Anyone here use a Das Keyboard?

[katateochi]

Hey guys, I'm looking at getting myself a Das Keyboard to replace yet another keyboard that I've abused to death.  I'm pretty sure that it will suit me (coder and gamer) but I wanted to get some feedback from someone who actually has one and uses it in anger (or at least under duress).  In particular I can't decide if I should go for the Cherry MX brown switches (softer) or the more "clacky" Cherry MX blue.  They say that the blue is good for increased typing speeds, but I'm just not sure if I want that much clack! 

Other Q's I've got.  
- How easy is it to clean? do they keys come off easily or do you feel like you're forcing a flimsy plastic clip each to you take them off?
- Is it as tough as it looks in the pics.  Could I defend my office with it?!  - something I look for in IO hardware
- Any Linux users know if the media keys work out of the box, or if that requires some key-mapping.

Thanks!

[Camacha]

My experience is with the Razer BlackWidow Stealth (Cherry Brown-ish) and normal version (Cherry Blue-ish). I bought the Stealth version because people scared me with stories about the noise. In hindsight, I probably wanted the normal, more clicky version. The feedback of the Brown-ish keys is just not what I expected from a mechanical keyboard. Do not get me wrong, it does type very nicely, but not being able to feel the exact moment the key is actuated kind of goes against why I wanted a mechanical keyboard.

That being said, some people cannot stand a clicky keyboard and love the Stealth version. Other people feel the response of the Brown keys is not ideal and are in the clicky camp. It really appears to be a matter of preference. Ideally you should go to a shop that has both to simply press the keys and get a feel for what's what.

[cantab]

I use a Gigabyte Aivia Osmium with Cherry MX Brown switches. One of the cheapest mechanicals around but still a quality bit of kit, way better than membrane junk. Sadly I haven't really trained myself to type lightly like the brown switches should allow because I still have to use the junk at work. I have had compatibility issues and ongoing glitches with it in Linux though, though nothing show-stopper. A lot of the gaming-oriented mechanical keyboards don't fully comply with standard keyboard specs, they assume users will be on Windows and install the special software, but I would expect better of the Das Keyboard.

Browns are by most accounts good all-rounders, they offer the tactile sensation for typing but have the single actuation/release point which can help for gaming. Unlike Camacha I *can* feel the exact point of actuation on mine, though it's not in-your-face obvious. I still bottom-out all the time when typing and that is I think what makes the noise more than clicky switches would (barring the IBM ones!) and others in the house have complained about it. You can fit damping o-rings to soften and quiet it, but some say that just encourages the bad habit.

I've not been hands-on with Blues at all mind you, but I have looked at the Razer Greens which are supposed to be similar and I felt the click sounded "fake", a weak tinny noise that gave the impression it was artificially tacked-on and not an integral part of the mechanism. (Which is not entirely true, but that's how it felt.)

[Camacha]

23 minutes ago, cantab said:

Unlike Camacha I *can* feel the exact point of actuation on mine, though it's not in-your-face obvious. I still bottom-out all the time when typing and that is I think what makes the noise more than clicky switches would (barring the IBM ones!) and others in the house have complained about it.

Let me clarify myself: if you take care and slowly press a button you can feel the actuation point. It just is a lot less defined than the clicky type keys. It is subtle enough to get lost when typing or gaming normally. The first time I tried it I was pretty disappointed that it all felt so much alike the rubber dome I have. Only after using it for a while, you start noticing subtle differences, but nothing like an actually clicky key. I had the exact same experience with different brand and make keyboards: without knowing they are actually mechanical, I would have never guessed.

And indeed, bottoming out makes quite a lot more noise than any clicky key will. If you take care to only press the keys past the actuation point, you can type very subtly. The noisiest part is the spring loaded space bar returning to its neutral position.

I've not been hands-on with Blues at all mind you, but I have looked at the Razer Greens which are supposed to be similar and I felt the click sounded "fake", a weak tinny noise that gave the impression it was artificially tacked-on and not an integral part of the mechanism. (Which is not entirely true, but that's how it felt.)

I mostly disagree there. You can both hear and feel the click on the exact point the key actuates.

[katateochi]

1 hour ago, cantab said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Camacha said:

 

Thank you both for your answers, although I'm still not able to make up my mind!! As you say Camacha the best thing would be to go and actually try one, but unfortunately I live in the middle of rural nowhere (there's literally one computer hardware shop within an hours drive, I sometimes amuse myself by going in there and asking if they have hardware I know they've not even heard of).  

I'm a bit wary of razer keyboards, I got rather burnt (bitten maybe) by their Tarantula, I wore through two of them in as many years. Love their mice though! Had a copperhead that lasted over 10 years (until drowned it with tea).

I'll probably keep umming and ahing and then flip a coin and end up wishing I'd got the other. ah so...if I do the opposite to the coin flip....no wait...I don't think it works like that

 

[cantab]

2 hours ago, Camacha said:

Let me clarify myself: if you take care and slowly press a button you can feel the actuation point. It just is a lot less defined than the clicky type keys. It is subtle enough to get lost when typing or gaming normally. The first time I tried it I was pretty disappointed that it all felt so much alike the rubber dome I have. Only after using it for a while, you start noticing subtle differences, but nothing like an actually clicky key.

I'd say you're right that MX Browns feel not dissimilar to rubber domes, but they act differently. An MX Brown actuates when it yields to pressure, but a rubber dome only actuates after that. Maybe this similarity does impede me from typing on my mechanical with less bottoming-out, compared to if I had something that felt very different.

2 hours ago, katateochi said:

unfortunately I live in the middle of rural nowhere (there's literally one computer hardware shop within an hours drive

You could order a "switch sampler". They're usually one of each of the main Cherry MX switches mounted on a board with keycaps. No function but they mean you can get some idea how the different switches feel before committing to buy a keyboard. Cost about ten-15 dollars.

Edited January 26, 2016 by cantab

[Camacha]

24 minutes ago, cantab said:

An MX Brown actuates when it yields to pressure, but a rubber dome only actuates after that.

Agreed. A rubber dome actuates at the bottom of the key movement - you have to hit the bottom or something close to it to type a letter. Browns have a (somewhat soggy) resistance early on, then after a slight bump resistance quickly fades away. That is also why you punch through relatively easy. It is akin to rubber dome, though the resistance is encountered at a different point (high for Browns versus low for rubber dome). Blues break resistance with a crisp click, which is the exact actuation point.

I will likely be testing a Razer Blackwidow with the Blue-ish keys, so I am curious how what works out in practice. Feedback is the main concern, noise the second. I need to be able to type at night without people complaining.

[Elthy]

Why do you limit yourself to a "Das Keyboard"? There are lots of other mechanical keyboards out there, since the switches (almost) all come from Cherry they have similary qualitys in feeling. You should choose according to the other features you would want.

To answer your first question: As far as i know the mounting of all keys with MX-switches is the same, they are simply put on the plastic cross shaped thing you can see here. Getting them of that thing is easy with a tool that often comes prepacked with the keyboard, only the large keys like "space" are harder since there often is some other stabilizing mechanism below them. I cleaned my keys (of a Q-Pad MK.80) several times by taking them of and soak them in water with dish-cleaner and then letting them dry.

[Camacha]

7 hours ago, Elthy said:

As far as i know the mounting of all keys with MX-switches is the same, they are simply put on the plastic cross shaped thing you can see here. Getting them of that thing is easy with a tool that often comes prepacked with the keyboard, only the large keys like "space" are harder since there often is some other stabilizing mechanism below them. I cleaned my keys (of a Q-Pad MK.80) several times by taking them of and soak them in water with dish-cleaner and then letting them dry.

Some keyboards use spring loaded caps in certain places. Those are likely to be a pain to re-attach. Be wary for those

[katateochi]

On 26/01/2016 at 2:40 AM, cantab said:

You could order a "switch sampler". They're usually one of each of the main Cherry MX switches mounted on a board with keycaps. No function but they mean you can get some idea how the different switches feel before committing to buy a keyboard. Cost about ten-15 dollars.

oh! didn't know those existed.  hmmm that's probably the thing to do. Thanks for telling me about that.

On 26/01/2016 at 3:15 AM, Camacha said:

I will likely be testing a Razer Blackwidow with the Blue-ish keys, so I am curious how what works out in practice. Feedback is the main concern, noise the second. I need to be able to type at night without people complaining.

Let me know how that one works. Sound is a factor for me too for same reasons. 

On 26/01/2016 at 7:48 AM, Elthy said:

Why do you limit yourself to a "Das Keyboard"? There are lots of other mechanical keyboards out there, since the switches (almost) all come from Cherry they have similary qualitys in feeling. You should choose according to the other features you would want.

Well I used to be quite razer fan boy, so I'd probably have defaulted to one of theirs in the past but I was unimpressed by their Tarantula keyboard and (sad to say) I think they've lost some of the build quality they used to have (based on my experiences with their mice).  I had a copperhead way back, when they were a pretty new company, that lasted over 10 years and I used to game much more back then.  Since it's unfortunate encounter with a cup of tea I've gone through a couple of their other mice and not been as impressed.  I had a Lachesis  for a bit and now I've got an Ouroboros which I've got to send back because after less than a year it's developed a fault in the left click.  Not to mention the razer synapse software is just nasty! 

I like the look of the Das keyboards and they're quite minimal, not great hulking desk-space-eaters like some gaming keyboards (especially the ones with tons of extra keys). It's got a simple set of media keys which is nice and all I want, and I can never find my ruler (the detachable lift is also a ruler).  Also they don't have "special" software like synapse which I take as a plus. 

 

Thanks for the info guys. most helpful.  I think I'm going to go for the Brown, but I'll probably take @cantab's suggestion and get a sampler set.

[TonyC]

I personally prefer the keyboards with a numpad, and with hard keys which make sound. I can feel very clearly when I've pressed it, which is good. My keyboard is the same as when I got my first computer, 10 years ago , praise Logitech ! Most of the letters are worn out though.

Edited January 27, 2016 by MegaUZI

[FancyMouse]

Be aware that blue is really, really loud. If you live/work with someone, that might be a nontrivial problem.

Brown is a reasonable medium-ish switch - still a little bit clicky unlike red/black, but not as noisy as blue. That's my suggestion to other people who wants to buy their first mechanic if they don't have special requirement.

If you have a chance, you really need to try out all switches and understand their differences. Reading never replaces feeling. Finding a shop or getting a sampler would be really really helpful finding what you really need (I have a sampler myself).

The keyboard I now use on a daily basis is a RealForce capacitor. Comfortable for coding, quiet, and lasts long. A little pricy but that's less of my concern. I also do some gaming (not KSP) with red switches but that game has special requirement so not quite relevant here.

Source: I've tried all the keys/switches I mentioned.

[katateochi]

15 hours ago, MegaUZI said:

I personally prefer the keyboards with a numpad

absolutely! a lack of a numpad is only acceptable on a laptop! 

thanks @FancyMouse, yeah I think blue would be too noisy for my taste nevermind anyone else!

This was quite helpful http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide and this;

 

Brown and red have the lowest actuation force which I think would suit my style of use and I'd prefer the tactile bump of the brown over the linear red.  Red's seem to be aimed more at gaming which sadly isn't my primary use these days  So pretty sure brown is my choice.  

 

 

[katateochi]

@Camacha, @cantab, @Elthy, @MegaUZI, @FancyMouse Hey guys!! Thanks for your input and suggestions.  My MX Brown Das Keyboard has arrived!! (actually couple days ago, but then various effluvia hit a number of fans and I forgot to post this)

Very pleased with it. It is a hefty device (could well be used for self defence), but nice and compact so no wasted desk space.   
The click on the brown switches is very subtle, but it's there, just enough to give feedback.  That was the right choice for me!
Media keys just worked in Linux without any messing about and that volume dial is really nice to use.

My only criticism of it is the riser bar (which is also a ruler, because ?) doesn't have any grip and my desk (although it doesn't look it) is pretty smooth so it did slip about a bit.  But I actually wanted a little more raise so I just ripped some rubber feet of something else and stuck them to the riser and all's good. 
oh and my other problem with it is that my poor brain is now having a hard time keeping up with my fingers! 

Time to hit http://zty.pe/  and see how I fair!
 

[Camacha]

It took me a little while, but I finally received my Razer Blackwidow with Green (Cherry MX Blue-ish) keys. Noise really does not seem to be a huge issue. It might even be a little bit less noisy than the Orange (Cherry MX Brown-ish), since the obvious feedback means you do not push keys down to the end stop that easily. More click, but less thumping. The clicking seems very doable too, but we will see how that goes. I was pretty happy about the Oranges when typing, but felt feedback while gaming could be a little more defined. The Oranges do seem to provide a little more resistance when typing, though it is hard to describe the difference exactly.

I am curious to see how I feel about them in a week or two So far, I love it.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Camacha

[Camacha]

Update report. I have been using the keyboard for about a month now, enabling me to make a good and thorough comparison between the two, and absolutely love the clicky keys. They are much more defined than the Brown-ish keys, which is great for typing and gaming. The noise really is not an issue at all. No one seems to be bothered by it and I too feel the sound is an addition, rather than a nuisance. The keyboard with the Brown-ish keys will be sold.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Camacha