# [1.3] TAC - Life Support v0.13.2 - Release 29th May 2017

## 527 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Hello.
I have some questions.

I place a Carbon extractor and Water purifier. I have a water and oxygen for 9 days. And food for several years. And electricity for 30 days and solar panels. And 1 pilot.

1) Something wrong with water purifier balance.

When i use warp while ship is active it's all almost ok. Water remaining is always = 9 days.
But waste water >0 and increase. Summary water and waste water amount is increasing. As i see, pilot produce more waste water, then consume. Something is taken from nowhere.
If i'll take half-empty water tank in will be full after some time.
It's strange.

2) Something wrong with carbon extractor balance.

Even carbon extractor produce more oxygen then consume carbon dioxide (what?) oxygen is ended.
As i see, pilot produce less carbon dioxide, then consume oxygen.
And oxygen is end at time. And no carbon dioxide. So i can take full carbon dioxide tank at start to produce more oxygen. Something is given to nowhere.
It's strange.

3) Is it possible to use a recuperators at background?

When i use warp while ship is active it's all almost ok. Recuperators are works.
When I switch to the space centre, the update time begins to increase, while the remaining values begin to decrease
9 days later, when remaining values are close to 0, i must to switch to ship and see normal values. If i do not switch to ship the pilot will die.

So, if i have 3 space station with crew, i have to switch to every station every week. Even if the stations have recuperators and a supply of food for a years.
Is it a bug or a feature? Or may be i do something wrong?

4) Is it possible to calculate the remaining amount of water and oxygen given the presence of recuperators?

If the electricity balance is positive. So, If there is electricity and enough recuperators, maybe it's worth considering the remaining time using recuperators?
And print something like "Water remaning: 3 days (endless with recuperation)", "Oxygen remaning: 3 days (9 day with recuperation)".

5) If answer to 3 is "No" - is it possible to use a values calculated with recuperators at background timeout?
After a day print something like "Oxygen remaning: 2.666 days (8 day with recuperation)"

##### Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1) Something wrong with water purifier balance.

When i use warp while ship is active it's all almost ok. Water remaining is always = 9 days.
But waste water >0 and increase. Summary water and waste water amount is increasing. As i see, pilot produce more waste water, then consume. Something is taken from nowhere.
If i'll take half-empty water tank in will be full after some time.
It's strange.

Yes, when you compare the water consumed to the water recovered from waste water you'll see the Kerbals produce more than they consume. The additional water is coming from the food consumed. The total mass of a Kerbals intake (Food+Water+Oxygen) is equal to the total mass of their production (CO2+Waste Water+Waste) so nothing is created or lost.

2) Something wrong with carbon extractor balance.

Even carbon extractor produce more oxygen then consume carbon dioxide (what?) oxygen is ended.
As i see, pilot produce less carbon dioxide, then consume oxygen.
And oxygen is end at time. And no carbon dioxide. So i can take full carbon dioxide tank at start to produce more oxygen. Something is given to nowhere.
It's strange.

The mass of the CO2 input is equal to the mass of the O2 and Waste(C) output so in that sense it's balanced. 1 kg of CO2 converts to 0.7270884695 kg of O2 and 0.2729115305 kg of Waste (C). We'll need someone with better chemistry grades than me to answer if that's correct. I have a feeling these numbers have been vetted by now.

TAC-LS doesn't have a concept of CO2 saturation like would happen in reality, it's just stored in tanks. You can load up on stored CO2 and convert it to O2 later. Storing water and using the water splitter to make oxygen would probably be more authentic.

Edited by Jso
1 person likes this

##### Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

O, thank you.
It's seems logical.

I have not used sabatier since it consumes water.
I try to use sabatier with water purifier. Pilot + purifier produce more water, which used by sabatier. So, for this pair, oxygen and water are infinite.

Questions about calculation using enabled recuperators still remain .

##### Share on other sites

I have not used sabatier since it consumes water.
I try to use sabatier with water purifier. Pilot + purifier produce more water, which used by sabatier. So, for this pair, oxygen and water are infinite.

No, they aren't, because some of the water is coming from food.

##### Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Looks like this mod doesn't work properly with saving kerbals from space if they wait for us in some pod, which we should recover with kerbonaut inside. My kerbonaut died when I came for her and her pod, but everything ok with other simple rescue contracts.

Edited by Alexoff

##### Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alexoff said:

Looks like this mod doesn't work properly with saving kerbals from space if they wait for us in some pod, which we should recover with kerbonaut inside. My kerbonaut died when I came for her and her pod, but everything ok with other simple rescue contracts.

Well that shouldn't be happening.
TAC LS should be behaving now with both types of rescue contracts.
The timer starts for a Kerbal in a part once that part is loaded/in range. As long as you don't swap to their part/vessel it should not start counting.
If anyone can provide further details of any situation this is not working, including logs and save files that would be much appreciated.

##### Share on other sites

I'll do some mission spam in a bit to see if I can find which missions aren't playing nice.  To note I have not had a contract error since you fixed my last report, though I have yet to see a landed rescue come up.  Expect an update in a bit.

##### Share on other sites

After some 30 rescue contracts (Mun and Kerbin only) including 2 rescue and recover and 1 mun landed, I encountered no errors involving TAC-LS.  All life support loaded only after entering physics range of the craft.  Sorry I cannot recreate the issue.

##### Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I've noticed a bug where the mission status summary starts reporting non-focused vessels as having extra crew each time crew on the focused vessel go EVA and return. At least where there are spare seats in the unfocused vessel.

Consequences seem limited; while the vessel will be reported as running out of a resource or having depleted it, TAC seems to re-calculate the actual supplies onboard when you focus the vessel using the correct crew count. Crew don't appear to die while the vessel is unfocused, or the bug in the status summary isn't sufficient to cause death.

1.2.2, x86_64, Linux.

I'll work on a repro case, but mentioning this in case it's an "oh, duh, I know what that is" problem.

Oh, and on an entirely unrelated note (forum software merged posts, sigh): Personally I'd love extra time-limited rescue missions where you've got only so long to reach the stranded kerbal before they kark it. But I suspect it'd be somewhat difficult to implement it so it wasn't too easy, but wasn't impossible or entirely unrealistic to reach them if planetary configurations were unfavourable. It'd probably need to be aware of relative planetary configuration, and I don't know if the contracts subsystem can do that.

It'd be fun though. "Hey, the vessel Jules is in suffered unplanned spontaneous disassembly while aerobraking in Eve's atmosphere. He was able to use RCS and vent some waste to raise his orbit so he won't re-enter Eve's atmosphere and crash, but he's running really low on biscuits and would appreciate a lift. Pronto, like. He's got about a year of half rations before he has to start eating the furniture, and there's no furniture, so scram."

Edited by ringerc

##### Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, overkill13 said:

After some 30 rescue contracts (Mun and Kerbin only) including 2 rescue and recover and 1 mun landed, I encountered no errors involving TAC-LS.  All life support loaded only after entering physics range of the craft.  Sorry I cannot recreate the issue.

Can you try mine? To see if it is only me.

Save files 1 is before i accept the mission 2 after

Edited by EnigmaG

##### Share on other sites

I had the issue with a surface rescue Kerbal being out of supplies and dying immediately when he came in loading range. Couldn't switch to him so he shouldn't have been loaded at any point. Unfortunately I don't have save or anything to share of it. I just disabled TAC when I went to save him.

I'm not quite sure what triggered it but TAC did warn about him being out of supplies way before I went to save him. Hasn't happened with any others.

##### Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Varsi said:

I had the issue with a surface rescue Kerbal being out of supplies and dying immediately when he came in loading range. Couldn't switch to him so he shouldn't have been loaded at any point. Unfortunately I don't have save or anything to share of it. I just disabled TAC when I went to save him.

I'm not quite sure what triggered it but TAC did warn about him being out of supplies way before I went to save him. Hasn't happened with any others.

I'll start with the obvious question, is your TAC-LS up to date.  This is exactly what happened to me several weeks ago during a rescue and recover, with no issues for regular orbital rescues.  Accept the contract, leave Mission Control and the life support loads and you get a warning indicating depletion.  Kerbal dies in 3 hours from lack of oxygen or power.  I reported it and, as per my testing last night, it seems to have been fixed.

Edit:  See my next post.  EnigmaG's posted save did cause an error for me.

Edited by overkill13

##### Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, EnigmaG said:

Can you try mine? To see if it is only me.

Save files 1 is before i accept the mission 2 after

I did indeed have an issue.  I think this has less to do with mission types, my initial assumption, than with the random glitches that cause crew numbers and LS values to report incorrectly.  Shortly after this I was attempting to recreate it in my game file, but instead it afflicted one of my already launched vessels.  When I launched a new ship, the LS resources reported empty on another ship, O2, H2O and food showed none remaining, red and counting down.  Electricity showed 0:NaN, grey no countdown.  The 0:NaN bit is consitent between the random error on my save and the rescue Kerbal in Enigma's.  Because my ship has resources on board, loading it caused the TAC system to reload and show correctly on the report panel.  Obviously, loading a ship/Kerbal on a rescue contract without a rendezvous is not possible.

I can't reliably recreate this in my save, but EnigmaG's does it every time I replace the save file then accept the contract and launch a vessel.  I think this affects a random ship, or one decided by some code string I'm not privy too, but because the rescue is the only ship in the game, other than the launching vessel, on EnigmaG's save it always affects it.

Steps:

Enter mission control and accept the landed rescue and recover contract on the moon.

Exit mission control, option: note that the vessel does not show up on the TAC LS report panel at all

Build a vessel and launch

Once ship loads on the launch pad the game will load the rescue contract Kerbal into the TAC LS report panel, indicate empty resources and begin countdown.

Edited by overkill13

##### Share on other sites
3 hours ago, overkill13 said:

I'll start with the obvious question, is your TAC-LS up to date.  This is exactly what happened to me several weeks ago during a rescue and recover, with no issues for regular orbital rescues.  Accept the contract, leave Mission Control and the life support loads and you get a warning indicating depletion.  Kerbal dies in 3 hours from lack of oxygen or power.  I reported it and, as per my testing last night, it seems to have been fixed.

Edit:  See my next post.  EnigmaG's posted save did cause an error for me.

Yep. 0.12.9.0.

Since you mentioned random glitches in the next message it reminded me that I did once get warning about my station running out of supplies as well. This seemed odd since the station had like 17 years of supplies (other than ec). Everything was fine after loading the station.

Will have to keep an eye on this and check logs if it happens again for some craft.

##### Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

20 hours ago, JPLRepo said:

Well that shouldn't be happening.
TAC LS should be behaving now with both types of rescue contracts.
The timer starts for a Kerbal in a part once that part is loaded/in range. As long as you don't swap to their part/vessel it should not start counting.
If anyone can provide further details of any situation this is not working, including logs and save files that would be much appreciated.

Here is log and persistent save file, I should rescue Magbeth with her debris. My game is quite overmoded...

As i understand, error is in this part:

CrewMemberInfo
{
name = Magbeth Kerman
lastUpdate = 2221727.7717033071
lastFood = 2221727.7717033071
lastWater = 2221727.7717033071
vesselName = Magbeth's Debris
vesselId = 6d1e45c0-99d4-4f37-b386-373b0f1f36ca
vesselIsPreLaunch = True
hibernating = False
DFFrozen = False
recoverykerbal = False
crewType = Unowned
}

And it should be "true", and later recoveryvessel should be true. Maybe because it's part from mod.

Edited by Alexoff
1 person likes this

##### Share on other sites

Alexoff, do you have a quicksave from just before that contract was accepted?

##### Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

21 hours ago, Alexoff said:

And it should be "true", and later recoveryvessel should be true. Maybe because it's part from mod.

yep, same for me...and  the part is modded too in my save file

partName = Malemute.RoverCrewCab
partID = 0

full version of contract is:
Before acсept save:

```CONTRACT
{
guid = caf8b9f9-6aa8-4258-97a7-d9f5798115c3
type = RecoverAsset
prestige = 2
seed = -2020780856
state = Offered
agent = Kerbodyne
expiryType = Floating
values = 86400,115020000,71175,162608,71175,0,11,22,1322433.35020294,0,0,0
targetBody = 3
kerbalName = Gitina Kerman
partName = Malemute.RoverCrewCab
partID = 0
recoveryLocation = 3
recoveryType = 1
gender = 2
PARAM
{
name = AcquireCrew
state = Incomplete
values = 18068,0,0,5,0
title = Save Gitina Kerman
winOn = 0
}
PARAM
{
name = RecoverKerbal
state = Incomplete
values = 0,0,0,0,0
title = Recover Gitina Kerman on Kerbin
failOn = All
winOn = All
}
}
```
```KERBAL
{
name = Gitina Kerman
gender = Female
type = Unowned
trait = Pilot
brave = 0.461605072
dumb = 0.0977146253
veteran = False
tour = False
state = Assigned
inactive = False
inactiveTimeEnd = 0
gExperienced = 0
outDueToG = False
ToD = 0
idx = -1
extraXP = 0
CAREER_LOG
{
flight = 0
}
FLIGHT_LOG
{
flight = 0
}
}```

After accept and change active ship to any vessel:

```CONTRACT
{
guid = caf8b9f9-6aa8-4258-97a7-d9f5798115c3
type = RecoverAsset
prestige = 2
seed = -2020780856
state = Active
agent = Kerbodyne
expiryType = Floating
values = 86400,115020000,71175,162608,71175,0,11,22,1322433.35020294,1239737.42788589,0,0
targetBody = 3
kerbalName = Gitina Kerman
partName = Malemute.RoverCrewCab
partID = 3655255199
recoveryLocation = 3
recoveryType = 1
gender = 2
PARAM
{
name = AcquireCrew
state = Incomplete
values = 18068,0,0,5,0
title = Save Gitina Kerman
winOn = 0
kerbal = Gitina Kerman
}
PARAM
{
name = RecoverKerbal
state = Incomplete
values = 0,0,0,0,0
title = Recover Gitina Kerman on Kerbin
failOn = All
winOn = All
kerbal = Gitina Kerman
}
}```
```CrewMemberInfo
{
name = Gitina Kerman
lastUpdate = 1239743.7478858933
lastFood = 1239743.7478858933
lastWater = 1239743.7478858933
vesselName = Gitina Kerman
vesselId = 61f5afe5-c6ee-49f1-843b-3490aff97c72
vesselIsPreLaunch = True
hibernating = False
DFFrozen = False
recoverykerbal = False
crewType = Unowned
}```

recoverykerbal = False <---

------

move to any ship and all resourses is depleted

Edited by *MajorTom*

##### Share on other sites
21 hours ago, jhousen said:

Alexoff, do you have a quicksave from just before that contract was accepted?

Nope, I use only one quicksave for looking some problems!

##### Share on other sites

Same, again, here. Rescue in Mun, kerbal in EVA, TAC LS countdown.

##### Share on other sites

Thanks for all the info folks and a couple of save files. That helps a lot, assuming I can recreate the problem quickly I should be able to fix it quickly.
I'll take a look.

<Edit> except the save files are full of mods... Yeah so that doesn't help me.
I don't have 2 hours to install all the mods you have installed.

##### Share on other sites
On 3/14/2017 at 7:20 AM, Alexoff said:

Here is log and persistent save file, I should rescue Magbeth with her debris. My game is quite overmoded...

As i understand, error is in this part:

CrewMemberInfo
{
name = Magbeth Kerman
lastUpdate = 2221727.7717033071
lastFood = 2221727.7717033071
lastWater = 2221727.7717033071
vesselName = Magbeth's Debris
vesselId = 6d1e45c0-99d4-4f37-b386-373b0f1f36ca
vesselIsPreLaunch = True
hibernating = False
DFFrozen = False
recoverykerbal = False
crewType = Unowned
}

And it should be "true", and later recoveryvessel should be true. Maybe because it's part from mod.

Thanks but your log is incomplete and save file has a lot of mods installed.
I can't do much with that Sorry.

On 3/14/2017 at 0:14 AM, overkill13 said:

I did indeed have an issue.  I think this has less to do with mission types, my initial assumption, than with the random glitches that cause crew numbers and LS values to report incorrectly.  Shortly after this I was attempting to recreate it in my game file, but instead it afflicted one of my already launched vessels.  When I launched a new ship, the LS resources reported empty on another ship, O2, H2O and food showed none remaining, red and counting down.  Electricity showed 0:NaN, grey no countdown.  The 0:NaN bit is consitent between the random error on my save and the rescue Kerbal in Enigma's.  Because my ship has resources on board, loading it caused the TAC system to reload and show correctly on the report panel.  Obviously, loading a ship/Kerbal on a rescue contract without a rendezvous is not possible.

I can't reliably recreate this in my save, but EnigmaG's does it every time I replace the save file then accept the contract and launch a vessel.  I think this affects a random ship, or one decided by some code string I'm not privy too, but because the rescue is the only ship in the game, other than the launching vessel, on EnigmaG's save it always affects it.

Steps:

Enter mission control and accept the landed rescue and recover contract on the moon.

Exit mission control, option: note that the vessel does not show up on the TAC LS report panel at all

Build a vessel and launch

Once ship loads on the launch pad the game will load the rescue contract Kerbal into the TAC LS report panel, indicate empty resources and begin countdown.

Again, way too many mods installed.
You see, to use your save file I have to download and setup an install with all the mods you have installed.. and I don't have the time.

##### Share on other sites
On 3/14/2017 at 0:14 AM, overkill13 said:

I did indeed have an issue.  I think this has less to do with mission types, my initial assumption, than with the random glitches that cause crew numbers and LS values to report incorrectly.  Shortly after this I was attempting to recreate it in my game file, but instead it afflicted one of my already launched vessels.  When I launched a new ship, the LS resources reported empty on another ship, O2, H2O and food showed none remaining, red and counting down.  Electricity showed 0:NaN, grey no countdown.  The 0:NaN bit is consitent between the random error on my save and the rescue Kerbal in Enigma's.  Because my ship has resources on board, loading it caused the TAC system to reload and show correctly on the report panel.  Obviously, loading a ship/Kerbal on a rescue contract without a rendezvous is not possible.

I can't reliably recreate this in my save, but EnigmaG's does it every time I replace the save file then accept the contract and launch a vessel.  I think this affects a random ship, or one decided by some code string I'm not privy too, but because the rescue is the only ship in the game, other than the launching vessel, on EnigmaG's save it always affects it.

Steps:

Enter mission control and accept the landed rescue and recover contract on the moon.

Exit mission control, option: note that the vessel does not show up on the TAC LS report panel at all

Build a vessel and launch

Once ship loads on the launch pad the game will load the rescue contract Kerbal into the TAC LS report panel, indicate empty resources and begin countdown.

There is no rescue and recover contract from the Mun in the attached files.

##### Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JPLRepo said:

Thanks but your log is incomplete and save file has a lot of mods installed.
I can't do much with that Sorry.

Again, way too many mods installed.
You see, to use your save file I have to download and setup an install with all the mods you have installed.. and I don't have the time.

You can run mine with vanilla + TAC - Life Support.  I tried it.

##### Share on other sites
On 3/13/2017 at 5:31 AM, EnigmaG said:

Can you try mine? To see if it is only me.

Save files 1 is before i accept the mission 2 after

I concur.  I just pulled every mod I have other than TAC and this save file works fine and consistently generates the error.

It's the last mission on the list, requires a scroll down.  "Recover Camke and his debris from the surface of the Mun".

1 person likes this

##### Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I just installed this addon, I really like it and everything seems to work correctly excepting this... Is it normal that my Kerbals are needing oxygen tanks when they are on Kerbin? (I read on the Wiki of "TAC Life Support" that when you are on Kerbin, you can use the oxygen from the atmosphere. No need to have oxygen tanks? ) I have a mobile processing lab with a big air intake and it's having a lot of electricity but the two Kerbals inside still don't have oxygen to breath! The lab is right beside the runway at KSC... What am I doing wrong?!﻿

Edited by Frank Einstein