago, kunok said:

Is that way intended, first with RO in mind then make an stockish cfg, RO is easier you only need to copy the real parameters, I have no idea how to

Exactly what do you mean by "I have no idea how to"? Maybe you don't know how to get put the real stats on the engine without causing problems with the stock install? If yes, you can contact the RO team and ask if they can make a Module Manager config.

[kunok]

15 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Hey, don't give up. I understand your frustration of the lack of attention. But if you allow me, I want to use your model as a replacement of the existing Solid Core Nuclear Reactor Engine (a.k.a. NERVA),

Was more a thing about my private life, it went to better but I have a lot of less time.

I would love to give you the engine when is finished, I like your mod . And you table for different propellants would be very useful for making the standalone version compatible with realfuels. Also

8 hours ago, Gazpachian said:

Alright, I don't know how far you've gotten on the untextured model in the past six hours, but I took the liberty of making a slightly more optimized version of the engine. Your CAD program doesn't like edge loops it seems! Anyways, I got it down to 4400 triangles while keeping the original appearance, it could probably be slimmed down even further for adding more pipes and doodads!

EDIT: Pull request is up on github!

Thanks, I will totally look into it, but I need to learn how to github Don't worry I was sleeping and that was in the to-do list, I was more like make an early working version and then improve it.

Pipes are good but there is a lack of real info of how they are in the real engine, there is two types of photos, the ones of a simplified model, and the other with a craziness of pipes and elements that I have no idea what they are like this photo http://www.astronautix.com/articles/sovermal.htm.

14 hours ago, _Augustus_ said:

Finally, we have parts for the UR-700!

That's the rd0411! is the next in the list. Probably will be just a upscaled version with a slightly different texture and better performance. If someone has an image or a diagram of how different it would be I can make a different model.

5 hours ago, rlin said:

Exactly what do you mean by "I have no idea how to"? Maybe you don't know how to get put the real stats on the engine without causing problems with the stock install? If yes, you can contact the RO team and ask if they can make a Module Manager config.

Was how to make it stockish I may have deleted the word without noticing, when I wrote that it was too late. There is some ratios of reduction of mass, size, etc for making something lookalike.

[Gazpachian]

5 minutes ago, kunok said:

Thanks, I will totally look into it, but I need to learn how to github Don't worry I was sleeping and that was in the to-do list, I was more like make an early working version and then improve it.

Pipes are good but there is a lack of real info of how they are in the real engine, there is two types of photos, the ones of a simplified model, and the other with a craziness of pipes and elements that I have no idea what they are like this photo http://www.astronautix.com/articles/sovermal.htm.

Yeah, I saw that more complex design as well while looking for reference photos. I think those add-ons may be for making the engine bi-modal, perhaps? In that case we have four models to consider, both the RD-0410 and RD-0411 in simple and bi-modal configurations. Shouldn't be too much work to get all that done, then we can throw in the OKB-456/OKB-670 nuclear ammonia rocket family for fun!

[rlin]

4 hours ago, kunok said:

Was how to make it stockish

Maybe you should scale down the stats until it seems right (and close to the LV-N's stats).

[Gazpachian]

31 minutes ago, rlin said:

Maybe you should scale down the stats until it seems right (and close to the LV-N's stats).

That's something already in progress.

The trick now is to fill in the blanks as to the performance difference between the RD-0410 and the NERVA.

[kunok]

@FreeThinker other thing I think you can if you want add this kind of engine as a Heterogeneous Solid Core Nuclear Reactor Engine as opposed to the homogeneous Solid Core Nuclear Reactor Engine (the nerva). I could give you info about the differences.

On 9/4/2016 at 2:21 PM, Gazpachian said:

I think those add-ons may be for making the engine bi-modal, perhaps?

No way, if my mechanical engineer intuition still works, I think it will be more to do with turbopump auxiliary systems, and to rotate or move the "green" parts that I think they are the hydraulic control of the fissile bars, you will need a combustion chamber in a bipropellant engine (by bimodal you can also talk about a nuclear engine that can work also a electric generator, but you were talking about bipropellant, no?) and there is no one. But there is still lots of things that I have no idea what they do, We could omit things.

 

On 9/4/2016 at 2:21 PM, Gazpachian said:

we can throw in the OKB-456/OKB-670 nuclear ammonia rocket family for fun

Well I was already thinking in making this mod into a general soviet nuclear engines mod. But I have no data of how they will be physically, I will dig and ask for more data. I will upload the OP with planned features, is not good currently.

On 9/4/2016 at 6:02 PM, rlin said:

Maybe you should scale down the stats until it seems right (and close to the LV-N's stats).

Scaling down is easy, is already done, but balancing is other question... And the stock version should be balanced.

On 9/4/2016 at 6:36 PM, Gazpachian said:

That's something already in progress.

About this, I like the scientific approach of using kPa but the game uses Atm or Bars for the presure in the cfg of the engines, so I think is counterproductive.

The ¿? atm is because I still have no idea what pressure to use in the third point

 

Talking about the model you give to me I merged it (tell me if I did something wrong), I liked and I see that I should make all the objects only one I learnt how to do (blender is so different to the industrial cad I use in the daily basis, currently catia). Your model has a problem tough, you broke the hexagon of the support, it will be easy to repair, I can do it myself. I will keep digging what are the differences between our models to improve my skills

Edited April 11, 2016 by kunok

[FreeThinker]

9 minutes ago, kunok said:

@FreeThinker other thing I think you can if you want add this kind of engine as a Heterogeneous Solid Core Nuclear Reactor Engine as opposed to the homogeneous Solid Core Nuclear Reactor Engine (the nerva). I could give you info about the differences.

 

Lol, I wasn't even aware there is a difference

[kunok]

44 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Lol, I wasn't even aware there is a difference

It just a difference in the distribution of the fissile material in the reactor bars, but the heterogeneous uses less fissile material and can be lighter and have better performance.

Short story (ask for a longer if you are interested I just don't have time today for translate the info) :

Nerva, the homogeneous, had graphite bars with the fissile (dioxide of uranium) material in it.

The soviet ones, the heterogeneous had separate bars for the fissile material and the moderator. And the fissile bars had varying concentrations of fissile material, using more in the cold parts and less in the hot ones.

Edited April 11, 2016 by kunok

[FreeThinker]

Yes that would be intresting, I ralso ead the Russian Solid Core Reactor could reach significantly high temperature that the NERVA, but what about the Timberwinds which were powerful enough as single stage ICMB rocket engines, they make NERVA look like primitive child toys

Edited April 11, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Gazpachian]

12 hours ago, kunok said:

No way, if my mechanical engineer intuition still works, I think it will be more to do with turbopump auxiliary systems, and to rotate or move the "green" parts that I think they are the hydraulic control of the fissile bars, you will need a combustion chamber in a bipropellant engine (by bimodal you can also talk about a nuclear engine that can work also a electric generator, but you were talking about bipropellant, no?) and there is no one. But there is still lots of things that I have no idea what they do, We could omit things.

I was actually talking about it working as an electric generator, but I should have been clearer about that I guess! I think I remember reading about the 0411 being slated for bimodal operation for a planned 90s soviet mars mission, with estimated readouts for power generation, required radiator area and everything. Of course this thread is now the third result when searching for the RD-4011 so sources are pretty scarce, but I'll see about finding that quote if necessary. With the 0410 allegedly being a functional prototype of the 0411 I can imagine bimodal ops as a considered possible extension to the former engine.

12 hours ago, kunok said:

Well I was already thinking in making this mod into a general soviet nuclear engines mod. But I have no data of how they will be physically, I will dig and ask for more data. I will upload the OP with planned features, is not good currently.

Oh, tell me about it. The only picture I've found is the line art on This site right here. What that allowed me was to figure out the relative placement of the engine bells to the reactor chamber, from there it's a matter of combining visual elements from the RD-0410 for the nuclear feel and the RD-170 for the four-nozzle piping arrangement. What confuses me a bit is the apparent side boosters in that line diagram, although the given initial thrust values seem to indicate that only the nuke engine would be active. It may be something like vernier thrusters, especially if the engine lacks gimbal (another detail lost in history, perhaps). For now I'll assume that the engine does gimbal moderately (maybe 1.2 degrees or so) since we have no information on the accuracy of the line diagram!

13 hours ago, kunok said:

About this, I like the scientific approach of using kPa but the game uses Atm or Bars for the presure in the cfg of the engines, so I think is counterproductive.

The ¿? atm is because I still have no idea what pressure to use in the third point

Alright, we'll stick to domain driven design decisions! If the config file wants data in a certain format, we'll use that format.

Well, is there a need to define a third pressure point? As far as I am aware specific impulse varies linearly as a function of pressure, so we just need two points to define the isp "curve". Sure, in real life you could have severe under-expansion happening that results in all manners of nastiness, but I'm not even sure solverengines/realfuels models this. In either case, I think two config points for pressure are fine as is.

13 hours ago, kunok said:

Talking about the model you give to me I merged it (tell me if I did something wrong), I liked and I see that I should make all the objects only one I learnt how to do (blender is so different to the industrial cad I use in the daily basis, currently catia). Your model has a problem tough, you broke the hexagon of the support, it will be easy to repair, I can do it myself. I will keep digging what are the differences between our models to improve my skills

I'm not sure I always follow best practices and I'm painfully aware I'm not as experienced in blender as I should be (especially in regards to low poly modeling and unity asset creation), so if you want to improve your skills there are way better places to learn from! Anyways, if you want to split the work load you can absolutely keep on creating the assets in catia and export them to blender and I'll tidy them up for you!

[Gazpachian]

12 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Yes that would be intresting, I ralso ead the Russian Solid Core Reactor could reach significantly high temperature that the NERVA, but what about the Timberwinds which were powerful enough as single stage ICMB rocket engines, they make NERVA look like primitive child toys

The soviets absolutely considered nuclear engines as ICBM engines, the only thing stopping them from doing a test flight was to my understanding worries about range safety (which led to the abolishment of that particular program in favor of others). As for the temperatures, you are absolutely right. The RD-0410 was rated for something like 3200K operating temperature over 10 minutes compared to the NERVA at 2361K (oddly specific since it's converted to Kelvin from Rankine). This would, all other things equal, mean about 16% better specific impulse (which the data sheets seem to agree with, more or less).

[FreeThinker]

22 minutes ago, Gazpachian said:

The soviets absolutely considered nuclear engines as ICBM engines, the only thing stopping them from doing a test flight was to my understanding worries about range safety (which led to the abolishment of that particular program in favor of others). As for the temperatures, you are absolutely right. The RD-0410 was rated for something like 3200K operating temperature over 10 minutes compared to the NERVA at 2361K (oddly specific since it's converted to Kelvin from Rankine). This would, all other things equal, mean about 16% better specific impulse (which the data sheets seem to agree with, more or less).

For KSPI-E I defined 5 techlevels for the Solid Core Nuclear Reactor. They start with with the early NERVA technology similar to stock nucclear engine and enf with TimberWind performance characteristics. with maximum achivable core temperature (3250K) and power output. They enable you to build an Aplollo Mission SSTO  with Drop Tanks in RSS. Although the Timberwind energine were capable of producing a lot of heat, they only have a limited fuel capacity and will not be able to run for very long. Exactly how long, is a mistery, but it would be less than an hour so I heard.

Edited April 12, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Gazpachian]

58 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

For KSPI-E I defined 5 techlevels for the Solid Core Nuclear Reactor. They start with with the early NERVA technology similar to stock nucclear engine and enf with TimberWind performance characteristics. with maximum achivable core temperature (3250K) and power output. They enable you to build an Aplollo Mission SSTO  with Drop Tanks in RSS. Although the Timberwind energine were capable of producing a lot of heat, they only have a limited fuel capacity and will not be able to run for very long. Exactly how long, is a mistery, but it would be less than an hour so I heard.

Still, an hour of operation would probably be enough for most moon missions at the stated thrust and efficiency. Imagine a manned moon mission with a launch mass of less than one kiloton! The planned soviet ICBM variants were high thrust, low specific impulse ammonia+alcohol engines and so would probably be considered way less advanced than the Timberwind series, since their atmospheric isp wasn't even close to the 780s wikipedia gives for the 250 version. Without knowing what else occupies the other solid core nodes I imagine the OKB-456/OKB-700 would be near node 2 (more exotic than the NERVA but still an early 60's tech) and the RD-0410/RD-0411 are probably node 3 and 4, respectively (higher operating temp -> more stringent engineering requirements/higher tech, 0411 having overall better theoretical performance than it's sibling even if it was never actually built like the 0410 was). this would of course be at your discretion I imagine!

[kunok]

21 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Yes that would be intresting, I ralso ead the Russian Solid Core Reactor could reach significantly high temperature that the NERVA, but what about the Timberwinds which were powerful enough as single stage ICMB rocket engines, they make NERVA look like primitive child toys

8 hours ago, Gazpachian said:

The soviets absolutely considered nuclear engines as ICBM engines, the only thing stopping them from doing a test flight was to my understanding worries about range safety (which led to the abolishment of that particular program in favor of others). As for the temperatures, you are absolutely right. The RD-0410 was rated for something like 3200K operating temperature over 10 minutes compared to the NERVA at 2361K (oddly specific since it's converted to Kelvin from Rankine). This would, all other things equal, mean about 16% better specific impulse (which the data sheets seem to agree with, more or less).

7 hours ago, Gazpachian said:

Still, an hour of operation would probably be enough for most moon missions at the stated thrust and efficiency. Imagine a manned moon mission with a launch mass of less than one kiloton! The planned soviet ICBM variants were high thrust, low specific impulse ammonia+alcohol engines and so would probably be considered way less advanced than the Timberwind series, since their atmospheric isp wasn't even close to the 780s wikipedia gives for the 250 version. Without knowing what else occupies the other solid core nodes I imagine the OKB-456/OKB-700 would be near node 2 (more exotic than the NERVA but still an early 60's tech) and the RD-0410/RD-0411 are probably node 3 and 4, respectively (higher operating temp -> more stringent engineering requirements/higher tech, 0411 having overall better theoretical performance than it's sibling even if it was never actually built like the 0410 was). this would of course be at your discretion I imagine!

For the icmb nuclear engines and others with almost no info, they were developed or was just the 60's equivalent of a powerpoint?. Because if there wasn't even a real engineering study they aren't realistic at all, they could be overoptimistic about the limits of the technology, or simply ignore lots of the problems.

8 hours ago, Gazpachian said:

I was actually talking about it working as an electric generator, but I should have been clearer about that I guess! I think I remember reading about the 0411 being slated for bimodal operation for a planned 90s soviet mars mission, with estimated readouts for power generation, required radiator area and everything. Of course this thread is now the third result when searching for the RD-4011 so sources are pretty scarce, but I'll see about finding that quote if necessary. With the 0410 allegedly being a functional prototype of the 0411 I can imagine bimodal ops as a considered possible extension to the former engine.

Well as far I know that would be a derivative, not the rd0410, they are still claiming they can do that, just they don't have funds. They had lots of reactor's in space, and they have a working nuclear engine so the mix could be done.

8 hours ago, Gazpachian said:

Well, is there a need to define a third pressure point? As far as I am aware specific impulse varies linearly as a function of pressure, so we just need two points to define the isp "curve". Sure, in real life you could have severe under-expansion happening that results in all manners of nastiness, but I'm not even sure solverengines/realfuels models this. In either case, I think two config points for pressure are fine as is.

The third point and more are precisely to simulate the underexpansion and other effects, but even the second (the sea level performance) is a total guest. Now that I think I should calculate the pressure of the chamber and make the numbers, it shouldn't be that hard.

8 hours ago, Gazpachian said:

Anyways, if you want to split the work load you can absolutely keep on creating the assets in catia and export them to blender and I'll tidy them up for you!

Part of the problem that stopped my work in this mod is that then I was working with Autocad/inventor and they allowed me to use for my models in my spare time and I changed employ now I work in catia and I'm not allowed anymore (and have less free time due to the work being far from house). So I think it will be more productive if I do the work in blender, is just so different from the parametric tools of the cad system, I need measures! There was some sort of plugging to use parametric in blender, I should try it sometime. Maybe if I do diagrams in 2D so I can export it in blender and we can use them to do more models, the engines are basically revolution forms so they shouldn't be that difficult to do.

We should look for the next "victim", define a list of realistic engines (or at least engines that we know how they would be)

Should I put you being a collaborator, a co-author? I'm new to this kind of collaborations

[Gazpachian]

15 hours ago, kunok said:

For the icmb nuclear engines and others with almost no info, they were developed or was just the 60's equivalent of a powerpoint?. Because if there wasn't even a real engineering study they aren't realistic at all, they could be overoptimistic about the limits of the technology, or simply ignore lots of the problems.

As far as I know there were no test firings or anything of the OKB nuclear family and no engine was ever built. The project was allegedly in development for about two years, so I think they had plenty of time to write it off on grounds of being unfeasible rather than just very unsafe as was the case. Still way behind the 0410 when it comes to level of realisation obviously, but at it's core the technology was individually studied by both Glusko, Korolev and others. Funnily enough, a very large portion of articles on the soviet nuclear programme are written in Spanish, so at least I finally get some use out of seven years of Spanish classes: Link 1 Link 2. I'm guessing you've already read most of the articles I'm finding, but I've obviously missed them since they include lots of info I only speculated on (such as the question of gimbal vs. vernier).

So, in short: a well studied 60's powerpoint, shot down in favor of hypergolic fuels since they were more well studied and the main initial application of the tech was to be ICBMs, which you don't want to blow up needlessly in your own territory.

15 hours ago, kunok said:

Part of the problem that stopped my work in this mod is that then I was working with Autocad/inventor and they allowed me to use for my models in my spare time and I changed employ now I work in catia and I'm not allowed anymore (and have less free time due to the work being far from house). So I think it will be more productive if I do the work in blender, is just so different from the parametric tools of the cad system, I need measures! There was some sort of plugging to use parametric in blender, I should try it sometime. Maybe if I do diagrams in 2D so I can export it in blender and we can use them to do more models, the engines are basically revolution forms so they shouldn't be that difficult to do.

We should look for the next "victim", define a list of realistic engines (or at least engines that we know how they would be)

Should I put you being a collaborator, a co-author? I'm new to this kind of collaborations

You can switch to isometric viewpoints in blender, use images or other models as reference and lock your transforms to one axis for revolution forms, that's more or less how I redid the topology of your model. But if parametric editing is your thing, go for that! There are more guides out there for manual manipulation editing of course, but I'm sure you'll get by either way!

Well, there's the proposed N-1 Nuclear variants (A, V-B, A-F and V) each with different stats. These would be deployed in clusters of 20-40 engines, depending on the launch vessel (because more boosters is EXACTLY how Korolev built rockets). Again, from what I can tell these are early studies mostly based on mass estimates and the earlier works on the ICBM nuclear engines so information on them will be scarce. In fact, holding anything realted to nuclear propulsion up to the standards of viability testing of the 0410 is sort of impossible! Other than those I'm sure there were some other projects considered, maybe a liquid core engine or something akin to that which never got close to leaving the drawing board. We could go looking, but between the two RD-041x variants, the OKB line and the N-1 upper stages there are eight engines/engine clusters already.

Just sign me on as a collaborator for now, that's fine by me! It's your mod, I just want to see it happen!

EDIT: I've done some initial work on the OKB-456, just to figure out if visual coherency with the RD-0410 is attainable. Early WIP below, thoughts and ideas welcome:

Edited April 13, 2016 by Gazpachian