Why is this game still on the market place?

[Snark]

2 minutes ago, ChillingCammy said:

The fact that Nestor explicitly said they didn't find these bugs in THREE rounds of QA is a hard pill to swallow. 

 

 

Yup, I can certainly see how it might appear that way, to someone who hasn't shipped software for a living.

Not saying I don't raise an eyebrow or two, myself.  However, an even harder pill for me to swallow, speaking as someone who has been doing this for a living for a good long while, is the theory that it was found, and fixable, and had no complicating factors, and someone in effect just said "ha ha, why not just ship it anyway, just for kicks."

There are always reasons for things. The fact that you don't know what they are doesn't mean they're not there.

I've seen products with worse problems than this one, selling for a lot more than $40, produced by much bigger organizations than Squad, go out the door... because there was a hole in the process somewhere that nobody realized at the time, until it had already shipped.  Software production is hard. There are a lot of ways to miss something in a way that's not obvious except in hindsight, even if you're trying hard and know what you're doing, especially if you're moving at high velocity.

So, yeah, I can swallow that particular pill. I've seen plenty worse ones.

[chimpbone]

Thought I would chime in on this. It is bugging me that KSP is still up in the Xbox marketplace too. This is probably one of the most frustrating game experiences I've had. Just read in another thread that there is no plans to bring mods to console, which means that this is it. This buggy mess is what we paid $40 U.S. dollars for. This is not the same game that they are selling on PC. This is "KSP broken console edition" which is not cool. Half of what makes this game is the mods. There is a modding Monday every week, the developers encourage users to use mods, and the mod section is the most popular section in this forum. To leave that feature out is just wrong. Why do Kerbals have to be so greedy?

[Motokid600]

The fact that they got a game that never should've worked on a console to said consoles is a miracle in its own right.

[Alshain]

 

21 minutes ago, chimpbone said:

This is not the same game that they are selling on PC. This is "KSP broken console edition" which is not cool.

In fact it is the game they are selling on the PC.  The mods are not part of what Squad is selling or have ever sold.  They certainly enjoy that the PC game can be modded, but it isn't part of the game they sell.

21 minutes ago, chimpbone said:

Half of what makes this game is the mods. There is a modding Monday every week, the developers encourage users to use mods, and the mod section is the most popular section in this forum. To leave that feature out is just wrong. Why do Kerbals have to be so greedy?

You seem to be misinformed.  Sony and Microsoft (and Nintendo) do not allow mods of the type on their systems.  To the console makers, these type of mods represent a security flaw that would potentially allow users to commit acts of piracy on their systems.   Mods require code not written by Squad to be able to be run on the PC, code that the console developers would require to be certified (a costly venture no mod maker would do).  Squad didn't leave anything out because they didn't add anything like that to be left out.  The PC modders are simply taking advantage of the more open architecture, in a few cases perhaps Squad has gone out of their way to not hinder their efforts, but they didn't add modding into the game through any conscious decision.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Alshain

[chimpbone]

4 minutes ago, Alshain said:

You seem to be misinformed.  Sony and Microsoft (and Nintendo) do not allow mods of the type on their systems.  Mods require code not written by Squad to be able to be run on the PC, code that the console developers would require to be certified (a costly venture no mod maker would do).  Squad didn't leave anything out because they didn't add anything like that to be left out.

I think you might be misinformed. Fallout 4 has mods on console and it is the most popular game in the Xbox marketplace. Bringing mods into a single player game really adds a lot to the experience and people know this. Besides that, I was under the impression that KSP for console would be putting a lot of the more popular mods into the base game, which they have done in the past. 

[Alshain]

6 minutes ago, chimpbone said:

I think you might be misinformed. Fallout 4 has mods on console and it is the most popular game in the Xbox marketplace. Bringing mods into a single player game really adds a lot to the experience and people know this. Besides that, I was under the impression that KSP for console would be putting a lot of the more popular mods into the base game, which they have done in the past. 

Again, you are misinformed.  Fallout 4 has scripting mods and that capability was explicitly added by the game developers.  No explicit modding capability has been added to any version of KSP, ever.  They just leave the access to it's members public so mods can access it, something a console will not allow you to do.

The good news is, they just hired the developers of two mods that add an explicit scripting ability (Module Manager and Contract Configurator).  We don't know that means they will be adding that function to the game, but it is very suspicious at the least.

Also, the console version of KSP has a lot of the popular mods in the base game.  About 80% (very rough estimate on my part) of the parts that exist in the game today were from the most popular mods, that along with many features that were directly or indirectly taken from mods.  Of course those also exist in the PC version.  If you were under the impression that the console version would have something more than the PC version then you developed a false impression all on your own.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Alshain

[chimpbone]

3 minutes ago, Alshain said:

Again, you are misinformed.  Fallout 4 has scripting mods and that capability was explicitly added by the game developers.  No explicit modding capability has been added to any version of KSP, ever.  They just leave the access to it's members public so mods can access it, something a console will not allow you to do.

Also, the console version of KSP has a lot of the popular mods in the base game.  About 80% (very rough estimate on my part) of the parts that exist in the game today were from the most popular mods, that along with many features that were directly or indirectly taken from mods.  Of course those also exist in the PC version.  If you were under the impression that the console version would have something more than the PC version then you developed a false impression all on your own.

Squad could have had mods on console. They just don't. They didn't add that capability but they could have. KSP didn't need to add that to the PC version, I get it. Game development for consoles and PC is different. What they didn't have to do for PC, they might have to do for console in order to run mods. What exactly am I misinformed about? You make it sound as if it's impossible. Do you just not think that consoles should have mods or something?

[nascarlaser1]

I get the sinking feeling that this may turn into a flame war soon, so is there any chance of ending this argument on good terms, or keeping it on good terms plz? I also think that squad should not take down the game off the market. Every single game in the universe has bugs in it. Even minecraft which has taken the entire world by storm, has bugs galore in it. In time, squad shall fix it.

[Alshain]

14 minutes ago, chimpbone said:

Squad could have had mods on console. They just don't. They didn't add that capability but they could have. KSP didn't need to add that to the PC version, I get it. Game development for consoles and PC is different. What they didn't have to do for PC, they might have to do for console in order to run mods.

They could have had pink flying monkeys on the console version, but they just don't.  If you have a feature request there is a forum right here.  However be aware new features take development time and well, we all want stuff.  So Squad has to decide and prioritize and right now, that ability has not been at the top.  Their reasons are their own.

14 minutes ago, chimpbone said:

What exactly am I misinformed about? You make it sound as if it's impossible. Do you just not think that consoles should have mods or something?

You are misinformed about Squad "leaving something out".  They left nothing out, except keyboard and mouse support for some reason, but that is another issue entirely and I suspect one that will be corrected (though I do not know that).  You are misinformed if you that you seem to think Squad intended to give consoles something extra than PC doesn't have.  I can say with a fair amount of certainty that if they do give you scripting support, the PC version will get it as well, and likely first.

I certainly do not think consoles shouldn't have modding, I'm just telling you that you should never have expected it to.

9 minutes ago, nascarlaser1 said:

I get the sinking feeling that this may turn into a flame war soon, so is there any chance of ending this argument on good terms, or keeping it on good terms plz?

I think the conversation has been pretty a civilized discussion.  I certainly haven't felt I was the victim of flaming from anyone, I would hope nobody thought I was trying to.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Alshain

[magnemoe]

19 minutes ago, chimpbone said:

I think you might be misinformed. Fallout 4 has mods on console and it is the most popular game in the Xbox marketplace. Bringing mods into a single player game really adds a lot to the experience and people know this. Besides that, I was under the impression that KSP for console would be putting a lot of the more popular mods into the base game, which they have done in the past. 

Fallout and the upcoming Skyim relaunch is the two exceptions. However mods in KSP work on an totally different way than Fallout mods, I have moded Skyrim who work the same way. 
First the files are packaged into one or two files for the mod, KSP uses loose files, this make the mod harder to manage. 
Second and more important, any mod who is more than an part mod have to use scripts, in Fallout you have an quest editor and an internal script engine who can not do anything outside the game, scripts are use a lot for all sort of stuff, both quests but also weapon and gear effects.
Note that mods on consoles are very new, as in one game from an well known developer with deep pockets.
KSP uses DLL who in practice can do anything, its no way it would be allowed on console. 
 

[chimpbone]

@Alshain, maybe my expectations were too high for this game on console. That's fair. But all I was expecting was what I had seen from watching people play on youtube before I bought it on console. For one, I didn't know clouds on Kerbin was a visual mod as it seems everybody uses this. I just thought this, and some others like SCANsat, were part of the game. That being said, I am disappointed with my experience on console. It does feel like it is missing something. 

[Wjolcz]

This game is clearly not finished, even though it has a "released" status. Screw the look of parts and the lack of basic info. They always stated it won't make it's way into the stock. I can mod that. The career though! It was meant to be in the game from almost the beginning and yet it's still crap. All we've been getting so far is a bunch of "tweaks", which frankly didn't do much.

Now that the console version is out I can only hope the console players will use their voices and request the much needed change.

[Alshain]

15 minutes ago, chimpbone said:

@Alshain, maybe my expectations were too high for this game on console. That's fair. But all I was expecting was what I had seen from watching people play on youtube before I bought it on console. For one, I didn't know clouds on Kerbin was a visual mod as it seems everybody uses this. I just thought this, and some others like SCANsat, were part of the game. That being said, I am disappointed with my experience on console. It does feel like it is missing something. 

Well I have good news for you on that front.  Prior to 1.1's release we were promised a visual overhaul by the then producer Maxmaps.  The details of what graphical overhaul meant were not disclosed. The specific statement (paraphrased) was that they had seen all the beautiful video and screenshots of mod users and they wanted that and so they were going to do it. This was not only prior to 1.1 but prior to the knowledge of Unity 5's release I think.

I have no reason to believe that isn't still in the pipeline but complications with the Unity 5 build necessitated further releases to fix issues.  Also, before you throw in clouds which will drag the system down you need to optimize what you have and that is what they are doing in 1.2.  My guess, and that is entirely a guess, is that 1.3 will be this overhaul and further guess is that it will include stock clouds.

1.2 will have a feature called KerbNet which looks like a sort-of partial implementation of ScanSAT.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Alshain

[DoctorDavinci]

8 minutes ago, chimpbone said:

@Alshain, maybe my expectations were too high for this game on console. That's fair. But all I was expecting was what I had seen from watching people play on youtube before I bought it on console. For one, I didn't know clouds on Kerbin was a visual mod as it seems everybody uses this. I just thought this, and some others like SCANsat, were part of the game. That being said, I am disappointed with my experience on console. It does feel like it is missing something. 

I'm curious as to how it is Squads fault that you had high expectations for this game on console based off of YouTube videos you watched of people playing KSP on PC

Glass is made out of silica which is solid, however did you know that glass is actually a highly viscous liquid? ... Food for thought

[Wjolcz]

3 minutes ago, Alshain said:

Well I have good news for you on that front.  Prior to 1.1's release we were promised a visual overhaul by the then producer Maxmaps.  The details of what graphical overhaul meant were not disclosed. This was not only prior to 1.1 but prior to the knowledge of Unity 5's release I think.

We were also promised the so called "Shmelta-Vee".

Maybe the dev team rotation is a good thing. Maybe the new guys will actually try to do something about the game instead of throwing in more stuff instead of fixing the old ones all the time.

 

4 minutes ago, Alshain said:

I have no reason to believe that isn't still in the pipeline but complications with the Unity 5 build necessitated further releases to fix issues.  Also, before you throw in clouds which will drag the system down you need to optimize what you have and that is what they are doing in 1.2.  My guess, and that is entirely a guess, is that 1.3 will be this overhaul and further guess is that it will include stock clouds.

Oh, yeah. Clouds. I really hope they will do something about the career though. It's been there being bad and getting the so needed tweaks.

Maybe they can do both at once (I really doubt that though). Anyway, my point is that making it look shiny and nice will probably sell the game well, but it won't be a good game.

Forgot to include the quotation marks somewhere. Guess where.

[Alshain]

Just now, Veeltch said:

We were also promised the so called "Shmelta-Vee".

That's true but that was on an unofficial channel (MaxMaps' private twitter).  The Visual overhaul was promised on Squadcast and he was always much more selective about what he told us there.

[ChillingCammy]

Console player buys game, expecting it to work right away. 

 

PC players insist this is how it is with Squad how dare you expect otherwise.

 

Buyer beware I guess 

[nascarlaser1]

Just now, ChillingCammy said:

Console player buys game, expecting it to work right away. 

 

PC players insist this is how it is with Squad how dare you expect otherwise.

 

Buyer beware I guess 

Plenty of console players have bought minecraft, which is often full of bugs (that's why people invented bug updates), yet you say console player buys game, and expects it to work right away. How does that make any sense, or even possible???

[Wjolcz]

2 minutes ago, ChillingCammy said:

PC players insist this is how it is with Squad how dare you expect otherwise.

More like "this is how it's meant to be played", or "if you don't like it just mod it".

[ChillingCammy]

Console minecraft has never crashed for me...

[nascarlaser1]

1 minute ago, ChillingCammy said:

Console minecraft has never crashed for me...

Neither has pc Kerbal crashed for me.

[magnemoe]

48 minutes ago, chimpbone said:

Squad could have had mods on console. They just don't. They didn't add that capability but they could have. KSP didn't need to add that to the PC version, I get it. Game development for consoles and PC is different. What they didn't have to do for PC, they might have to do for console in order to run mods. What exactly am I misinformed about? You make it sound as if it's impossible. Do you just not think that consoles should have mods or something?

Squad is not Bethesda-Zenimax, its some degree in size difference, add that Bethesda has been lobbying for mods for consoles since Oblvion development 10 years ago and still don't have it on PS4. 
 

[DoctorDavinci]

3 minutes ago, ChillingCammy said:

Console player buys game, expecting it to work right away. 

 

PC players insist this is how it is with Squad how dare you expect otherwise.

 

Buyer beware I guess 

So console games don't have bugs?

Man, I've been wrong all this time thinking that all software have glitches and gremlins ... I guess I should just sell my computers and get a console now since we all know how annoying bugs can be ... It's taken your insight to make me see the truth, I think we gotta hug ........

But seriously, name a game that doesn't have glitches or full blown bugs on console

2 minutes ago, ChillingCammy said:

Console minecraft has never crashed for me...

Just because you don't experience a bug doesn't mean it isn't there

[ChillingCammy]

2 minutes ago, nascarlaser1 said:

Neither has pc Kerbal crashed for me.

This thread is about why is console version is unplayable and should not be sold

1 minute ago, DoctorDavinci said:

So console games don't have bugs?

Man, I've been wrong all this time thinking that all software have glitches and gremlins ... I guess I should just sell my computers and get a console now since we all know how annoying bugs can be ... It's taken your insight to make me see the truth, I think we gotta hug ........

But seriously, name a game that doesn't have glitches or full blown bugs on console

Just because you don't experience a bug doesn't mean it isn't there

Glad you have seen the light. 

 

Join me in the movement.  Make your profile cow themed to protest being milked for a broken copy

[nascarlaser1]

Just now, ChillingCammy said:

This thread is about why is console version is unplayable and should not be sold

Then why are you talking about mods and such in your argument? plenty of games don't have mods, yet they are playable. Just because a game that was just released has a few bugs in it, does not make it unplayable. If every game that was released worked on its first try, then we would be living in a perfect universe, which we are not.