Planes always fishtail

[noobsrtoast]

What the heck did they do to wheels, no matter what I do my planes will fishtail as I pick up speed, spin out, and crash, this was a really unnecessary change to wheels and makes building aircraft near impossible 

I never had this problem before 1.1 and I can't be the only one having this problem, wheels are way too unstable right now and need to be reverted, landing gear doesn't work like this in real life, my gear is perfectly straight with no problems I can see, it's getting a bit ridiculous that I cannot even design a simple plane without it flipping on high friction settings or spinning out on pow friction settings 

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by noobsrtoast

[bewing]

Set the front wheels to have low friction (.4 or less), and the back wheels to have high friction (1.4 or higher).

[pincushionman]

4 hours ago, noobsrtoast said:

…this was a really unnecessary change to wheels…

As noted in many other posts, this was absolutely necessary. The wheel implementations used under Unity 4 are no longer suppoerted under U5, and everything had to be re-written to accomodate them. They can not be reverted.

1.2 is slated to include another Unity minor update which should help with new wheel middleware. You can argue some about some of the strength and stiffness choices, though. The fishtailing/turn-on-takeoff-roll is actually the result of a symmetry stiffness bug.

[Cerberus738]

Change friction on rear wheels. Should be at least double your front wheels. I try not to change the front wheel settings as then your steering goes all wonky

[Rocket In My Pocket]

I've never even touched the friction or traction control settings on the wheels and I've never had a single issue.

I really don't get why everyone has this exact formula of settings they think will magically fix things. (The funniest part is that no one agrees on what the correct setting is.)

If you leave them on default and design your plane well, you'll be fine. Some screenshots of your planes that have problems would help us address your issue.

[Cerberus738]

Maybe I don't want to redesign my plane.

Maybe I would rather just tweak the wheels and have it work

[noobsrtoast]

On July 13, 2016 at 0:52 PM, Cerberus738 said:

Change friction on rear wheels. Should be at least double your front wheels. I try not to change the front wheel settings as then your steering goes all wonky

I've tried that, and also to elaborate on what someone else said, we shouldn't have to change our planes, and on a side note, even with the smallest and simplest of planes the game does this, even the stock planes do this 

On July 12, 2016 at 3:22 PM, bewing said:

Set the front wheels to have low friction (.4 or less), and the back wheels to have high friction (1.4 or higher).

This is a nice workaround, thanks, hopefully when 1.2 comes we won't have to find workarounds 

[bewing]

5 minutes ago, noobsrtoast said:

This is a nice workaround, thanks, hopefully when 1.2 comes we won't have to find workarounds 

Perhaps. But passive stability always comes from having "lots of drag in the back, and not much at the front." And that is precisely what you do when you set the friction this way. So I am not really classifying it as a workaround -- except that the "automatic friction" setting should do this automatically, as it were.

 

 

[Alshain]

4 minutes ago, bewing said:

Perhaps. But passive stability always comes from having "lots of drag in the back, and not much at the front." And that is precisely what you do when you set the friction this way. So I am not really classifying it as a workaround -- except that the "automatic friction" setting should do this automatically, as it were.

 

 

2+ wheels vs 1 wheel should already have more drag at the back.  The whole friction slider even existing is a workaround.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Alshain

[bewing]

Just now, Alshain said:

2+ wheels vs 1 wheel should already have more drag at the back.

Yes, but clearly it's not enough -- considering the number of people experiencing fishtailing, and then saying "yeah, OK, setting the friction that way actually helped."

[Alshain]

1 minute ago, bewing said:

Yes, but clearly it's not enough -- considering the number of people experiencing fishtailing, and then saying "yeah, OK, setting the friction that way actually helped."

That's because it is bugged.

[GarrisonChisholm]

On 7/13/2016 at 3:04 PM, Rocket In My Pocket said:

If you leave them on default and design your plane well, you'll be fine.

I'm sorry, but this absolutely makes me upset.  I designed Beautiful (to me), cool, capable aircraft before 1.1, and after 1.1 they veer and crash as soon as they exceed 35m/sec.  I have had solid, well intentioned coaching from experts on these forums (which I will not quote at the moment because I feel it would be unfair to drag them into a dispute), and the Only way my aircraft leave the runway is mounting sounding rockets at a 45 degree angle to the fuselage to lift them clear of the runway before the nose starts to veer.

Well designed planes do Not automatically work in 1.1 +.

For the record, I feel it is unfortunate, but I have found plenty of ways to enjoy the game as-is; I am not "upset" at Squad, I am miffed in the implication that if the craft does not fly it is not well designed.

 

[Rocket In My Pocket]

28 minutes ago, GarrisonChisholm said:

I'm sorry, but this absolutely makes me upset.  I designed Beautiful (to me), cool, capable aircraft before 1.1, and after 1.1 they veer and crash as soon as they exceed 35m/sec.  I have had solid, well intentioned coaching from experts on these forums (which I will not quote at the moment because I feel it would be unfair to drag them into a dispute), and the Only way my aircraft leave the runway is mounting sounding rockets at a 45 degree angle to the fuselage to lift them clear of the runway before the nose starts to veer.

Well designed planes do Not automatically work in 1.1 +.

For the record, I feel it is unfortunate, but I have found plenty of ways to enjoy the game as-is; I am not "upset" at Squad, I am miffed in the implication that if the craft does not fly it is not well designed.

 

I spend most of my time on KSP designing and flying planes.

From the very small, to the very large, from VTOL to Boatplanes.

I just simply haven't had any of the issues some people seem to be complaining about...and I make some pretty odd designs. I'm not telling you what problems you are and aren't experiencing, but if this was a truly global problem that had nothing to do with design...why are a lot of players having no problems at all? Personally, I haven't changed anything about how I design planes since the new landing gear system was introduced, I don't play with any of the friction/traction control sliders and yet all the planes I've made since then (dozens upon dozens) take off/land just fine. I'm certainly sorry if I upset you, but I've yet to see a problem with the new gear aside from a few minor bugs with placement and the whole "wheel blocked" thing.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Rocket In My Pocket

[GarrisonChisholm]

Well, I've shed a lot of mental blood and tears over it, so am perhaps overly sensitive.  I will leave the matter be, and quite gracious of you for offering an apology which, in retrospect, I feel embarrassed to accept.

Suffice to say, I look forward to wheel improvements in future releases.

[Daveroski]

If you place wheels so that they go straight on without having to rotate them then they should work pretty much every time.

If you put them on a radial hull then reinforce the hulls attachment with a strut. Again they should work fine.

If they are still not working properly try bigger wheels as they can only take so much mass before they get a bit of a wobble on.

 

[Rocket In My Pocket]

41 minutes ago, GarrisonChisholm said:

Suffice to say, I look forward to wheel improvements in future releases.

Don't worry about it, the DEV's have even said they are waiting for for the next Unity update to truly "fix" the wheels. My original post was probably somewhat ...snarky upon reflection, I'm not surprised someone took umbrage with it. 

Having done some testing, the only way I could reproduce the "fishtailing" and "wipeouts" people are reporting is to forcibly hold the nose down as I accelerated down the runway, admittedly this eventually at around 40-50 m/s resulted in the plane spinning out.

I'm thinking if a planes COM is too far forward it would put extra down pressure on the nose wheel and make the same thing happen. I think we can learn two things from this, keep the COM back towards the rear wheels, and try to get your nose up as soon as possible to take pressure off that front wheel. Maybe tail-dragger designs wouldn't suffer from this problem as much? I suppose the reason this problem seems to affect some while missing others completely all boils down to design preferences. So...I guess it's more of a coincidence than anything that I haven't had any problems.

[Val]

4 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

I haven't changed anything about how I design planes since the new landing gear system was introduced, I don't play with any of the friction/traction control sliders and yet all the planes I've made since then (dozens upon dozens) take off/land just fine.

This goes for me too. My planes don't veer or fishtail.

With the exception of undesized landing gear exploding for no good reason, when the plane lifts the wheels off the runway, I've had no issues in 1.1.x.

[bewing]

5 hours ago, GarrisonChisholm said:

I'm sorry, but this absolutely makes me upset.  I designed Beautiful (to me), cool, capable aircraft before 1.1, and after 1.1 they veer and crash as soon as they exceed 35m/sec.  I have had solid, well intentioned coaching from experts on these forums (which I will not quote at the moment because I feel it would be unfair to drag them into a dispute), and the Only way my aircraft leave the runway is mounting sounding rockets at a 45 degree angle to the fuselage to lift them clear of the runway before the nose starts to veer.

Well designed planes do Not automatically work in 1.1 +.

For the record, I feel it is unfortunate, but I have found plenty of ways to enjoy the game as-is; I am not "upset" at Squad, I am miffed in the implication that if the craft does not fly it is not well designed.

 

Post some craft files, and let the rest of us (who have no trouble with our planes) see these issues. We need examples before we can recognize problems.

[Alshain]

3 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Don't worry about it, the DEV's have even said they are waiting for for the next Unity update to truly "fix" the wheels. My original post was probably somewhat ...snarky upon reflection, I'm not surprised someone took umbrage with it. 

Having done some testing, the only way I could reproduce the "fishtailing" and "wipeouts" people are reporting is to forcibly hold the nose down as I accelerated down the runway, admittedly this eventually at around 40-50 m/s resulted in the plane spinning out.

I'm thinking if a planes COM is too far forward it would put extra down pressure on the nose wheel and make the same thing happen. I think we can learn two things from this, keep the COM back towards the rear wheels, and try to get your nose up as soon as possible to take pressure off that front wheel. Maybe tail-dragger designs wouldn't suffer from this problem as much? I suppose the reason this problem seems to affect some while missing others completely all boils down to design preferences. So...I guess it's more of a coincidence than anything that I haven't had any problems.

Not from my experience.  I have two very basic planes, simple as can be early career planes.  One is a taildragger and the other is a tricycle.  Neither will stay on the runway.  These are planes unchanged from 1.0.5.  Why is that some people don't see the problem?  I honestly have no idea.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Alshain

[Gaarst]

Wheels are bugged. That's it.

Even the worst designed plane in the world shouldn't bounce around after spawning on the runway. And I've seen planes that are meant to fly perfectly well going crazy before taking off (I know how to design a plane, thank you).

Now, some people don't see it (like the 1.1.0-2 VAB crashes) but that doesn't make the issue any different. No one seems to know what causes it or not and if you don't have it then great for you, but denying the problem does not help those affected.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Gaarst

[bewing]

4 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

Wheels are bugged. That's it.

Even the worst designed plane in the world shouldn't bounce around after spawning on the runway. And I've seen planes that are meant to fly perfectly well going crazy before taking off (I know how to design a plane, thank you).

Now, some people don't see it (like the 1.1.0-2 VAB crashes) but that doesn't make the issue any different. No one seems to know what causes it or not and if you don't have it then great for you, but denying the problem does not help those affected.

Not necessarily. It could be that your game is corrupted. There is this concept called "replicating a bug" which means you have to have somebody else able to test your stuff and see the same issue. Post a stinking craft file.

[noobsrtoast]

16 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

Wheels are bugged. That's it.

Even the worst designed plane in the world shouldn't bounce around after spawning on the runway. And I've seen planes that are meant to fly perfectly well going crazy before taking off (I know how to design a plane, thank you).

Now, some people don't see it (like the 1.1.0-2 VAB crashes) but that doesn't make the issue any different. No one seems to know what causes it or not and if you don't have it then great for you, but denying the problem does not help those affected.

Seeing replies like this helps calm my nerves though, because it means I'm not the only one having an issue with the new gear 

[bewing]

3 hours ago, noobsrtoast said:

Seeing replies like this helps calm my nerves though, because it means I'm not the only one having an issue with the new gear 

No, you are certainly not alone -- there are many many people having issues with the new gear. And there are many many people who have no issues at all. It's quite a dichotomy, but the burden of proof falls on the ones having problems.

[Gaarst]

12 hours ago, bewing said:

Not necessarily. It could be that your game is corrupted. There is this concept called "replicating a bug" which means you have to have somebody else able to test your stuff and see the same issue. Post a stinking craft file.

I've been playing KSP since 2012 and I know how to spot a bug. I experienced terrible wheel behaviours on freshly downloaded, clean, stock installs since 1.1.0.

The issue is not with crafts. A craft that works fine for you might be uncontrollable for me, and the other way around. Thing is, "replicating a bug" as you say, doesn't mean testing the thing on everyone's game and if not 100% of users experience it, then it's the users' faults and there is no bug. From 10-15% of people were seriously affected by the 1.1.2 VAB crashes, and guess what ? It was not their fault and Squad fixed the problem even though a large majority of users never experienced these crashes. Same here: there are enough people complaining about wheels being broken that I don't need to give you a bugged craft to prove my point.

If that's not enough to convince you there is something wrong that is not on the user end, here's a quotation by Squad, from this thread:

Quote

Amidst the work done to track and fix issues, Mike has started compiling a list of changes for 1.2, although it’s very uncertain at this point, pride of place is a Unity upgrade to 5.3 or 5.4 to fix the serious crash and wheel issues experienced.

and there are probably a lot of other messages where Squad staff state that there is an existing issue and that it has to be fixed with a Unity update coming with 1.2.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Gaarst

[pincushionman]

13 hours ago, Gaarst said:

Wheels are bugged. That's it.

While this is true, it doesn't mean that a user should rule out quirks in his own design being a problem, or that tweaks to it couldn't minimize the effects of the bug.

Buggy or not, the behavior wheels has explicitly changed, so it is reasonsble to assume that some designs will not work over the transition, while others port just fine.

The posters above, who make plane with no issues, have offered to inspect  the design of a buggy plane. Their findings could be "It works fine for me," which means it's all bug and an interaction between Unity and the particular system (worst case), "It breaks a little, but if you do this it goes away," or "this design is terrible, do this instead." Until we see, we don't know which.

EDIT: And for all of you insisting you can fly drive whith no real problems, can you link to one of yours for him to try? That could be helpful too.

Edited July 16, 2016 by pincushionman