1.1.3- Having Terrible Time

[Superfluous J]

18 minutes ago, Laie said:

watch your time-to-apoapsis (you'll need an information mod for this)

Not strictly true (though I am a huge proponent of this type of mod). If you switch to Map Mode you can click your Ap and see both its height and distance in time. Of course, you can't stage in map mode (without another mod) and when you switch back to your ship view to stage and then back to Map Mode you'll have to re-click the Ap to get the information again.

Unrelated to the topic at hand, these kinds of UI/UX issues are exactly why I'm a huge proponent of informational and added control mods.

Edited June 25, 2016 by 5thHorseman

[cantab]

 

KSP has a steep early leaning curve. In many ways it's not a difficult game, but there is a lot to learn, there's no getting away from that.

You come from a flight sim background. Imagine you are a total novice to a flight sim and you know virtually nothing about how aeroplanes fly. You pull up and don't understand why your plane is actually dropping. You want to turn, so you use the rudder, and wonder why it's so rubbish. Your plane starts spinning all over the place and nothing you try stops it. Well that kind of lack of knowledge is how most total novices are at KSP! Of course you've got loads to learn.

[Green Baron]

Just now, 5thHorseman said:

 

Unrelated to the topic at hand, these kinds of UI/UX issues are exactly why I'm a huge proponent of informational and added control mods.

Yep, and joint reeinforcements and a decent rocket parts pack.

But sense of achievement first :-)

 

[pincushionman]

Can't speak to everything, but...

5 hours ago, ghost_sox said:

Simple Orbit...

It takes me 4 to 7 tries to get a descent orbit.
On one attempt,  I'll be burning horizonally just fine but the periapsis raises sooo slooooww.    Then the apoapsis begins climbing very fast and next thing I know,  my apoapsis is halfway to Mun while the periapsis is only 65km.

This is hard. The key is adding more horizontal velocity during your initial climb, so your trajectory is flatter when you do your circularization. This will mean that burn is done closer to prograde the whole time, which reduces the chance for Ap to go screaming out. If you gravity turn such that you're about 45 degrees by 8-12 km, and mostly flat above 35 km or so, you'll actually do most of your circularization (raising Pe) during the climbout burn rather than at apoapsis, and you're circularization burn will be real short (which also helps). It's hard to do without going to far and flipping out, though; I've only very recently gotten comfortable doing it myself.

Also, don't overdo your thrust. Too high a thrust will mean you get your apoapsis set way before you can get much horizontal speed, and you're back where we started. High thrust causes other problems like increasing the risk of flipping out as you try to turn. Don't go above TWR or 1.5 (eh...get the KER mod; you'll be glad you did) for any of your lift stages and that will give you plenty of burn time to pick up horizontal speed without throwing your Ap out of the system.

5 hours ago, ghost_sox said:

Ok, now,  I finally get into orbit after about 3 or 4 tries.  I have feul so lets try a Mun flyby.   RIGHT!
Set a maneuver node and get my apoapsis out to Munar orbit,  move the node to get a Mun encounter.   Easy right?
Comes time to burn,  line up with the blue marker and burn when the timer hits 0,  burn until the white meter is gone and the clock reaches 0 on burn time,   my orbit is way, way past Mun with no encounter.  
I try it again,  this time burning 1/2 before and 1/2 after node encounter.

Good about finding out about the 1/2 before - 1/2 after thing; that's what you want. But keep in mind transfer orbits are highly eccentric, and therefore are quite sensitive to small changes in velocity (both speed and direction) and timing. Here's my tip: do the burn from map mode. You'll be able to see your real (blue) orbit approach your planned (yellow) orbit, and when it gets close, pull back on the throttle. Then ignore the node marker and just go pro- and retrograde under real low thrust until you get it about where you want it to go. You will not hit the target orbit exactly, but as Captain Bararossa says, "Eh, they're more guidelines, really."

5 hours ago, ghost_sox said:

Ok,  I get close to Mun after a bit of luck and somehow got the node right, (don't kow how I did it).   I am nice and close and now I can't steer my ship,  I'm tumbling all over the place and there's no way to get home because I've lost control of my ship.

I've gotta agree with the other posters, this sounds like a run-out-of-electric-charge problem to me. Mouse over your resources tab and see if it shows anything in the electric charge bar. If nothing else, press timewarp once and cancel it, and it should cancel out any rotation you've got. This is an exploit, but dammit, you've gotta do what you gotta do.

5 hours ago, ghost_sox said:

I don't know what I'm doing wrong or why this has to be so complicated.

Hate to break it to you, but it has to be complicated because it is that complicated. There is a lot of stuff that is completely non-intuitive about this. But if you perservere (and listen to the folks trying to help you) it'll be oh so satisfying when you finally do see what's supposed to happen and it works. But keep in mind (some of the other posters have shown this already) there is more than one way to skin a cat, so someone may suggest something one way, and another may suggest something that sounds completely different. Suggestions about TWR or mod use are prone to that. But we want you to succeed!

If you have more questions about specific problems during your flight, it would be good to consult the "gameplay questions and tutorials" forum; you are not the first player to encounter these problems, and I guarantee you will not be the last either.

Oh, and since I haven't seen anybody else post it yet...welcome to the forums. Good luck, I hope you can work through these problems. Have a lot of patience.

[Gojira1000]

biggest problem you listed - loss of control/tumbling/dead controls - you're most likely out of electricity - batteries and solar panels will fix that. 

My rules of thumb for easy orbits are going to sound familiar if you've read the rest of this thread.

1. Install Kerbal Engineer Redux so you have a source for TWR dV and the remaining measurements

2. Build your orbiter - should be about 4000dV on the pad to give you a decent margin for error. More never hurts so long as

3. Your TWR (Thrust weight ratio) on the pad is somewhere between 1.3 and 1.6 - If it's too high, right click the engine and adjust your max thrust until it is. Do the same for other stages (an upper stage can operate on lower TWR if it's been lofted sufficiently high but lets keep this simple).

4. Hit T and Z on the pad to turn on SAS and full throttle. Launch

5. Angle 10 degrees east (90) at 100 m/s. Increase to 20 degrees at 200 m/s. Slowly continue dropping the nose with an eye on hitting 45 degrees at 12-15,000 meters. Continue your turn over gradually, you'll probably wind up burning at the horizon at around 40 KM altitude.

6. Watch your AP. When it hits your desired orbit height (for example 75km) stop burning. 

7. Hit M - in map view add a maneuver at your AP. Note the burn time required.

8. once above 60km, orient the rocket to your blue node target. Deploy solar panels.

9. at 1/2 your burn time prior to the node, begin burning, holding on the blue target marker. 

10. Welcome to orbit. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2016 by Gojira1000

[Yemo]

My advice is, to take it one step at a time and since you are coming from flight sims, make checklists and written plans. And then correct them. And so on.

eg checklist: Sufficient dV, good TWR, vessel control (gimbal, reaction wheels), enough batteries, enough solar panels, fins for stability in atmo

And then one step at a time. If you can not reliably reach orbit, going to the mun is premature. And if you can not reliably design a rocket which can reach space at an inclination without tumbling, trying to orbit is premature. One learning step at a time instead of trying to do everything at once only to be frustrated.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Yemo

[Superfluous J]

One more suggestion, possibly for a moderator:

This thread should be renamed and possibly moved. It doesn't have much to do with 1.1.3 and is more a Gameplay Question than a KSP Discussion.

Edited June 25, 2016 by 5thHorseman

[sardia]

1 hour ago, ghost_sox said:

Thanks for all the replies....

Now for some of my own...

First a quote...   
""  Just read the instructions ""
I believe in my initial post I have stated that I've researched for hours.   More than just reading the directions.   I have watched video after video including Manley.  I have done the tuts section.

.I understand how the navball works.  

I have SAS enabled and have a one star pilot in career mode.  
I often burn too much feul to get into orbit on one flight,   start tumbling evweywhere on another.   On this other one I will lose the ability to move the navball entirely.    Charge can run out in just one orbit?    Why am I losing the ability to move the ball entirely?   If it isn't this,  it's that.   Fix this,  that breaks.   Fix that,  this happens.
I am launching the same mission over and over and over again with backward progress.   I orbited the Mun and didn't have enough fuel to return.  OK,  cool,  Revert,   Now I can't get into orbit again.  Revert,  now I start tumbling before reaching Mun,  Revert,  Now I can't "steer" entirely.   Yikes.   So I'm losing these abilities with the same DARN ROCKET.   Sometimes I can steer,  but sometimes I tumble,  sometimes I lose "steering" altogether.   I know you don't "steer" in space,  just can't think of what else to call it.

This is just plain too hard.   There needs to be a way to tone it down a bit.   I mean,  I am a man of science,  been studying space and astronomy since 6th grade (over 30 years)   and this game makes me feel stupid.   

I have been playing for about a month and a half.   You'd think I could land on the Mun by now...   Nope,  I haven't even tried it.  I have only orbited it.   I guess I just plain don't get it.

The AP issue I speak of happens while ascending into space...  Holding the nose at the horizon and burning should keep the AP where it is and raise the PE,  which it does,  for a while until the AP suddenly climbs WAY WAY faster than the PE,  resulting in an AP of 600km and a PE of only 100km.    I have tried burning slightly above prograde after passing the AP point,  which works for a few seconds.   Sometimes I can get a descent orbit but most times I end up using all my fuel on raising the PE which takes FOREVER to climb.
After passing the AP on the way up,  the AP SHOOTS up and the PE CRAWLS up.
How the heck can you make the PE rise faster while keeping the AP close to stable?  I have tried stronger engines and weaker engines.  I've tinkered with TWR.    Ugghh     No matter what I do,  that AP shoots up while that PE slowly ticks up.   That's my biggest issue,  along with the loss of control (tumbling and moving the ball entirely).

I appreciate a game that is challenging.  I don't mind learning it,  but I'm getting to a point where I'm going to put it down and fire up Prison Architect again LOL.   I'm not having fun,  I'm constantly frustrated.  But I've waited for a game like this for a few decades.   Major disappointment..    I want to be able to play this but I didn't realize it would have such a steep learning curve.   I've played some complicated games before,  (Battlecruiser / Universal Combat anyone? LOL)  but  KSP has half the controls but twice the complications.

It would be a lot easier for us to give advice if we could see your moon lander rocket. There are probably flaws in your design that aren't obvious until we see them. Also since screenshots of your craft as it fails would be nice. 

Edited June 25, 2016 by sardia

[Violent Jeb]

yup, my first mun encounter, i just waited until it was almost directly overhead and shot right into it. Didn't survive, but i learned alot.

Head over to youtube if you want to see people and their crafts getting into orbit, and try to study what they are doing different,. bigger engines, are they using sas, rcs? how is their rocket shaped, etc.

you'll get there.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Violent Jeb

[HebaruSan]

3 hours ago, ghost_sox said:

Thanks for all the replies....

Thanks for asking questions, and welcome to the forums! You're hitting a lot of the same pitfalls and frustrations that we've all experienced, so take heart. I believe it's actually the most enjoyable phase of the game overall, since you learn so much and have so many new accomplishments in a rapid sequence. It just takes a certain kind of mental strategy to deal with failures.

5 hours ago, MircoMars said:

4. explosions are fun! 

Indeed! The developers put time and energy into those visual effects not to punish us, but to provide something fun to look at during the disasters that they know every player will experience. Don't feel bad; feel like you're getting your money's worth by experiencing the whole game.

Quote

.I understand how the navball works.  

There's a lot of complexity hidden in that thing. For instance, do you know how to estimate your current vertical velocity using the nav ball? Not in terms of precise numbers, but just things like, "It's getting close to zero now... and now it's negative." That's not necessarily something you'd want to fly an entire mission around, but every additional piece of information can add to your situational awareness.

Quote

I have SAS enabled and have a one star pilot in career mode.  
I often burn too much feul to get into orbit on one flight,   start tumbling evweywhere on another.   On this other one I will lose the ability to move the navball entirely.    Charge can run out in just one orbit?    Why am I losing the ability to move the ball entirely?

Unlike in some other space games, spacecraft in KSP do not possess the inherent and always-available ability to rotate themselves smoothly at will. They must be torqued by something, typically reaction wheels or reaction control systems (or fins/flaps when in an atmosphere), and these mechanisms must be provided for during craft design. Reaction wheels are built in to command pods but may need to be supplemented by additional parts if the overall craft is too massive, and they consume ElectricCharge, which must be either replenished by solar panels or stockpiled with batteries or both. RCS consumes Monopropellant, which is present in command pods, but it also requires you to place the engines/nozzles that generate the thrust, which can be done efficiently or inefficiently.

One piece of advice that may help: Turning off SAS (press T) after you get into orbit may save electricity. Yes, it can run out in just one orbit if you have a small supply and many things consuming it.

Quote

If it isn't this,  it's that.   Fix this,  that breaks.   Fix that,  this happens.

It can definitely be very frustrating early on when these things are dumped on you all at once, but I assure you there are a finite number of such concerns, and they can be mastered in a stepwise systematic way. In certain cases I've found it helpful (and probably more fun) to take notes in a sort of mission journal that tracks what went wrong, what I determined to be the cause, and what I did to fix it. Then when I build the next craft, the items accumulated in that third category become my design checklist.

As others have noted, the F5 quicksave hotkey can be used to reduce your number of reverts; press it once you get past something you know can be difficult (such as getting to orbit), and then press F9 to quickload if something goes wrong after that.

Quote

This is just plain too hard.   There needs to be a way to tone it down a bit.   I mean,  I am a man of science,  been studying space and astronomy since 6th grade (over 30 years)   and this game makes me feel stupid.   

Well, much of the stuff that's tripping you up is more in the realm of engineering than astronomy (and cartoony semi-fake engineering at that), so you shouldn't let that get to you. As for ways to tone it down, there is a cheat menu if you'd like to relieve yourself of some of the complexity for a while (for instance, you could give yourself infinite Monopropellant to ensure you're always able to control a craft with RCS thrusters).

Quote

I have been playing for about a month and a half.   You'd think I could land on the Mun by now...   Nope,  I haven't even tried it.  I have only orbited it.   I guess I just plain don't get it.

I personally would not have arbitrary milestone expectations for a given player, since the number of variables involved is just too huge. And who knows, maybe you could land on the Mun if you did try it.

Quote

The AP issue I speak of happens while ascending into space...  Holding the nose at the horizon and burning should keep the AP where it is and raise the PE,  which it does,  for a while until the AP suddenly climbs WAY WAY faster than the PE,  resulting in an AP of 600km and a PE of only 100km.    I have tried burning slightly above prograde after passing the AP point,  which works for a few seconds.   Sometimes I can get a descent orbit but most times I end up using all my fuel on raising the PE which takes FOREVER to climb.
After passing the AP on the way up,  the AP SHOOTS up and the PE CRAWLS up.

I can picture exactly what's happening to your orbit when you see this; I recommend watching it on the map screen to see it for yourself.

If you try to circularize by burning horizontally too early (too long before reaching your apoapsis), then you're adding that horizontal velocity at a point in your orbit where you still have lots of upward vertical velocity. What does an orbit look like when it passes through a 60 km altitude with lots of forward horizontal velocity and significant upward vertical velocity? It goes upwards in front, and downwards towards the back. That's why your periapsis doesn't increase much; it can't, because it can never be higher than your ship currently is.

Here's an imgur album to try to illustrate, with the craft travelling counter clockwise (please forgive me if it shows doubled images or the wrong order for you, I haven't told it to do that); note how the angle of the magenta line passing through the (pathetically hand-drawn) craft reflects both its horizontal and vertical velocity:

 

 

Quote

How the heck can you make the PE rise faster while keeping the AP close to stable?  I have tried stronger engines and weaker engines.  I've tinkered with TWR.    Ugghh     No matter what I do,  that AP shoots up while that PE slowly ticks up.   That's my biggest issue,  along with the loss of control (tumbling and moving the ball entirely).

You need to shed more vertical velocity before burning horizontally. The easiest answer is to add a coasting phase to your launch, as others have pointed out; once your Ap gets where you want it to be, you want to avoid changing it, which means getting closer to it. If you burn horizontally later, close to apoapsis, then your vertical velocity is closer to zero when you're adding that horizontal velocity, and you'll avoid the problem shown in the above images.

Quote

I appreciate a game that is challenging.  I don't mind learning it,  but I'm getting to a point where I'm going to put it down and fire up Prison Architect again LOL.   I'm not having fun,  I'm constantly frustrated.  But I've waited for a game like this for a few decades.   Major disappointment..    I want to be able to play this but I didn't realize it would have such a steep learning curve.   I've played some complicated games before,  (Battlecruiser / Universal Combat anyone? LOL)  but  KSP has half the controls but twice the complications.

Certainly not all games are a good match for all people, and if you're having more fun with Prison Architect, there's no reason not to play that instead (I have been doing that myself lately, for what that's worth). But if it matters to you, so far, the things that have flummoxed you are surmountable challenges presented by the game, which for the most part are based on how the real world works (with some heavy caveats around the strength of reaction wheels, the power of solar panels, and the inefficiency of batteries). But if you stick it out, I'm confident you'll do well and have fun. After all, you have more applicable background than I did when I started.

Edited June 25, 2016 by HebaruSan

[bewing]

As another man of science, I have to tell you that you are trying too many experiments all at the same time. To learn from an experiment, you need to reduce the number of variables. So I am going to tell you to do something different from what all the others are telling you. They are telling you how to do things "the right way" and efficiently. I will tell now tell you how to start to get to orbit repeatedly, reliably, with almost no variables. From there, you can start to see how a few things actually work (as 5th Horseman says, you are somewhat mistaken about the behavior of your Ap and Pe under thrust).

The inefficent but simple way to get to orbit: On the pad, click T to turn on SAS stability mode. Launch straight up. When your Ap is significantly above the atmosphere, cut the engines and coast up to 10km below the Ap (this is especially easy if you use SRBs for your first stage, because they do exactly this, with perfect repeatability). Rotate your ship to point east on the horizon. Go back to full thrust, keeping your nose on the horizon.

Now, the interesting experimental part of this is to watch your Ap. When you are close to it, its value will not change much. When you are far away from it, and are thrusting, its value will rise quickly. It rises faster when it is behind you than when it is in front of you. When you thrust prograde, you push the Ap away from you -- either in front, or behind.

You will learn that when you want to do a lot of thrusting, you want to keep your Ap just a little ways ahead of you. Since you are close to it, its value will not change much. As you thrust, it will be pushed ahead of you, so that you remain close to it. If you let it get far away, its value will skyrocket. If you let the value of the Ap get too big, you can burn in the Radial or AntiRadial direction to convert some of the energy that's in your Ap to being in your Pe, instead.

But definitely work on getting to a reliable LKO before adding more variables with maneuver nodes and transfer orbits. (Two hints there that nobody else has said -- if you tell the maneuver node that you will be thrusting prograde, then thrust prograde. Do not follow the blue marker for now. And for now don't thrust until the deltaV meter goes all the way down to "0" -- instead, watch your orbit as you thrust, and stop when the map view shows that you achieved an encounter.)

 

Edited June 26, 2016 by bewing

[Vanamonde]

I made a little guide to achieving orbit. Maybe it would be helpful? 

[carlorizzante]

Hej Ghost_sox, I feel your pain.

At times I find KSP frustrating as well. My main issues are related to bugs and perhaps too many installed mods. The game in itself is genial and the simplified physic offers a challenge that's at same time enjoyable.

I can't give you any technical advices since I am by no mean an expert and I agree that KSP can be frustrating in multiple ways.

But do not give up yet, c'mon, what's cooler than a game about rocket science? Seriously.

Hope you'll figure it all out and start having real fun. Good luck!!

ps: Myself I'm still working on getting a decent gravity turn and to get into orbit I need like 50% more fuel than what people usually say it's needed. Actually I'm learning from this thread! Thanks.