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See Through Parts from IVA (Bug/Glitch?)


Micro753

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Does anyone know why there is an area around pods/cockpits where you can see through parts? I've been searching on the forums and google for any mention of this, but I haven't seen any. Is this a limitation, or an oversight/bug, and does anyone know why this happens? You can see this in the Osprey stock vessel very easily.

Spoiler

KQ9GgNb.jpg

This has always been something that has bothered me before, but more so now because I am starting to do more missions from IVA.

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This is due to the meshes between the IVA and external parts not matching up exactly.

Nothing that end-users can do about it as far as I'm aware, requires reworking of the models to make things line up better between the IVA and external models.

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1 hour ago, Micro753 said:

So, would re-positioning them fix it? Can Module Manager re-position the meshes, or is that hard coded?

In some cases, if it was merely mis-positioned to begin with, yes.

Most cases though, it is actual problems with the model meshes themselves, needing a few vertices moved to line up better.


So, for most purposes, it is hard-coded and cannot be fixed by users.

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Theres 2 bugs of this kind ive seen when driving trains .

When you have two cockpits or couple and uncouple the IVA cockpit axis stays glued to that specific location so when anything flexes..you end up seeing parts float over the cockpit..its a bug persisting from 0.25 till now

 

The second i think your talking about is like theres a sphere of invisibility around the cockpit thatll let you see through wings, hoods, wheels and the like

Im.not sure what mod did this or none at all but reinstalling KSP fixed it (and full deleting of the directory manually)

Edited by Overland
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2 hours ago, Overland said:

Im.not sure what mod did this or none at all but reinstalling KSP fixed it (and full deleting of the directory manually)

This happens in the stock game as well. It has for as long as I can remember. I've always noticed it, but never bothered with looking into the cause/for a fix because I've never used IVA much before, so it was never a priority for me.

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6 hours ago, Shadowmage said:

Most cases though, it is actual problems with the model meshes themselves, needing a few vertices moved to line up better.

I am more than willing to try to fix this myself, but I have no experience with modding aside from Module Manager patches. This will give me a reason to learn something useful.

So, the only file I see for this is the .mu file. Is that what I will need to edit, and what type of program would I need? Does that file also contain the collision/hitbox data? Any advice for getting started?

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2 hours ago, Micro753 said:

This happens in the stock game as well. It has for as long as I can remember. I've always noticed it, but never bothered with looking into the cause/for a fix because I've never used IVA much before, so it was never a priority for me.

I drive in pure IVA, I fly in mostly IVA :)

Same its such a neglected feature really from the dev point of view..sam hall made some great stuff back in the day

Thankfully the KN2 Cockpit suffers little from it except when doubleheading locos or running control trailers on passenger sets

Bleed through has gotten worse with updates sadly

Im more inclined to blame node differences than collision boxes and vertex differences..alot of models never changed  but node behavour did

The first screenshot looks more like the attachment nodes acting as if its too deep into the tank and offset a few clicks up. 

Alot different from the days when shunting brought on the IVA detachment bug yet nothing would bleed through and you could see the back of the fuel tanks on long hood or bulldog locos

In 0.90 they brought on that less tollerate node thing where old parts wouldnt connect without direction debug and its known some parts attach offset when they shouldnt

We shouldnt need to fix  what wasnt broken

The terrain shows distance cracks now...we see through parts when we shouldnt.. Its my personal conclusion of course but I think its deeper than some bad scaling and.more engine side overall errors

Edited by Overland
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5 hours ago, Micro753 said:

I am more than willing to try to fix this myself, but I have no experience with modding aside from Module Manager patches. This will give me a reason to learn something useful.

So, the only file I see for this is the .mu file. Is that what I will need to edit, and what type of program would I need? Does that file also contain the collision/hitbox data? Any advice for getting started?

You're in for a long haul, because .mu is a file-container that contains about everything that Unity contributes to a part. Meshes, materials, shaders, emitters, raycasts, transforms, scripts, dependency tree, lots of stuff. And there is NO decompiler.

There is .mu importer for Blender, using which you can import the meshes, together with their UV maps (textures themselves are in separate files, thank Kraken.) But Blender can't export .mu, nor has it any idea about the Unity-specific stuff. It creates meshes and UV-maps, period. The rest is Unity.

So you re-export the meshes to a format Unity can load, and then need to rebuild in Unity everything that was added through Unity, from scratch, guessing what it was.

Best if the mod author releases sources, including Unity project files. This is rarely the case. In most cases, you need to rebuild it all on your own. In case of trivial parts, like Structural, it's really easy, three minutes of simple, mechanical work. In cases of more complex objects, like wheels with suspension, this gets waaaay hard though. Cockpits are on the 'rather hard' side of the spectrum.

 


This particular problem is the related to Z-plane clipping distance: objects "too close to the camera" vanish, so the camera must be placed far enough. In case of IVA you have two of these composed: Z-plane clipping the outside view, and Z-plane of IVA model (which is an entirely different entity yet...). In this particular case it's the Z-plane of the outside view. You can't really move the Z-plane, so you either need to rebuild or reposition the IVA so that it obscures the seam.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Micro753 said:

I am more than willing to try to fix this myself, but I have no experience with modding aside from Module Manager patches. This will give me a reason to learn something useful.

So, the only file I see for this is the .mu file. Is that what I will need to edit, and what type of program would I need? Does that file also contain the collision/hitbox data? Any advice for getting started?

Like I had stated in my post, this cannot be fixed by end-users or even modders.

They are SQUADs parts.  They have the modeling files, they will need to fix the models.

(As others pointed out .mu is mostly a non-editable format)

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1 hour ago, Shadowmage said:

Like I had stated in my post, this cannot be fixed by end-users or even modders.

They are SQUADs parts. 

- create a fixed .mu

- edit Squad's .cfg of the original file to point to fixed .mu through ModuleManager

- pack and publish as a mod.

Lots of work and quite a bit of wasted RAM, but possible.

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Just now, Sharpy said:

- create a fixed .mu

- edit Squad's .cfg of the original file to point to fixed .mu through ModuleManager

- pack and publish as a mod.

Lots of work and quite a bit of wasted RAM, but possible.

I've personally never gotten step 1 to work out properly.  I can import the model into blender, but all the transform axis are messed up.  Would require complete re-rigging of the model to re-orient all of the transforms/meshes to the proper orientation.  Also the edge-groups / normals / smoothing get lost in the import, so those will need to be reworked.  Lastly, the UV mapping is often... incorrect on the imported mesh.  So that will need to be fixed as well (good luck without the original data...).  Skinned-mesh-renderers will need to have their vertex groups and weights re-assigned; basically need to redo the entire armature and rigging (none of that information imports).  So with a ton of work, yes, it could probably be done. 

From there it would all be the standard Unity/PartTools setup and exporting, which is trivial compared to fixing the model.  If you could get that far, you could, in theory, re-export the model with the same name as the original stock model and simply overwrite the original.  So should not be any wasted ram.  Of course, you cannot redistrubute stock model/art assets in any form, so could not pack it up as a mod if it included stock models/textures/etc.  Other mods might be possible -- would depend entirely on their licensing.

 

Doable by someone with little/no modding and modeling experience?  Not likely; might as well be impossible.  I won't even try it, and I know exactly what it would take and how to do all of the steps needed; its almost faster to create a brand new model + textures than to fix the imported stuff.  Requires a very good understanding both the standard part-modding setup, as well as a very good understanding of how the models need to be 'fixed' after being imported into blender. 

SQUAD's parts really need to be fixed by SQUAD, and other mods' parts are best fixed by those mods' authors or current maintainers.

 

@Sharpy you are not wrong; it could be done, at least in theory (not aware of anyone who has done it that way yet).  I had omitted the possible use of the .mu importer in my previous posts due to the problems that I mentioned in this post; for most of the KSP userbase it might as well not even be an option.

 

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14 hours ago, Micro753 said:
16 hours ago, Overland said:

Im.not sure what mod did this or none at all but reinstalling KSP fixed it (and full deleting of the directory manually)

This happens in the stock game as well. It has for as long as I can remember. I've always noticed it, but never bothered with looking into the cause/for a fix because I've never used IVA much before, so it was never a priority for me.

I was wrong. It definitely used to happen in stock, but I was messing with my files, and at one point it was just suddenly fixed. I don't know when it was fixed in stock, but apparently a mod is bringing back an old problem that used to occur in stock. Perhaps it is a mod using an outdated file from an old KSP version. I'll try to find which one is causing it.

 

43 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

Doable by someone with little/no modding and modeling experience?  Not likely; might as well be impossible.  I won't even try it, and I know exactly what it would take and how to do all of the steps needed; its almost faster to create a brand new model + textures than to fix the imported stuff.  Requires a very good understanding both the standard part-modding setup, as well as a very good understanding of how the models need to be 'fixed' after being imported into blender. 

SQUAD's parts really need to be fixed by SQUAD, and other mods' parts are best fixed by those mods' authors or current maintainers.

I've got a .mu decompiled, and I definitely see what you are talking about. There is no way I'll get anything usable done this way, but I may not need to because of what I said above this. If I can find the mod responsible, I may be able to fix it with a MM patch to make the mod use the fixed version.

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1 hour ago, Shadowmage said:

I've personally never gotten step 1 to work out properly.  I can import the model into blender, but all the transform axis are messed up.  Would require complete re-rigging of the model to re-orient all of the transforms/meshes to the proper orientation.  Also the edge-groups / normals / smoothing get lost in the import, so those will need to be reworked.

 

Well, I guess I never got that far. I'd only import a .mu to check 'how it's done', take measurements to make my model the same length/diameter/profile, or see which part of UV map corresponds to which face, I don't think I ever actually got anything imported as .mu into Blender exported again. But yeah, the route of .mu importer is long and bumpy, and I really don't believe Blender's .mu export option would be of any use.

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Ive had it happen as above when all i got installed mods wise is one cockpit..some modified monoprop powered and painted M1s and scatter.

Im still leaning more towards game file issue vs any "mod" causing it

The core of landtrain operations since 0.25

Nothings changed in my mods..

Sadly the game has itself

This bug when it happens effects *all* parts iva not just.mods

Edited by Overland
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