The Heat Death - Is it survivable?

[Der Anfang]

Let's suppose that by a miracle, humanity survive for trillions (or more orders of magnitudes more) years. Somehow we end up conquering galaxies and we extend extensively across the universe. Even if we have a very firm foothold in hundreds (or thousands) of galaxies, what would we do in the face of the ever dimming stars? Could we survive in a universe without any stars? I don't know what we could do with black holes, but those would be the last "stars" to survive the universe, but even those will eventually disappear from hawking radiation.

And yes, I am also taking into consideration of the "breakdown of matter". Or.. decay of matter? Whatever it is. That's probably far worse than facing eternal coldness, starless skies. Exactly what could we do if we were faced in the situation that our very universe was slowly turning into atomic mush? Is it impossible to do anything about that?

Probably not. Thoughts? I'm curious. This is a question I've been thinking about for a while. Even if there is nothing we could do about our own universe from dying, I still wonder what we would really do? Would humanity just kick back and say "Well, that was fun."? Could there be ways to save humanity even beyond the heat death and the breakdown of the universe?

[mikegarrison]

By definition, if the universe really reached maximum entropy then no life could function.

[Mitchz95]

Unless we A) find a way to reverse/stall entropy or B) figure out extradimensional travel, I'm gonna go with 'no'.

[HebaruSan]

I think this video is relevant. I've been catching up on this channel's back catalog, and while some of the ideas are a bit fanciful, he tends at least to stick to non-impossible physics (if not practical engineering). Fair warning, he's got the same speech impediment as Elmer Fudd.

 

[Superfluous J]

8 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Fair warning, he's got the same speech impediment as Elmer Fudd

I watched this (Well, 30 seconds of it) only because you wrote that.

[Bill Phil]

The night sky will be starless long before the heat death...

[Diche Bach]

Is final entropy the actual projected fate? I find that hard to believe.

My understanding is that the universe is overall expanding, so I would think that long before the available material in many galaxies have reached the point where there is too little (or too defuse) of fissile material to fuel stars the galaxies themselves will have been scattered far beyond the current boundaries of the observable universe. Interested to hear more.

Lee Smolin hypotheses that black holes are effectively the "wombs" for daughter universe, and if that is correct, and we can figure a way to make it through that transfer "intact" then exploring those daughter universes would seem like a good idea for a hundreds or thousands of trillions year old "species" (by that time, I reckon we will not be "people" any longer, but rather energy patterns "living" eternally in vast solar system spanning "computers." 

[Superfluous J]

33 minutes ago, Diche Bach said:

My understanding is that the universe is overall expanding, so I would think that long before the available material in many galaxies have reached the point where there is too little (or too defuse) of fissile material to fuel stars the galaxies themselves will have been scattered far beyond the current boundaries of the observable universe. Interested to hear more.

Local (galactic cluster scale) gravitation overcomes universal expansion. Granted, eventually the expansion will be so great as to overcome even local gravitation (unless I'm mistaken and expansion is not accelerating like I think it is. I'll admit I've not kept up on the findings/theories over the years) but for all I know, by then the heat death will either already have happened or be so close as to have effectively happened... as in, we'll be long dead, starved out of existence.

[Steel]

(t is the age of the universe)

The final stars will go out at t ~ 10¹⁴ (100 trillion years), but we wont have been able to see other stars in the sky due to red shift since t ~ 2 × 10¹² (so we've had 98 trillion years with an eternally black sky before the final stars actually stop burning). If we've worked out a way to survive in eternal darkness without dying of boredom then we're still fine at this point.

The next problem, assuming protons and bound neutrons decay, happens when t is about 10²⁰ times larger (i.e in one million trillion trillion years) when the atoms that make up our bodies start to decay. This is almost certainly not survivable. This period ends after a mere 10000 trillion trillion trillion years, when there are almost no more protons or neutrons.

At this point there are pretty much only black holes, leptons and photons left. The black holes stick around for roughly 10000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years before all of those evaporate.

At this point we might think that, having survive the ordeal so far, that the remaining humans aren't that far away from witnessing the heat death of the universe. Unfortunately, depending on what estimate you use, the heat death is somewhere beyond t ~ 10¹⁰⁰⁰ years (10000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years), or around 10⁹⁰⁰ times longer than the age of the universe when the last black hole disappears (thats one trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion times longer).

 

That is why I feel it's quite unlikely anything will survive to see it, it's just a ridiculously long time away (assuming it happens)

 

TL;DR: Basically, unless we can find a bubble to sit in that is exempt from the laws of physics, and then wait for a very long time then there's no possible way to get the the heat death of the universe.

[WestAir]

So what you're saying is that forever (I.E, till the end of the Universe) really does feel like forever?

[Diche Bach]

5 hours ago, Steel said:

(t is the age of the universe)

 . . . SNIP . . .

Interesting stuff. Where can I read up about this topic, I've never really encountered any reference to it in my minimal forays into the arcane world of astro-magicus-grandicus.

Honestly I'm a little sckeptikal that any projections of this nature are particularly valid, given that the greatest minds at the cutting edge of these sciences have to invoke deus ex machina like "dark matter" and "dark energy" to get their models to work with the actual observed behavior of the [apparent] universe. Maybe that is naive on my part, but that is my mindset at this stage; I'd rather be 'guilty' of being naive by virtue of skepticism than by virtue of blind acceptance.

Seems like we are sort of like an amoeba who somehow gained the ability to gaze far outside its petry dish and are using neural aparatus that is frankly far deficient for the task to try to comprehend the strange signals we are receiving in the laboratory surrounding the petry dish. I'm certainly no creationist, but that is where I sit with this sort of stuff. We have no loveing clue what is going on out there beyond the observable universe and we may never have any clue.

1 hour ago, WestAir said:

So what you're saying is that forever (I.E, till the end of the Universe) really does feel like forever?

Like that avatar and siggie

Edited September 10, 2016 by Diche Bach

[swjr-swis]

I feel like I've been suffering heat death all this week already (and yes, it is feeling like forever).

As for my thoughts on the stars: I think they're purdy.

[Der Anfang]

11 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

By definition, if the universe really reached maximum entropy then no life could function.

Define life.  (And yes, I am well aware there are debates over that.)

[cfds]

As long as there is any structure left, the heat death is not reached. So the better question is: "Given an every expanding universe, could humans postpone the heat death indefinitely?".

[Andem]

In the short run? Yeah. In the long run? No.

[Green Baron]

Define life.  (And yes, I am well aware there are debates over that.)

There are more than enough definitions of life out there :-)

 

6 hours ago, Steel said:

(t is the age of the universe)

The final stars will go out at t ~ 10¹⁴ (100 trillion years), but we wont have been able to see other stars in the sky due to red shift since t ~ 2 × 10¹² (so we've had 98 trillion years with an eternally black sky before the final stars actually stop burning). If we've worked out a way to survive in eternal darkness without dying of boredom then we're still fine at this point.

The next problem, assuming protons and bound neutrons decay, happens when t is about 10²⁰ times larger (i.e in one million trillion trillion years) when the atoms that make up our bodies start to decay. This is almost certainly not survivable. This period ends after a mere 10000 trillion trillion trillion years, when there are almost no more protons or neutrons.

At this point there are pretty much only black holes, leptons and photons left. The black holes stick around for roughly 10000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years before all of those evaporate.

At this point we might think that, having survive the ordeal so far, that the remaining humans aren't that far away from witnessing the heat death of the universe. Unfortunately, depending on what estimate you use, the heat death is somewhere beyond t ~ 10¹⁰⁰⁰ years (10000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years), or around 10⁹⁰⁰ times longer than the age of the universe when the last black hole disappears (thats one trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion times longer).

 

That is why I feel it's quite unlikely anything will survive to see it, it's just a ridiculously long time away (assuming it happens)

 

TL;DR: Basically, unless we can find a bubble to sit in that is exempt from the laws of physics, and then wait for a very long time then there's no possible way to get the the heat death of the universe.

In the meantime the universe keeps expanding at accelerated speed. So ... even in the "early" stages there'll be more space between each particle than todays observable universe is large. Doesn't sound that thrilling ... :-)

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by Green Baron

[swjr-swis]

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

o ... even in the "early" stages there'll be more space between each particle than todays observable universe is large. Doesn't sound that thrilling ... :-)

For some of us, the time will finally have arrived that we are very literally (and still just as unverifiably) the center of our own private universe...

[Diche Bach]

@HebaruSanI made it in the Elmer Fudd video up to the point where you tells us we might be in the Matrix. That was my limit for today, but fascinating stuff.

[PB666]

With the basic assumption that we survive, I suspect that in the attempt of humans to solve questions about where the universe comes from we accident create a new Universe and end the current one, oddly we answered the question but could not tell anyone. 

 

[lajoswinkler]

When heat death occurs, we can't exist anymore. It's the definition of heat death. No potential differential of any kind exists anymore and thus no work can occur. No work, no structures. (Not to mention the species Homo sapiens would be gone because it would turn into something else long before that).

There's a nice music video trying to tackle the problem of ever decreasing potential differential in space and sentient beings' struggle to survive.

 

[kerbiloid]

While the Universe is expanding, is the Planck length increasing?

Edited September 13, 2016 by kerbiloid

[KerikBalm]

On 9/10/2016 at 0:41 PM, Steel said:

The next problem, assuming protons and bound neutrons decay, happens when t is about 10²⁰ times larger (i.e in one million trillion trillion years) when the atoms that make up our bodies start to decay. This is almost certainly not survivable. This period ends after a mere 10000 trillion trillion trillion years, when there are almost no more protons or neutrons.

As far as I now, there is still no experimental evidence supporting the idea of proton decay, no?

anyway, once the red dwarves go out, there's not much left for us.

We could stockpile resources before they do, and have a tiny tiny population living for a very long time, but nothing resembling a thriving civilization.

Maybe some sort of "Eternal" hibernation with a minimal power reactor burning through multiple planet's worth of mass (at a rate much much lower than a red dwarf star would).

But that would just be prolonging the end. There'd be nobody to come along and "save" us, there'd be no waking up from the hibernation, except to wake up and have one last party before mass (not so mass if its a small population) suicide trillions of years after entering hibernation.

You want some deus ex machina moment where a portal to a young universe is opened and humanity passes through?

[Signo]

This is Asimov's "Last Question". He found a way around in the novel (no spoilers here).

 

[p1t1o]

27 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

As far as I now, there is still no experimental evidence supporting the idea of proton decay, no?

Well I mean, its pretty hard to come by...

I think its a "wait and see" kind of thing, every time I read about possible futures it is always stated thus: "And if protons decay...etc."

[monophonic]

54 minutes ago, Signo said:

This is Asimov's "Last Question". He found a way around in the novel (no spoilers here).

 

I did not know this story. I do now. It's awesome!