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[1.12.x] Landertrons (Automatic Landing Retro-Rockets) v1.3.0 (02021 Sep 06)


Kerbas_ad_astra

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Landertrons do decide when to cut out (essentially venting the remaining propellant all at once), but because KSP's physics run in discrete steps, it's not possible to exactly target the zero velocity point, especially if the engines have a high TWR.  (XanderTek had the landertrons throttle to compensate, but charfa removed that behavior as it felt cheaty, and I haven't restored it for the same reason.)  Of course, the 'fun' part is that the higher the TWR, the closer to a perfect suicide burn you get (and the less of a drop you have to deal with).  Pick your poison!

As for setting an altitude or velocity target, it's not a priority as it's been enough trouble getting these things to target zero/zero (which is still not perfect...).  For targeting a particular altitude or speed, you may be better off looking at more advanced automation systems, like Throttle-Controlled Avionics or Smart Parts.

Edited by Kerbas_ad_astra
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  • 1 month later...
  • 2 weeks later...

So, I installed the plugin to make the soft landing motors in HGR's SoyJuice work, and somehow I can't get it to behave the way I expect:

When descending, whether parachute is open or not, regardless of how far the pod is from the ground, arming the motors (using the rightclick menu, but staging seems to do the same) results in them firing immediately.

I was under the impression that upon staging them, the actual firing will not happen until they can suicide burn the capsule into zero on the ground, or some close approximation? If so, what could I be doing wrong?

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Are you sure you have both the latest versions of landertrons (v1.1.0, from here for KSP 1.3) and HGR (v1.5.2 for KSP 1.3, from here -- bear in mind that I've integrated all parts and patches into an HGR folder, so you shouldn't have HGR_Redux or HGRCommunityFixes folders)?  I just made a quick test launch (up to 2000 m, deploy parachutes, arm landertron), and the motors fired at ~20 meters altitude (still not quite where I want it to be, but pretty low).

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4 minutes ago, Kerbas_ad_astra said:

Are you sure you have both the latest versions of landertrons (v1.1.0, from here for KSP 1.3) and HGR (v1.5.2 for KSP 1.3, from here -- bear in mind that I've integrated all parts and patches into an HGR folder, so you shouldn't have HGR_Redux or HGRCommunityFixes folders)?

Double checking. .version file in GameData/Landertron insists it's 1.1.0, .version in GameData/HGR says it's 1.5.2, and yes, I'm running KSP 1.3. I never had any prior installations of HGR on this installation of KSP and I never used Landertron before. Mind you, it works on the pad -- If I mount the pod on a clamp, arm it, and stage the clamp, it activates properly. But if I stage it during an actual orbital landing, it fires immediately, whether I already have the parachute open or not. I tried doing it while a hundred meters away from the ground and somehow it still fired immediately and burned out well before the pod landed.

Let me try some more tests with numbers...

P.S. I don't use RSS or planet mods or anything that affects the entire physics except KJR, almost all of the rest are UI/control/spawn mods and parts.

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Aha, there we go, replicated. I was worried my memory is playing tricks on me and I did something wrong, but nope, the problem exists.

Numerous tests hyperediting and dropping a pod from 2-10km resulted in landertrons working as designed. So did simple orbit tests in sandbox mode by hyperediting the assembled vehicle and doing the landing by the numbers.

However, once I tried the test in career mode, this happened:

I return a Soyjuice from a moon flyby, dropping to a periapsis of 40km and reentering after separating the modules. This results in bouncing back and a second reentry.

Once the pod slows down to a speed safe enough to open the parachute, I stage the chute, the heatshield and the landertrons all at once while still flying nearly horizontally. The landertrons immediately fire long before I'm at the ground.

P.S. So I did it again: I reloaded the save made before landing and this time, manually decoupled the heatshield, then deployed the chute, then waited until I was strictly vertical and the chute was fully open, and only then armed the landertrons. Landertrons fired immediately.

Edited by Mihara
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I'm still not getting that behavior -- I made a new career save (plus some science and funds to get the necessary parts), launched a Soyjuice descent pod (the green one) by the Mun on a free-return trajectory, executed a skip-reentry with an initial periapsis of 40 km, separated the heat shield, deployed parachutes, armed the landertron at about 800 m (when the parachute had fully opened, terminal velocity ~3 m/s -- using the HGR LOM-7), and the engines fired at ~20 meters.

There's nothing in Landertron code that depends on game mode, so this is very strange to me.  Could you get me that save file and your list of mods?

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16 hours ago, Kerbas_ad_astra said:

There's nothing in Landertron code that depends on game mode, so this is very strange to me.  Could you get me that save file and your list of mods?

That would be difficult, and I'd rather set up a proper test environment with only HGR, Landertron and preferably nothing else, which will take time I don't have at the moment. But I was able to replicate the behaviour with a hyperedited pod reliably in a sandbox save. Mind you, it's a bit voodoo, but it suggests the likely mod interaction that triggers the issue.

Test article: Descent pod, parachute, nothing else. Pod and parachute in stage 0.

  1. Launch.
  2. Use hyperedit ship lander to send it to 7000m and drop the pod.
  3. Max out physical warp.
  4. Wait until you're no more than 2000m up, but still above the full parachute deployment altitude.
  5. Stage.

What happens: The parachute opens fully, and at this point, SafeChutes plugin drops physical warp. That's the moment landertrons fire, anywhere between 200 and 700m off the ground.

What triggers the early firing is apparently coming out of physical warp while above a certain speed, and since with SafeChutes you can usually speed up parachute landings with no ill effects, I've been using physical warp extensively while landing.

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I'm not seeing that behavior in my test setup (HGR, Landertron, SafeChutes -- not using HyperEdit but boosting the pod up to 9800 m on an SRB, velocity ~210 m/s at ~2500 m altitude when I staged, ~170 m/s at opening) or in my heavily modded main setup, but I can believe that dropping out of high physical warp at high speed (or maybe it's more related to being in high warp, at high speed, at low altitudes) can trip Landertrons under the right circumstances (which seems to require more mod interactions?).  The SoftLanding calculation is based in part on what the predicted altitude of the capsule will be in two frames, so being in high physical warp will push that prediction lower.

It would help me to see even a screenshot of your GameData folder or a list of folders -- I use a lot of mods myself, so I can tell you what you've got that I don't, and help narrow down your search.

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9 hours ago, Kerbas_ad_astra said:

It would help me to see even a screenshot of your GameData folder or a list of folders -- I use a lot of mods myself, so I can tell you what you've got that I don't, and help narrow down your search.

Will an ls -l output do instead? :)

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drwxrwxr-x  3 mihara mihara     4096 Jun 21 10:26 000_AT_Utils
drwxrwxr-x  3 mihara mihara     4096 Jun  8 20:02 000_FilterExtensions
drwxrwxr-x  3 mihara mihara     4096 Jun  8 20:02 000_FilterExtensions Configs
drwxrwxr-x  5 mihara mihara     4096 Jun  2 19:52 000_USITools
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drwxrwxr-x  2 mihara mihara     4096 Jun  8 20:16 ReCoupler
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drwxrwxr-x  3 mihara mihara     4096 Jun  2 19:52 RetractableLiftingSurface
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drwxrwxr-x  3 mihara mihara     4096 May 28 01:24 SafeChute
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drwxrwxr-x  3 mihara mihara     4096 Jun  2 19:52 [x] Science!
drwxrwxr-x  4 mihara mihara     4096 May 27 22:39 XyphosAerospace
drwxrwxr-x  3 mihara mihara     4096 Jun  2 19:51 ZeroMiniAVC

_Mihara contains my own tiny collection of MM patches. Most of this of it is installed by CKAN. The few things that aren't are explicitly billed to be compatible with 1.3 as far as their plugins go. I suppose I could make a debug build of the landertrons plugin and try to see if anything interesting comes up in the log...

For the record, MechJeb is used on all vessels without exception, kOS is not currently used on any vessels, and I am not actually using the Throttle Controlled Avionics and considering getting rid of it, since MechJeb's differential throttle does the job well enough for horizontal landings in vacuum.

For another record, landertron computer has so far worked perfectly with this 5m scale SSTO reusable booster:

AQvPMpx.png

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Thanks! Looking at that list, none of them look like they directly interfere with the functioning of Landertrons, but RealChutes jumped out at me as having some impact on landing.  Adding that to my test install (I don't use it normally) caused the issue to occur.

When I used my debug build, the predicted stopping distance is calculated to be some 500 meters when the parachute begins to fully deploy (at an altitude of 700 meters).  During that series of tests, the stopping distance stayed below the distance to the ground (so the landertrons never fired prematurely) as the parachute opened, but only just, and the debug build is logging data at every frame, which slows the game; I suspect that when the game is running at full speed and high physical warp, the predicted stopping distance can dip into the ground and trigger the landing engines' ignition.

700 meters is pretty low, especially as terminal velocity is over 100 m/s; since the HGR RealChutes patch is living in 'my' mod, I can increase that to 1000 as it is for stock chutes in the next release.  Additionally, I'm working on making Landertrons a little more intelligent and less conservative when landing on planets with atmospheres (the calculations presently assume that the spacecraft is descending under gravity without any drag), but all of my efforts so far have been underestimating the stopping distance for payloads landing without parachutes.

In the meantime, you could be less of a daredevil when landing SoyJuice capsules. :wink:

 

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Hi,

nice to see the landertrons back in action!

Would it be possible to rename the GUI actions from "Arm" to "Arm Landertron" and from "Disarm" to "Disarm Landertron"?

That would allow the integration of the landertron module into advanced probe cores per module manager patch, if landertron is installed! For spin stabilized probes, the probe core is also easier to click than a radially attached box, especially when under stress due to impending lithobreaking.

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5 minutes ago, Kerbas_ad_astra said:

In the meantime, you could be less of a daredevil when landing SoyJuice capsules. :wink:

Somehow, I think that's not it, though. It's just that using warp like that makes the issue appear always. It also manifests when I'm being entirely calm about landing if the physical warp has been used at any point during reentry. The annoying part is that it's intermittent.

Considering RealChutes, I tried tuning the parachutes to open at 1000m, and switching them to kevlar for good measure, and then doing the above replication steps. Replicating the issue became much more difficult, but it's still possible.

Idea: Check if physical warp is on when making the decision to fire. If it is, turn it off and check again on the next physics frame: If landertrons are seriously about to fire, maybe you shouldn't be physical warping in the first place.

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  • 4 weeks later...

For some reason these aren't working for me. I put three XT-L2s radially around the base of a Mk1-2 command pod, set to short-landing, hyper edit up to 2000m and drop, arm the landertrons via staging (also tried via action group). But they don't fire and I crash into the launchpad.

Edited by desepticon
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  • 2 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/7/2017 at 6:50 AM, SilverlightPony said:

Seconding the CKAN request.

Me three.

Somethign different: would it be possible to make the landing altitude tweakable? I equipped my vessel with few chutes and strong retro-rockets. It comes to a stop 20 meters up, then plunges to a fiery death. With enough chutes for a soft landing, I no longer need the rockets.

Edited by Laie
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