A forums area idea.

[kiwi1960]

Firstly, I though there was an area to discuss ideas for the forums, or did I miss it? Sorry if there is.

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but hey, lets try again.

An "old farts" area for all us old timers to discuss KSP and things, and what we were thinking when we watched the Moon landing LIVE on TV way back in 1969....

The number one objection would be that younger types would invade it... so what... the more the merrier but predominantly, older types who can have good discussion like which type of heart pills do you take... I'd rather enjoy that because ... no offence, but the younger types are.... ...... lets just say youth is wasted on the young.

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by kiwi1960

[Gaarst]

Forum suggestions go to Kerbal Network.

I don't think this is a good idea. First how would you restrict entrance to "younger" users since you can put pretty much what you want for your DoB. Also, the whole thing about discrimination, generations clash, stereotypes, splitting the community... Kind of being dramatic here, but I hope you understood what I meant.

[Green Baron]

"From the balcony" ?

:-)

[HoloYolo]

Kiwi, to be honest (me being pretty young compared to everyone else), this is a terrible idea. It would mainly cause discrimination. If I came on here and said, "I want a section for young people, like kids or teenagers,", then the reaction would come from the older people saying that it would split people up. Creating sections based on age would lead to many problems, and I don't want the mods to quit their jobs. It just won't work.

[adsii1970]

1 hour ago, kiwi1960 said:

An "old farts" area for all us old timers to discuss KSP and things, and what we were thinking when we watched the Moon landing LIVE on TV way back in 1969....

The number one objection would be that younger types would invade it... so what... the more the merrier but predominantly, older types who can have good discussion like which type of heart pills do you take... I'd rather enjoy that because ... no offence, but the younger types are.... ...... lets just say youth is wasted on the young.

[Edited by adsii1970 for relevant content]

I do understand, believe me. I may not have as many years on this mud ball as you do, but I do have a bit of a higher education (and teach at a local university for a living). At first, I felt the same way you did until I realized that being older, I could be a positive influence in the forum. Yeah, it has cost me a few infractions (and every one of them were for posts political in nature), but it has led to some pretty decent discussions.

Now I say this as a general statement, but the younger generation, having been exposed to "modern education" (or indoctrination) have, for the most part, never been encouraged or allowed to be independent thinkers.  They also have not taught the art of discourse and debate; they take a winners and losers approach when many of the discussions on the forum are more akin to presenting differing ideas and theories to overcome a particular problem. They simply see it as a right or wrong question. They cannot handle disagreement, nor can they not handle being within the "consensus" opinion. I heard a fellow professor basically say that it is the result of the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality Western society has adopted.

Become the one that, with patience and determination, that helps to teach the art of discussion. Be the one that helps to make a difference on the forum and in your corner of the world. 

[Robotengineer]

1 hour ago, adsii1970 said:

Now I say this as a general statement, but the younger generation, having been exposed to "modern education" (or indoctrination) have, for the most part, never been encouraged or allowed to be independent thinkers.  They also have not taught the art of discourse and debate; they take a winners and losers approach when many of the discussions on the forum are more akin to presenting differing ideas and theories to overcome a particular problem. They simply see it as a right or wrong question. They cannot handle disagreement, nor can they not handle being within the "consensus" opinion. I heard a fellow professor basically say that it is the result of the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality Western society has adopted.

Young, independent thinker here. I must say that you paint us with too broad a brush. If anything, it is the older generation(s) (in general) that do not know how to discuss and debate. I have attempted to engage in civil discourse with many older people on news forums but only a small minority of those actually responded in kind, with most of them just getting ugly and sticking to their talking points. Then again, I, and others on this forum, may be an anomalies rather than the norm. 

The ability to discuss and debate civilly has more to do with a propensity toward learning and ideological moderation in the participants rather than their age, IMO. 

I have also spent time on other interest based forums (like this one) in which most, if not all, of the other people were at least twice my age. Even as someone who has consumed a lot of older media, (mostly music and films) it was an odd atmosphere where there were lots of inside jokes and such, which left me with a  general feeling of being left out. 

So while I can appreciate the reasons for this idea, I think it would be best not to implement it.

[Just Jim]

2 hours ago, HoloYolo said:

Kiwi, to be honest (me being pretty young compared to everyone else), this is a terrible idea. It would mainly cause discrimination. If I came on here and said, "I want a section for young people, like kids or teenagers,", then the reaction would come from the older people saying that it would split people up. Creating sections based on age would lead to many problems, and I don't want the mods to quit their jobs. It just won't work.

 

2 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

Become the one that, with patience and determination, that helps to teach the art of discussion. Be the one that helps to make a difference on the forum and in your corner of the world. 

While I don't know if it would a case of discrimination, I also think this is not a great idea.

My reason is that while I am also an "old guy" (I'm 53), I really think it's important to share our experiences like watching the Apollo launches... and yes, I remember them well... with the younger members like @HoloYolo. 
 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Just Jim

[adsii1970]

2 hours ago, Robotengineer said:

Young, independent thinker here. I must say that you paint us with too broad a brush. If anything, it is the older generation(s) (in general) that do not know how to discuss and debate. I have attempted to engage in civil discourse with many older people on news forums but only a small minority of those actually responded in kind, with most of them just getting ugly and sticking to their talking points. Then again, I, and others on this forum, may be an anomalies rather than the norm. 

The ability to discuss and debate civilly has more to do with a propensity toward learning and ideological moderation in the participants rather than their age, IMO. 

I have also spent time on other interest based forums (like this one) in which most, if not all, of the other people were at least twice my age. Even as someone who has consumed a lot of older media, (mostly music and films) it was an odd atmosphere where there were lots of inside jokes and such, which left me with a  general feeling of being left out. 

So while I can appreciate the reasons for this idea, I think it would be best not to implement it.

@Robotengineer

Point proven. I already added a disclaimer in the form of the phrase "now I say this as a general statement" which implies that I am not talking about everyone in the younger generation. I am speaking as one who has taught at the university level for 14 years. While you may be a part of the younger generation, you may not necessarily be a part of what I am referring to. You would be the minority as is implied in my statement.

The art of the debate and the art of discussion is NOT a generational issue but one of intelligence and education. I was taught it in high school where it was taught that the best debate or discussion is one where you base your interpretation of facts, of which the fact is not debated but the interpretation is. I was also taught that it is never good to make an attack PERSONAL but you can attack the person's opinion all you want, as long as your attacks are based on the interpretation of fact. It is why on this forum I will never attack anyone, regardless of how moronic their statements may be. Now, I will critique their opinion... but that is the art of the debate.

You made your disagreement with me PERSONAL and I strongly disagree with your opinion which neither accepts my disqualification nor makes allowance for it. I was not talking about every person in the younger generations but simply making a broad statement about it. Part of the art of debating is about not walking around at something to be offended at so that you can pontificate your point of view.

And yes, I hit the "like" button on @kiwi1960's idea for a simple reason... I understand where he is coming from. I have had forum members send me some not so flattering messages on the Steam messenger because they disagreed with a comment, or even were telling me I had no business playing KSP because I don't even have a science background (I have a Ph.D. in U.S. history and Foreign Policy). I have seen younger college students who want to demand the right to be heard but who do not want to listen and will prohibit others from trying to hear (see this link as an example) what a speaker has to say. Today we see this with nearly every topic out there: religion, sexual orientation, politics, global warming, et al.

I see the forums as an extension of free discourse (as long as it follows the forum rules) and have always allowed others to freely express themselves. I also disagree with anything that creates strata divisions within the forum, such as the creation of age-centered threads. However, I do empathize with @kiwi1960's view and for the most part, yours, too. It is tough being above and beyond mentally and educationally than your peers. I was that way (and to the most part, still am) since I entered the middle school grades.

Excuse my vanity, but I still feel this is as appropriate to kiwi1960 as it is to you:

4 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

Become the one that, with patience and determination, that helps to teach the art of discussion. Be the one that helps to make a difference on the forum and in your corner of the world. 

 

[Green Baron]

 

I'm somewhat in the middle agewise and asking myself: why should we distinguish the elder from the younger ? I see no advantage in this. Mun landing for example has been discussed before, someone wrote about watching sputnik in the sky, so there seems to be enough room for discussions about the past.

Most people here are oriented towards the future anyway ...

People age 40 and above have usually seen much more than the younger (though not all), and they have usually already had all the thoughts the younger are just experiencing and thus have to bite their tongue every once and so often, especially in a computer game forum where young people are naturally the majority. I find this works pretty well here, have had worse experiences.

So, no, i'd probably not join you in the balcony, Stadler, but i pop over every now and then for a impudent comment.

;-)

 

[Robotengineer]

22 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

The art of the debate and the art of discussion is NOT a generational issue but one of intelligence and education. I was taught it in high school where it was taught that the best debate or discussion is one where you base your interpretation of facts, of which the fact is not debated but the interpretation is. I was also taught that it is never good to make an attack PERSONAL but you can attack the person's opinion all you want, as long as your attacks are based on the interpretation of fact. It is why on this forum I will never attack anyone, regardless of how moronic their statements may be. Now, I will critique their opinion... but that is the art of the debate.

You made your disagreement with me PERSONAL and I strongly disagree with your opinion which neither accepts my disqualification nor makes allowance for it. I was not talking about every person in the younger generations but simply making a broad statement about it. Part of the art of debating is about not walking around at something to be offended at so that you can pontificate your point of view.

My statement was no more personal against you than yours was against me. I qualified it, and provided a disclaimer allowing that I and others like me are probably in the minority. I only mentioned bad experiences with older internet users (which I made sure to not be an attack on all older people) as a counterexample to your attribution that modern education and changes in western culture are responsible for much of the detriment to debate and discussion. Though I do not wholly disagree with that statement, I feel it should be should be expanded upon, i.e. the 'everybody wins' mentality has only been dominant for a few decades, so why are there lots of older people that act like they grew up with a modern education system and 'everybody wins' mentality (unless you mean modern education to mean the educational system of most of the 20th century and extend the 'everybody wins' mentality back to the mid-20th century.)

I would also add that your general statement about my generation is not particularly applicable to this discussion as most of the younger forum users here tend to be in the minority with me, and do not fall under your general statement.

I'm going to stop now so as not to get my self in trouble over ideological/political debate, as this thread has derailed enough.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Robotengineer
Wall of text needed editing.

[kiwi1960]

I'm going to be blunt here, and explain why this forum area idea is wanted.

Young people feel entitled. Old people (like me) feel bullied by a few, but the few is enough because they are loud.

Us older people just want friendly discussions, some young people want to score points, and someone already quite rightly pointed this out. They have a win at all costs mentality, forget about being civil, forget about be respectful, just make the point and win, score points... they talk down to you.

This forum is not catering to our needs, the philosophy is that provided the rules are followed, this nastiness is OK... its not breaking the rules. Maybe there needs to be a rule where freedom of speech is OK provided you respect other peoples right to freedom of speech as well. See... they can say what they like provided its within the rules. The minute anyone tries to put the kid in his place, without breaking any rules... THEY get the telling off. Respect is not a requirement here... unless its towards the moderators. Why not everyone?

Yes, adsii1970 explained it very well. If any "kid" spoke to me face to face like they do on this forums, he would get a verbal smack down. YES, you can say what you like to my face, provided you show proper respect, and YES, respect is earned, but that works both ways, but respect for older people is a given, its not up for debate.

So unless this forum decides to make EVERYONE welcome, then this isn't really a "community" is it?

Everyone who has replied so far THINKS i said I wanted a older persons area EXCLUSIVELY... I did not. What I actually said was...

The number one objection would be that younger types would invade it... so what... the more the merrier but predominantly, older types who can have good discussion...

And there is the next problem. Younger people do not read an entire post, they skim read it, ignore what they want and take the entire post out of context. They ignore the bits they don't like and throw it back at a posters face with a comment that "it wouldn't work"...  or "why should we distinguish the elder from the younger" and the biggest insult to what I said in the first post is this statement... TOTALLY discounting my opinion and statements... "Most people here are oriented towards the future anyway ... " but I have a hard time working out how he came to that conclusion as no polls have been conducted, so he invalidates my opinion with his opinion which is not based on any facts...

I bet you anything this post will NEVER see the light of day.

Edited July 1, 2016 by kiwi1960

[Green Baron]

So you think you don't get enough respect from the next generation ? And you feel insulted by my remark about the orientation towards the future ? I am sorry (and surprised), i meant no insult, believe me. Maybe i just don't see things that serious.

I don't think a subforum titled "elder" will solve the problem of respect between generations. That's a constant over time in human behavior since at least the iron age (at least since the first philosophers). The youngsters have to make their own experiences and won't listen to the old ones. On the other hand the old ones push their problems over to the next generation. So it's a draw then, we won't solve it here :-) Well, if we sum it up the elder have an advantage .... could be a reason for being more relaxed :-)

There are likewise discussions where elder start to bark and bite or drum their chests with phd's and whatnot, i don't feel like being bullied by the younger ones. I'm probably on the nasty side myself sometimes, but i don't have any problem with being paid back. Compared to other forums i've been in the tone here is quite civil.

You seem very frustrated and i seem to have triggered a lot of anger, i'am sorry that this is the case. My remark that made you so upset wasn't meant to be nasty and maybe just isn't worth your anger. Overall i doubt that a subforum will serve your needs because i don't see a reason why things would run different.

Hope that calms the seas ...

[Deddly]

8 hours ago, kiwi1960 said:

Respect is not a requirement here... unless its towards the moderators. Why not everyone?

Hi kiwi1960, I'd just like to highlight this one statement or yours. Treating everyone with respect is actually in the guidelines, namely rule 1.3:

"It is important to recognize the many differences in backgrounds and skills present within the community and to strive for the highest levels respect towards one another at all times."

So why do non moderators get treated with less respect at times? Presumably because a regular user cannot punish the person in question. But what many users make the mistake of doing is taking the matter into their own hands and replying in kind, which only serves to exacerbate the issue. If you see someone saying something disrespectful, hit the flag and report it, because the moderators don't notice everything.

As for your idea, why not start a thread in the Lounge section and see if it works? If it expands, who knows? Maybe then you'll have a stronger case for a forum section.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Deddly

[Robotengineer]

Emphasis mine.

On June 30, 2016 at 9:18 PM, kiwi1960 said:

Young people feel entitled. Old people (like me) feel bullied by a few, but the few is enough because they are loud.

How are we acting entitled? Until you elaborate and provide examples, you are just stating an opinion. Report those who are bullying you to the moderators, that's why they are here. If the mod's say they aren't breaking any rules, contact the user directly explaining how their post/posts made you feel and ask them to stop being rude, if that doesn't work, block them or put up with it.

On June 30, 2016 at 9:18 PM, kiwi1960 said:

Us older people just want friendly discussions, some young people want to score points, and someone already quite rightly pointed this out. They have a win at all costs mentality, forget about being civil, forget about be respectful, just make the point and win, score points... they talk down to you.

If I come across as disrespectful, I do not intend to. I am not scoring points, I am making points, which is what you do when you are debating an issue.

On June 30, 2016 at 9:18 PM, kiwi1960 said:

This forum is not catering to our needs,

Is this not a statement that older people are entitled to have the forum cater to their needs?

On June 30, 2016 at 9:18 PM, kiwi1960 said:

the philosophy is that provided the rules are followed, this nastiness is OK... its not breaking the rules. Maybe there needs to be a rule where freedom of speech is OK provided you respect other peoples right to freedom of speech as well.

I don't think anyone is disrespecting your (or others) right to free speech. I may tell you your wrong, that your idea is misguided, and that it would likely divide the community (as it already has in this thread), but I'm not disrespecting your right to free speech, I'm just exercising my right to free speech. If you're going to say something, expect people to disagree and state their disagreement.

On June 30, 2016 at 9:18 PM, kiwi1960 said:

The minute anyone tries to put the kid in his place,

This is the crux of the issue. *Most of* you older people think you have the right to put us in our place, which you most certainly don't. There is no rule 1.6 which states:

"If any older forum member believes a younger member(s) to be mouthing off or otherwise 'disrespecting' them, they have the right to put the younger member(s) in their place." 

It is derogatory and discriminatory to think you can put 'kids' (of which only some of us younger members are) in their place. 

On June 30, 2016 at 9:18 PM, kiwi1960 said:

without breaking any rules... THEY get the telling off. Respect is not a requirement here... unless its towards the moderators. Why not everyone?

Respect is not a requirement, but rudimentary civility is. Rule 2.3d (Forbidden content):

"Insults and threats, stalking or any other behavior construed to be of a potentially rude or otherwise harassing nature to/of other users, members of the mod team or members of Squad;" If someone is being rude or disrespectful, report them. 

On June 30, 2016 at 9:18 PM, kiwi1960 said:

 but respect for older people is a given, its not up for debate.

Yes it is. This is the internet, where you are (or should be) judged solely on the content you create and the merit of that content. I couldn't care less how old you (or anyone else on this forum) are. 

On the other hand, I welcome advice and life experience from people who are older than me. Older people can often share important lessons and stories that we may not hear elsewhere. Though a subsection for nostalgia and talk about meds and such is not the best way to share those lessons.

On June 30, 2016 at 9:18 PM, kiwi1960 said:

So unless this forum decides to make EVERYONE welcome, then this isn't really a "community" is it?

Everyone who has replied so far THINKS i said I wanted a older persons area EXCLUSIVELY... I did not. What I actually said was...

Everyone is welcome. Please share specific incidents of people being unwelcoming. I know that there have been incidents with other groups, but I have not heard of age based discrimination until now. 

It really doesn't matter whether it is an old persons area exclusively or not, it's still a special accommodation for a certain group, and the only other group that gets similar accommodation are the non-english speakers (which I have no problem with). However, by creating an old-persons forum you are basically inviting trolls, while also opening the door for other special group based forums.

TL;DR

Old people shouldn't get de facto respect, they should earn it. One way for older people to earn respect is by sharing their life experiences and life lessons. 

Young people shouldn't bully older people, but this should go without saying. If older people are bullied, they should report it. 

By creating an old persons forum, exclusive or not, you are inviting trolls and opening the door to other group specific forums, further segmenting the forum. 

Edited July 8, 2016 by Robotengineer
Walls of text, when built hastily, are a mess.

[Green Baron]

29 minutes ago, Robotengineer said:

This is the crux of the issue. You older people think you have right to put us in our place, which you most certainly don't.

@Robotengineer,

i agree to almost everything in your post. I stumbled over that statement as well, but not every oldtimer thinks so. That's the "almost".

Safe landings everyone !

 

[Gaarst]

See how even discussing the idea creates a separation between younger and older forum users? 

@kiwi1960 A restricted subforum (I know it's not what you suggested) is a bad idea, a dedicated subforum is not necessarily a bad idea but I doubt it will be very active in the long run; a good compromise that does not involve any forum change or generation wars would be to simply open a topic in which older users can share their experiences to other users (old or young, anyone interested really).
I think you are a bit exaggerating the issue: there are not a lot of trolls in the KSP forums, and not reacting to the few of them that could show up in that topic will probably set them off and keep it going as you intended.

Also, I do not respect an older person that I don't know more than anyone else, nor do I expect to be more respected than anyone else by younger people.

[Mjp1050]

I do have a question, though.

How is anyone expected to know another user's age at all?

These forums are anonymous, and I presume the reason is to stop discrimination from happening in the first place. 

Calling out or trying to exclude people based upon a factor that they had no control over, e.g. date of birth, is the dictionary definition of discrimination.

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

Why don't you just start a thread for reminiscing?  I doubt that there would be enough activity to warrant an entire subforum, and removes many of the problems of a restricted subforum.  I think a reminiscing thread would be great, forumers of all ages could reminisce about what they remember, even if it's just older version of KSP.

[cubinator]

"More harm has been done by people panicked over societal decline than societal decline ever did." -xkcd

So true.

Edited July 8, 2016 by cubinator

[Castille7]

On 7/3/2016 at 0:05 PM, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

Why don't you just start a thread for reminiscing?  I doubt that there would be enough activity to warrant an entire subforum, and removes many of the problems of a restricted subforum.  I think a reminiscing thread would be great, forumers of all ages could reminisce about what they remember, even if it's just older version of KSP.

@Mad Rocket Scientist I just thought about doing this and found you thought about this also, do you think anyone started a thread like this yet, I can't seem to find one?

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

4 hours ago, Castille7 said:

@Mad Rocket Scientist I just thought about doing this and found you thought about this also, do you think anyone started a thread like this yet, I can't seem to find one?

I don't believe anyone has yet.  

[Castille7]

1 hour ago, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

I don't believe anyone has yet.  

Ok Thank you, I may start one soon.