Aerotoxic syndrome on airliners

[rtxoff]

OMG, i'm never flying again beside with Boeing 787 which uses no bleed air for cabin pressure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerotoxic_syndrome

It also seems like air companies want to suppress the problematic with it.

[Streetwind]

And vaccines cause autism too, right?

Sorry pal, but the very article you linked states quite clearly (with cited sources) that no investigation has ever been able to corrobate this hypothesis. While it's inherently possible, due to the nature of the system, that contaminants could enter the cabin air feed, such a thing would require a technical fault in the feed system. Considering how religiously planes are maintained, the chance for such a thing to happen is probably lower than being hit by lightning.

Also, every day you drive by car, your car can potentially ingest exhaust gases from cars driving in front of it and use it to ventilate the inside. Better permanently uninstall your ventilation and AC equipment, or you're gonna die!!!!111one

[rtxoff]

And vaccines cause autism too, right?

Non valid argument because it has nothing to do with this topic.

Sorry pal, but the very article you linked states quite clearly (with cited sources) that no investigation has ever been able to corrobate this hypothesis. While it's inherently possible, due to the nature of the system, that contaminants could enter the cabin air feed, such a thing would require a technical fault in the feed system. Considering how religiously planes are maintained, the chance for such a thing to happen is probably lower than being hit by lightning.

The problem is just that incidents like that happen just much more often then the chance they say they should happen. The British Civil Aviation Authority registered 1050 cases in 2006 with contaminated air inside planes. Also there was some test by a group of German reporters which took samples of the air inside the plane and analyzed it with fatal results. Tricresyl phosphate was detected in all probes and some of them had considerable concentrations. Tricresyl phosphate is a nerve gas and shouldn't be there at all no matter the concentration.

Also, every day you drive by car, your car can potentially ingest exhaust gases from cars driving in front of it and use it to ventilate the inside. Better permanently uninstall your ventilation and AC equipment, or you're gonna die!!!!111one

Again non valid argument, completely off topic.

[ZetaX]

The problem is just that incidents like that happen just much more often then the chance they say they should happen. The British Civil Aviation Authority registered 1050 cases in 2006 with contaminated air inside planes. Also there was some test by a group of German reporters which took samples of the air inside the plane and analyzed it with fatal results. Tricresyl phosphate was detected in all probes and some of them had considerable concentrations. Tricresyl phosphate is a nerve gas and shouldn't be there at all no matter the concentration.

Nonsense. You can find about anything anywhere if you allow very small concentrations, be it some phophates, polonium or oil. The amount is very relevant, and so far you have failed to show any evidence that this is any more than the aforementioned autism hoax.

[Robotengineer]

From the article:

Repeated investigations of such claims have failed to document cabin air has ever contained contaminants which exceeded known safe levels.

So it's basically nothing.

[rtxoff]

Well maybe you guys want also accuse the all the sick pilots and BBC talking nonsense:

[Pixel of Life]

1050 cases in 2006 with contaminated air inside planes

There are roughly 100 thousand scheduled commercial flights every day. That's 36.5 million flights a year. The probability of this happening on your flight is 0.002%.

[sgt_flyer]

One of the problems with these kind of threads based on something with little evidences, is that we'll soon have someone start to call conspiracy and that companies are lobbying to hide the truth. And those accusations would be again made with little to no proof of that which can derail a thread fast.

Keep in mind that the problem, if it exists, is much more likely to affect the planes crew members, which spends a good chunk of their lives within those planes, whereas passengers don't travel on such regular basis.

So, if a condition devellops outside of nocebo effects, those people would be the among the first diagnosed.

[rtxoff]

There are roughly 100 thousand scheduled commercial flights every day. That's 36.5 million flights a year. The probability of this happening on your flight is 0.002%.

I'm pretty sure they only counted the flights going to or from British territory. They can't have the reports from all the flights in the world.

Also in the video they say a fume event happens once in every 2000 flights.

[magnemoe]

There are roughly 100 thousand scheduled commercial flights every day. That's 36.5 million flights a year. The probability of this happening on your flight is 0.002%.

The serious issue is lots of people often from all over the world tight together and recycled air.

Not fun if any of them has airborne diseases

[ZetaX]

Well maybe you guys want also accuse the all the sick pilots and BBC talking nonsense:

The same way we accuse all those claiming to have contracted autism from vaccinations, yes. Provide actual (this word includes scientific and non-anecdotal) evidence.

[jwenting]

One of the problems with these kind of threads based on something with little evidences, is that we'll soon have someone start to call conspiracy and that companies are lobbying to hide the truth. And those accusations would be again made with little to no proof of that which can derail a thread fast.

The conspiracy theorist already did just that in his post which started the thread...

[rtxoff]

What is a conspiracy theorist? Maybe someone can explain the definition of that. People throwing words around here without knowing its meaning.

[WestAir]

I think the largest risk to your health on an airplane is the person sitting next to you. I've seen people take off their socks and shoes and rest their feet on the headrest in front of them. I've seen people vigorously picking their nose like they have a thousand year itch. I once spent the night at an outstation because a passenger projectile vomited mid flight causing 3 other passengers to vomit after them and a crew member to get so nauseous he stayed in the lav the rest of the flight.

Being in public is a health hazard because people are disgusting, not because modern machinery is dangerous. The article should be titled "Reasons why it's unsanitary to be near people" - maybe then it would be believable.

[Darnok]

What is a conspiracy theorist? Maybe someone can explain the definition of that. People throwing words around here without knowing its meaning.

Better people who use this should first explain when it was used for the first time

[Moach]

OK, guys - Please do not turn this into a conspiracy theory vs. skepticism duel -- that's just, uh... lame - yeah, that's the technical term for it... lame...

it's not very agreeable and it is bordering on a breech of forum rules (the "no politics please, thank you" rule, that is) -- so leave the "I think they're hiding stuff from us!!" arguments for whatever's left of what once was the "history channel" and let us do without turning on one another over a "I'm more right'er than you!" contest... those rarely ever lead to positive insights and more often than not don't fare any better than ultimately becoming the stuff that fills the carcass of a locked thread...

...and locked this shall be, (not now, of course - not YET) if it continues down the path I sense it to be headed down -- no harm thus far, but the "overtones" of this thread has my spider-sense tingling somewhy...

so, no tangible evidence of the case being true -- well, tough break -- "airplane farts" is then a subject that perhaps needs more research, that's my belief -meaning...

Bear with me* - Upon the case of there being credible claims that "airplane farts" may happen, I as King Commander of The Earth and All Things Upon It mandate that an unbiased group of individuals shall be assembled immediately (Ideally, comprised chiefly of forum-folk from the Internet, plus some Scienceâ„¢ people) - And this grand fellowship shall be encumbered the quest to delve into the matter wholemindedly and thus produce an undisputable decree on how we should rule the Earth upon the implications of their findings!

* I have a BEAR with me, so listen!

Earth King! -- Excelsior!!

*end scene*

that's just to demonstrate, by a crudely humorous mean of Reductio ad Absurdum, how I fear this debate will turn out if left unchecked, as judged by extrapolation of its growingly rueless trajectory of the nonce...

which is my inelegantly long-winded, arguably effective, unavoidably creative way of saying: "Easy there, Cowboys!"

be nice to each other or I'll have the Moderating Hammer of Topics Forever Locked swinging here way sooner than it'd take a small airliner to pump itself full of poisonous jet-fart-fumes...

Cheers!

Edited September 25, 2015 by Moach

[wx7]

the earth is flat

[RainDreamer]

This is just my experience, but as someone who flew back and forth from Asia to North America (16-18 hours flight) frequently in just a few years, I have never experienced this.

We will also have to question if there is any disparities between first class and economy class passengers to see if it is really just psychological. Being crammed in with a bunch of people and constrained for a long period of time in one place with little privacy and personal space can make it an unpleasant experience to say the least.

[Bill Phil]

Planes are statistically safer than cars.... But for some reason that fact is often forgotten.

[Moach]

I've been in airplanes several times and enjoyed the ride (dude, you're FLYING!) thoroughly on each and every instance

side effects have so far included dryness of my airways (at FL350+, no wonder), a one-time case of "underpressured inner ear" that lasted an uncomfortable couple of hours until I managed to make it go "pop" (must have been related to the pack of cookies I selfishly munched empty during most of the descent/landing on that flight) - and uh.... well, so far, no "death" or any death-related symptoms...

even my dog, (my avatar loosely based on her) who flew on my lap (long story) and slept through most of the adventure of immigrating to Canada had no complaints about that fantastic Flying-Man-Machine, at least not after the point she became more or less generally convinced that the whole thing was not a most elaborate plot to get her to The Vet - and also took no part in schemes leading to the water-torture of what men call "Bath"

she was kinda digging it by the time we turned final approach on runway 26R of CYVR...

another very enjoyable flight...

tho I'm biased to say, since I'm really into airplanes and flying things in general... (most passengers seem slightly unsettled by my giggling through moderate/heavy turbulence (quote ex-wife: "YOU FIND THIS FUNNY?!!" -- "yep! - lol!" - regarding a brief moment of near weightlessness aboard an A330-200))

anyways, flew several times.... engines were present in the majority of those flights... some hours of sailplane training to boast of, no poison gasses there (only those provided by the crew)

...haven't died ONCE!

but most relevant of arguments that come to mind:

don't airplanes have noxious gas detectors installed? -- by law?

also -- with 300+ folks from all over and beyond aboard... may I dare poke at the little germaphobe in all of us by reminding that -- the engines and mythical engineer's-career-ending-blunder fumes therefrom are perhaps the LEAST worrisome of airborne things that could make you sick aboard a commercial airplane....

eeew, Globalized Cooties

grosse....

Edited September 25, 2015 by Moach

[ZetaX]

I am also wondering how stuff from turbines would come into the air. The air indeed comes from the turbines, but that is obviously before any fuel(-likes) are mixed with it, and surely those pesky fuels won't just start ignoring physics and begin to move against an airspeed of 800km/h (or more inside). If it happens later, i.e. at the stage of heating or compressing it, then I would feel more concerned about the turbine itself (after all, there seems to be a leak into the chambers of that thing), because turbine failure tends to cause more severe consequences than just a heavy cough.

In regard to personal anecdotes: I once flew with a smaller plane close (for such a thing, not in absolute standards) to a hurricane. This caused some fog on the ground inside the cabin (from both the looks and smell of it nothing else than normal water vapors), and the winds outside made the plane tilt a lot, resulting in the fog wobbling around a lot. It was quite interesting to watch (despite the weird feelings caused by the winds outside).

[rtxoff]

I flew quite a few times in my life and almost every time i can smell burned kerosene right after they start the engines. I don't think i imagined this. Normally pilots must turn off bleed air while starting the engines however still the smell somehow gets into the passenger cabin.

[peadar1987]

I am also wondering how stuff from turbines would come into the air. The air indeed comes from the turbines, but that is obviously before any fuel(-likes) are mixed with it, and surely those pesky fuels won't just start ignoring physics and begin to move against an airspeed of 800km/h (or more inside). If it happens later, i.e. at the stage of heating or compressing it, then I would feel more concerned about the turbine itself (after all, there seems to be a leak into the chambers of that thing), because turbine failure tends to cause more severe consequences than just a heavy cough.

In regard to personal anecdotes: I once flew with a smaller plane close (for such a thing, not in absolute standards) to a hurricane. This caused some fog on the ground inside the cabin (from both the looks and smell of it nothing else than normal water vapors), and the winds outside made the plane tilt a lot, resulting in the fog wobbling around a lot. It was quite interesting to watch (despite the weird feelings caused by the winds outside).

It would be stuff like lubricating oil from the compressor, and not jet exhaust.

**edit** Not that I'm endorsing the OP's theory. I totally disagree that there is some sort of fundamental problem from flying. Flight crews are among the most intensively healt-tested professions out there, primarily because of radiation exposure, admittedly, but if there was a genuine issue with contamination inside the cabin that was making occasional fliers ill, flight crew, who fly orders of magnitude more frequently, would have health problems that were extremely widespread and obvious.

Edited September 25, 2015 by peadar1987

[Darnok]

don't airplanes have noxious gas detectors installed? -- by law?

They have, but they are not magical they are human made, and humans for money can do many bad things.

How do they work, do they have some fixed limits implemented in device? Something like in Volkswagen?

The Volkswagen emissions scandal explained: The chief executive has quit after the firm admitted diesel cars were designed to cheat in tests. How did the ‘defeat device’ work and what damage was done?

http://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/sep/23/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-explained-diesel-cars

[rtxoff]

Also they stated in the video that it does not affect all people, only some that have a weak liver function. While normal livers are able to get the small amount of bad substances out of the body in people with livers lacking a certain enzyme the poisons are accumulated slowly in them poisoning them slowly more and more over time. I think this is a serious issue which can be easily solved on new airplanes as the 787 shows us.