seanth

Long Distance Naval Challenge/Contest

64 posts in this topic

On 26.10.2016 at 6:17 AM, seanth said:

Entry rules:

  1. Build a boat using stock parts.
  2. Power your boat using stock engines (see Scoring Levels below).

May I use stock SAS powered paddleboat or propeller engines? They are very cool after all!

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2 hours ago, TheDestroyer111 said:

May I use stock SAS powered paddleboat or propeller engines? They are very cool after all!

Sure. That would be "level 4" entry. In fact, I encourage you to give it a shot. I think the SAS powered engines are pretty cool

 

Edited by seanth

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I'm in the middle of testing my next entry, and I thought it might be interesting to some to see what I do in the final stages of testing. The testing is particularly important for this craft because I want it to be able to travel 1,884,956m. This will give the craft a max range of 1/2 way around Kerbin, or 1/4 of the way if if need to return to its start point (which it does).

Let's assume you have a craft you are relatively pleased with.

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You've worked hard to minimize drag, and you've found the sweet spot in terms of speed vs fuel usage. Just how far can your craft go?

I've made a spreadsheet for myself that takes the latitude, longitude, speed, current amount of fuel, and maximum amount of fuel.

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It plugs the lat and long into a Great Circle equation to give me the distance between points (Delta distance) and then sums the deltas to give me total distance. That way I can snake a boat around corners and still keep an accurate record of distance traveled as long as I get the lat/long at each course change.

The fuel present and total fuel possible gives the the % fuel used. Together, the "Total distance" and "% fuel used" lets me get a pretty good sense of how far a vessel might be able to travel. By the time I start testing things to get a sense for a ship's range, I have usually figured out the optimal angles for my hydroplanes that gives me a good balance between speed and fuel usage/sec. Normally, for large vessels, I'll pick a course, turn on SAS to hold the ship to it, and set a time for 10-15min. When the timer goes off I'll record the lat, long, speed, and remaining fuel, and set the timer again. The good thing about this is you can do pretty much anything else until the timer goes off: read, study, watch TV, whatever.

I have found that after five data points, I have a large enough data set to pretty accurately guess how far the craft will go. Take for example:

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Every ship will have a different equation that fits the data, but they are probably going to end up being a polynomial. In this specific case, the equation to figure out how far the vessel will go is:

Distance = -96391.91 + 15571.822*100 + 76.660171*(100-34.9646)^2

or 1,785,032.40 m

My target distance for this craft is 1,884,956m (1/2 the circumference of Kerbin). The equation says I'll be 99,923.6m short. This is close enough that I decided I needed more data just to make sure. As with most things, the more data you get, the better your estimates become. No amount of wishful thinking saves me, though:

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The refinement to the equation doesn't help: predicted distance of 1,780,951.84m. About 104,000 m too short.

Just sticking more fuel on won't necessarily solve the problem, though. It might, but it will depend on where the fuel is placed, how it changes the distribution of weight and lift, and how much additional thrust is needed to move that added mass and get it into a stable hydroplane, etc.

Regardless, back to refining the design....

Edited by seanth

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Update: Video of the 'Western Nosebleed' added.

I have a new entry to put up: 'Quarterway and the Pip'

This design was slightly different in that I had two design goals:

  1. Carry a special craft in the cargo hold (the 'Pip')
  2. Be able to travel 1,884,955.5m (half way around Kerbin)

The estimated range of 'Quarterway and the Pip' is 2,024,567m, so good job me. An account of the shakedown cruise will happen soon.

Props to anyone that catches the movie reference in the name.

Edited by seanth

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Ship Name: Quarterway and the Pip (props to the first person to catch the reference)
Max fuel: 32,115L (includes 50L on daughter craft The Pip)
Total crew: 11 (plus two spaces on daughter craft The Pip)
Start location: KSC (-0.0435, -74.39)
Number of flags placed: 1
Flag 1: "Emoji Deep" (-28.9055, -83.1116, ~1387 under the water)
Mission time: 4 hrs 24 min 08 sec (15,848 sec)
Total distance: 6,668,405m meters on Earth/10.64 = 626,730 m on Kerbin
Level 3 Score: (626,730 m / 15,848s)*(1 flag/11 crew members) = 3.6

Too bad there's no score multiplier for flags placed under water :(

A few notes: Unlike the previous craft I've made for this challenge, I had a few very specific design goals:

  •  More cargo space to hold daughter craft
  •  The main ship should be able to travel at least 1,884,956m. Put another way, the boat needs to be able to go 1/2 around Kerbin (one way) or a quarter way around (going there and back). Thus the name Quarterway
  •  Transport a stock submarine. 
  •  Place a flag under the water. I wasn't sure this was possible initially. 

With other designs, I have done "off screen" shakedown tests to see what the range of the crafts were. With this design, I decided to gather the performance data (speed, lat/long (to calculate distance traveled), and fuel used) while heading out to place a flag. There was one problem with the mission: somehow the flag placed at the bottom got stuck on the submarine. It was't until the Quarterway was close to the KSC that the Kraken showed itself. Apparently moving flags is Not A Good Thing.

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Mission Report:

Valentina's report to the Maritime Exploitation Institute(MEI) about the trip to Seanth's Landing was very well received, and the inclusion of the Oceanbug opened up new opportunities. Soon the word came down: the next craft design would ultimately need to be able to reach the bay to the west of Hanbert's Cape. It also needed to carry a working submarine. The MEI proposed a test of all systems in the deepest known part of Kerbin. 

 

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Go big or go home.

Before being recruited by the KSC, Orsen's original field of study had been carbon cycling in the deep ocean, so he was tapped to assist Bob in the submarine design. Ditrid, Val, and Bill reviewed previous ship designs and came up with what they thought would be a ship that could fulfill the mission parameters. 

"We're not completely sure whether it has the range it needs," admitted Ditrid when Quarterway was unveiled and the, submarine The Pip, was being stowed in the cargo area. "We're getting pretty good at estimating range of the hydrofoil designs, but we won't know without a shakedown cruise."

To trip out into the open ocean was uneventful. As Bob and Orsen boarded The Pip and began the long descent to the bottom, tensions ran high, however.

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After almost 30 minutes descending over a kilometer to the bottom. Orsen prepared to do something many considered impossible: he braved the crushing pressures, exited the Pip, and placed a flag proudly naming the spot "Emoji Deep".

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Despite the fears of losing his grip and having a rapid, unplanned ascent to the surface, Orsen reboarded the craft and their ascent began.

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They redocked with the Quarterway without incident, but just as they started back to the KSC, Chadwin gasped, pointing at the sky.

Spoiler

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"The sky has a crack! The Kraken has awoken!"

Most of the crew onboard knew that Chadwin was a devotee of the ancient belief in the maleficent Kraken, but his reaction startled everyone. Recording the phenomena, the crew went about their tasks while Chadwin tightly closed his eyes.

With over 200km left to go before they returned to the KSC, Valentina finally admitted to herself that something was wrong with the Quarterway. The craft was performing well, but the entire craft was shaking. It had started after the Pip had docked and had gotten progressively worse over time. After conferring with Bill, Bob, and Detrid, Val brought the craft to a stop. With the engines off, the unnatural shaking of the craft was more noticeable.

"Hey, Orsen, I need you to EVA and see if there is something wrong with The Pip or the cargo bay. We've got a wicked shimmy up here that started when you two docked and it's just getting worse."

Chadwin mutted a prayer he hadn't thought of since childhood and rocked back and forth in his chair.

"Negative, Val. My hatch is obstructed by something."

"Ok, here's what we're going to do: Bob, undock The Pip. Let's see if that stops the shaking. If not, ease The Pip out. Bob, you'll EVA and see if you can figure out what is going on."

Undocking The Pip didn't stop the shudders running through the Quarterway, however. And as Bob left The Pip, the crew observing through the windows cried out in horror! For a moment, Bob had phased through the "catcher's plate" on The Pip. Maybe the stories of the Kraken were true after all.

Spoiler

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Overcoming his terror, Bob entered the cargo bay and Orsen carefully maneuvered The Pip up the ramp. 

"Huh. Um, I think I see the problem. The flag we placed has somehow phased through the hull of The Pip."

Spoiler

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After a moment of silence, Val asked the only thing she could think of. "Can you free it?"

"I've been trying, but when I get close to the flag, I don't feel so good."

Spoiler

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"Ok. forget it, get back in here and we'll try and get back."

Val relinquished the controls to Bob as he re-boarded the craft through the bridge hatch, and the again set out for home.

-------------
"We're not going to make it," Bob confided to Val.

The ship was about 120km from the KSC, but was vibrating with such violence that it was only a matter of time before it broke to pieces. It was clear that the further they got from Emoji Deep, the greater the disturbance.

"Chadwin, if you have any idea, now is the time to do them."

"The Kraken wants the flag. We placed it, and it wants it back."

"That's fine, but we can't go back. I don't know if the ship would stop shuttering as we got closer to Emoji Deep, but I don't know if we have the fuel to go back there and then return to KSC. Even if you could go back to Emoji Deep, The Pip doesn't have the ballast to make another dive. We dumped some of the ore to ascend."

Chadwin shut his eyes and seemed to come to a decision. "Stop the boat. I'll go into the cargo bay. Alone."

Bob reduced the throttle and brought the Quarterway to a halt, though it's vibrations made conspicuous splashing noises. Cadwin disappeared in the hold, and the rest of the crew gripped the seats rests. The violence of the craft's movements briefly increased, there was a sound, like a massive cork being released from a bottle, and the craft stopped moving.

The crew looked at one another, everyone still holding their breath, waiting for the worst. Cadwin reentered the cabin area, looking confused. 

"What was I doing in the cargo bay?"

Apparently, whatever had happened, Chadwin had no memory of it. The last thing he remembered was The Pip docking with the Quarterway after returning from its maiden dive. 

From that point, the Quarterway performed without problem, returning to the KSC smoothly. With the Bob and Bill quietly accumulated the data they had gathered to determine the range of the ship and quietly exited along with the rest of the confused and disturbed crew.
 

----------------------

Video of the trip to be uploaded soon.

Edited by seanth
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Next entry in progress, but I'm trying to overcome a perma-locked port. 

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Ship Name: Quarterway and the Pip (revised to allow the Oceanbug to dock in the cargo hold)
Max fuel: 32355, but it carried only 32,195L. The extra space were tanks on the two daughter craft.
Total crew: 11 (plus two spaces on daughter craft: The Pip and Oceanbug)
Start location: KSC (-0.0435, -74.39)
Number of flags placed: 5

  • Flag 1: Hanbert Cape (-24.635768, -141.749706)
  • Flag 2: Maybe Island (-24.573792, -144.256099)
  • Flag 3: Olmost Point (-21.270606, -153.289103)
  • Flag 4: Olmost Beach (-17.335498, -156.71257)
  • Flag 5: Quarterbay (-14.225317, -158.304707. ~918m under the water)

Mission time: 1 day 4hrs 28min 52 sec (37,732s)
Total distance: 1,768,563.22m on Kerbin
Level 3 Score: (1,768,563.22m / 37,732s)*(5 flag/11 crew members) = 21.31

A few notes:
I didn't think I was going to make it back on this trip. I hadn't fully tested the craft, and at the last minute I decided to include a second daughter ship in the hold. This meant the craft's weight was distributed differently than when it was just the Pip. It also had more mass, which meant more fuel was needed to get it up to cruising speed. About 1/2 through the trip The Oceanbug pera-docked with the Quarterway. It took quite a while of messing around to manage to get it to undock again.

In the end, I managed to get back to the KSC with 200L of fuel to spare. Placing flags under the water might be my new favorite challenge in KSP. 

•The important thing is this craft has proven it can go 1/2 way around Kerbin (one-way trip) without refueling. Woooo!•

I'll write up the trip next week, but here are the highpoints. Map points in kml, mechjeb, and waypoint manager files updated. Quarterway and Pip (and Oceanbug) craft file online for people to grab (see OP):

Map of places visited:

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Hanbert Cape:

Spoiler

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Maybe Island:

Spoiler

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Olmost Point:

Spoiler

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Olmost Beach:

Spoiler

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Quarterbay (another flag placed under water):

Spoiler

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Record of distance vs fuel used. Note the drop in performance as the Quarterway is making stops to place flags (points in open circles)

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Been a while, and am finalizing a design that should be able to reach the strait going leading into the Western Ocean.

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I'm aiming for at least a range of 2,828,571m. That will put me at ~75% of the circumnavigation distance. I planned on naming each of those red pins and another submarine trip to place a flag and name the strait. Any other ideas for mission objectives?

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Here is the kind of ship I would design for the contest, no foil, just wing to help lifting the boat. It's stock parts, but the nose cones have been tweakscaled to 1.25m as I did not find 1.25m nosecone.

Is it considered OK for the contest?

800787screenshot2.png

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8 hours ago, gilflo said:

Here is the kind of ship I would design for the contest, no foil, just wing to help lifting the boat. It's stock parts, but the nose cones have been tweakscaled to 1.25m as I did not find 1.25m nosecone.

Is it considered OK for the contest?

Tweakscale isn't changing the physics of the parts, right? I would say that's fine, though I'm pretty sure there are stock 1.25m nose As long as that craft stays a boat and doesn't become a plane, I think you are good to go. 

Do you have any predictions on how far you can get?

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Posted (edited)

On 08/04/2017 at 6:49 PM, seanth said:

Tweakscale isn't changing the physics of the parts, right? I would say that's fine, though I'm pretty sure there are stock 1.25m nose As long as that craft stays a boat and doesn't become a plane, I think you are good to go. 

Do you have any predictions on how far you can get?

Well at maximum speed  estimated range is at least 1200kms, but i am not sure i will keep this big wings each side of the hulls, because at low weights, with less than 50% fuel it can take off.

Not enough speed and there's oscillations on pitch axis that can be avoided with pitch trim, but to much pitch trim and it takes off....So I must study the best design and make a compromise between full weight and low weights when fuel is burnt

Max speed at full weight is 70m/s with a 3H40mn range, that 's around 925 kms.  I can also choose to keep this speed all the way long, reducing throttle when weight decreases, thus increasing range at least 50%. On my Kerbin "Gliding Cheetah", at low weight I was at 1/3 throttle, greater speed and thus very good range with the last 20% fuel...

Edited by gilflo

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Posted (edited)

By the way, is it forbidden to add some small gears just to land on the beach to plant a flag and then go back to sea ?

And about the scoring: it's a matter of average speed and not a matter of range: suppose i got a high speed boat , average speed 100m/s, : I plant  1 flag with 1 crew and come back, whatever is the distance, 10, 100 or 200 kms if i come back, i score 100!

With my boat, suppose i go to one of the island in front of Kerbin base, to get the best score,  I just have to dump 80% to 90% of my fuel, to get maximum possible speed to go there with one crew, plant a flag, and come back.

There's no matter of engine and boat efficiency.......

Calculation is (m/s)*(Flag/crew) . Maybe be it could be interesting to add a matter of range or maximum distance done.....

Edited by gilflo

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To take in account the total time or the total distance of the mission in the scoring, which is take in account the boat efficiency or the total time of the mission, i suggest to multiply the score by the total time of the mission in hour. (divide total time of the mission in second by 3600). Here in the first Seanth exemple, suppose we go twice farther at the same average speed, with the actual scoring there's no change because the distance is multiply by 2 and the mission time also.

Ship Name: The Skutaliepooper
Start location: KSC (-0.0435, -74.39)
Named location: Lobrat Songnal Island (-4.07611, -72.185278)
Mission time: 59min 27 sec (3567sec)
Distance: 99,213m
Total crew: 10
Number flags placed: 1
Level 1 Score: (99,213m / 3567s)*(1 flag / 10 crew) = 2.78

But if you take my rules it becomes: Same length score 2.78*3567/3600= 2.75         

Twice the length, same average speed, time and distance are doubled, score is 2.78*2*3567/3600= 5.5

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Is Pilot Assistant which a kind of autopilot like Mechjeb allowed?

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18 hours ago, gilflo said:

Is Pilot Assistant which a kind of autopilot like Mechjeb allowed?

Sorry I didn't reply sooner: I've been sick.

I think Pilot Assistant is fine. It just acts as an autopilot and doesn't change game physics, right? I'd say go ahead and use it.

On 4/26/2017 at 1:24 PM, gilflo said:

By the way, is it forbidden to add some small gears just to land on the beach to plant a flag and then go back to sea ?

And about the scoring: it's a matter of average speed and not a matter of range: suppose i got a high speed boat , average speed 100m/s, : I plant  1 flag with 1 crew and come back, whatever is the distance, 10, 100 or 200 kms if i come back, i score 100!

With my boat, suppose i go to one of the island in front of Kerbin base, to get the best score,  I just have to dump 80% to 90% of my fuel, to get maximum possible speed to go there with one crew, plant a flag, and come back.

There's no matter of engine and boat efficiency.......

Calculation is (m/s)*(Flag/crew) . Maybe be it could be interesting to add a matter of range or maximum distance done.....

Landing on the beach and gong back to sea: that's completely OK. If you check out some of my latter entries, I have things that land and go back out to sea.

I agree that there are probably better ways to score. I'll look closer at your suggestions and see how they play out

 

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I just seen this.. Im in.. Time for that inverted water bus I made a few times..

Placeholder until i get home

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Posted (edited)

After a lot of experiments, with wings, here is the GlidingDolfin Catamaran, a 66T winged Catamaran running on 2 J-33 Weasley Turbofan for 2 pilots and 10 passengers. 4 gears to land on beaches.

Experiments at different fuel settings show a 3000 to 3200 kms range at an average speed of 100m/s, maximum speed being at half weight 33T, 140m/s. At very low weights we must reduce throttle and speed to stay on water. Range can be increased by reducing throttle and speed in every weight configuration, but i did not really study the maxi range throttle RPM and speed.

Optimisation is done with steady COG with balanced fuel consumption and center of lift on COG. There's a pitch down torque at max weight, neutral torque at mid weight and pitch up torque at low weight. Torque effect during navigation is neutralize by SAS and Autopilot, which allow time warping up to 3.  Manual piloting at high speed, especially at low weight, requires to much concentration to avoid flipping.

688021screenshot68.png

Edited by gilflo

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For the distance calculation between to points, once Kerbal map is installed on google map, is it ok to use the Google map ruler and divide the distance found by 10.64?

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47 minutes ago, gilflo said:

For the distance calculation between to points, once Kerbal map is installed on google map, is it ok to use the Google map ruler and divide the distance found by 10.64?

That's correct. I usually use the path tool in Google Earth, but that's correct: you take the distance that you get from Google Earth and divide by 10.64 to get the distance on Kerbin.

The GlidingDolfin Catamaran is a nice looking craft. It's very different from the designs I was working on, so I'm looking forward to seeing your run. ~3000kms is very impressive! As long as it stays on the water, it's a boat, so you're good. I had a ship design at one point that would try and be a plane when the fuel got low, so I relied to using MechJeb and setting the acceleration and maxQ so things were more or less stable.

I never tried doing a trip with any timewarp. It'd be interesting to see whether you get the same range with and without timewarp. Any chance of you putting the craft file up for people after you are done with your trip?

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By timewarping i generally loss some speed - between 1 to 5m/s , but sometimes you gain, there's no rule...Of course i will leave the craft file for everybody once i will have done my trip. I am planing a path with 12  stop as there is 12 crews on board, so that the total distance would be around 3000kms, to keep a small margin.

Can you confirm that the calculation must be as follow when I navigate between 2 points: Here it is the total distance of the 2 red lines on the sea and not the direct distance from point to point

141799Capturedcran20170502191212.png

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1 hour ago, gilflo said:

By timewarping i generally loss some speed - between 1 to 5m/s , but sometimes you gain, there's no rule...Of course i will leave the craft file for everybody once i will have done my trip. I am planing a path with 12  stop as there is 12 crews on board, so that the total distance would be around 3000kms, to keep a small margin.

Can you confirm that the calculation must be as follow when I navigate between 2 points: Here it is the total distance of the 2 red lines on the sea and not the direct distance from point to point

 

Calculation: you are correct that you should use the total distance from point to point and not a straight line from start to finish. In your example, it would be the distance from Mouth Entrance to the point of the peninsula, down to Between cap 2

But remember you need to return back to your starting point; no one-way trips.

I'm envious of your range. I have a ship that can crack 3000km if it doesn't have landing gear on it, but without the wheels that design path won't ever be able to circumnavigate. I'm still noodling with it, trying to get to the strait that leads into the ocean with Nye Island in it. I want to drop a sub and put a flag in the strait.

If you want them, files for Google Earth, Waypoint Manager, etc are up at GitHub so you can see previously named places and use waypoints previously made to help in your journeys.

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Posted (edited)

Here is the Google map of the trip i planned for my GlidingDolphin catamaran. There's 12 Points to visit and flag for the 2 Crew and 10 passengers on board.

Waypoints have been added to allow sea navigation and range calculation between the 12 points and according to the calculation tools, global distance should be 2999 kms. There's of course a small error margin as i am not sure to pass over the waypoint exactly, they are here to avoid collision with land. I opened the waypoint manager to enter all those points and waypoints and the Scansat map to look they were correctly chosen. I will use Waypoint manager associated to Scansat Map and Zoom map to navigate.

650314Glidingdolphinplannedtrip.png

I will send a photo of each google earth leg for the reporting when i start the navigation

Can you confirm how is calculated the time between each leg?  It's the time for each leg between each departure and the next flag planted ? 

Then I can stop for the night. Rest time is not a factor as long as the boat is not moving?

Edited by gilflo

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10 minutes ago, gilflo said:

Here is the Google map of the trip i planned for my GlidingDolphin catamaran. There's 12 Points to visit and flag for the 2 Crew and 10 passengers on board.

Waypoints have been added to allow sea navigation and range calculation between the 12 points and according to the calculation tools, global distance should be 2999 kms. There's of course a small error margin as i am not sure to pass over the waypoint exactly, they are here to avoid collision with land. I opened the waypoint manager to enter all those points and waypoints and the Scansat map to look they were correctly chosen. I will use Waypoint manager associated to Scansat Map and Zoom map to navigate.

650314Glidingdolphinplannedtrip.png

I will send a photo of each google earth leg for the reporting when i start the navigation

Can you confirm how is calculated the time between each leg?  It's the time for each leg between each departure and the next flag planted ? 

Then I can stop for the night. Rest time is not a factor as long as the boat is not moving?

The way it's been done so far is using the total mission clock time, so non-moving times _do_ count. To use a real-life example, when historians talk about the European voyages of discovery and their duration, they don't subtract the times spent anchored at various stops.

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OK, so it's not a problem as far as i know it and i am ready to make it during day and night. I just have to add some strong lighting to my catamaran

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I realised I have 8 passengers and 2 crews so that's only 10 points to flag but i keep the same trip to get as close as possible to 3000kms. I suppose i can plant 2 more flags but the result will count for 10 only.

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