Commnet Relay from Duna

[turmith]

Not understanding Commnet, can someone advise.

There are 2 sats in orbit of Duna.

DSN is at level 2

The one with the polar orbit has a RA-2 and a Communotron 88-88  - Full connection to Kerbin

The second one with the Eqatorial orbit has a Communotron DTS-M1. 

There are green lines that show the sattelites connecting to eachother but I have limited probe control and no signal.

Shouldn't the DTS-M1 bounce the signal of the RA-2 and then out the 88-88 back to Kerbin allowing me to Comunicate and transmit science?

https://postimg.org/image/r6c8jhnzj/

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by turmith

[Snark]

Hello, and welcome to the forums! 

9 minutes ago, turmith said:

Shouldn't the DTS-M1 bounce the signal of the RA-2 and then out the 88-88

Alas, no.

Only relay antennas can make relay connections.  Direct antennas can make only direct connections.

When you're flying the polar satellite, it can connect directly to Kerbin, using the 88-88, because that's a direct connection.

When you're flyng the equatorial satellite... no go.

• It can talk directly to Kerbin via the DTS-M1... when Duna's close to Kerbin.  At DSN level 2, the comm range to a DTS-M1 will be 10G, which is enough to talk to Duna when it's near, but not when it's far.
• If it tries to use the polar satellite as a relay... the 88-88 is irrelevant and might as well not exist, since it's a direct antenna and therefore can't participate in a relay connection.  So in this case, all that matters for relay purposes is the RA-2. That RA-2 has the same power as the DTS-M1, and therefore the same range for talking to a level-2 DSN:  namely, 10G, i.e. enough to talk to Duna when it's close, not when it's far.

So, with the setup you've described, basically either Duna is close (within 10G) or far (above 10G).  When it's close, your equatorial satellite can talk to Duna either directly via its DTS-M1, or via the relay.  When it's far, it can't talk either way, and is a doorstop.

 

 

[turmith]

Thanks for the response.

The Relay said combinable so i assumed.

Oh well, guess i need a better relay then.

[Snark]

1 hour ago, turmith said:

The Relay said combinable so i assumed.

Yeah, they don't combine that way.  (Not exactly as clear as it could be, is it?)

Antennas marked "combinable" mean that when you have multiple of them, it boosts their collective power to a higher level than one antenna would be by itself.  (Not a lot, though-- you're always better off going to a higher-level antenna, if available.)

However, for purposes of relaying, relay antennas only combine with other relay antennas.

[Kryxal]

I usually use the HG-5 in pairs for the sake of balance, but balancing the CoM is pretty much the ONLY reason I do.

[Ohm is Futile]

2 hours ago, Kryxal said:

I usually use the HG-5 in pairs for the sake of balance, but balancing the CoM is pretty much the ONLY reason I do.

Those HG-5s are so weak, I skipped them entirely in my let's play. I find the tiny communotrons have more use than the HG-5s honestly simply because they're too weak to really relay anything. I feel that weak antennas are only good to get a connection to a stronger relay in your local SOI and that's it.

 

4 hours ago, Snark said:

[...]

Antennas marked "combinable" mean that when you have multiple of them, it boosts their collective power to a higher level than one antenna would be by itself.  (Not a lot, though-- you're always better off going to a higher-level antenna, if available.) [...]

That's rather subjective, I find that more than doubling the range of a relay/vehicle by using three antennas is not insignificant. Sure there are diminishing returns, but it's still quite a useful feature.

[Snark]

6 hours ago, Ohm is Futile said:

Those HG-5s are so weak, I skipped them entirely in my let's play. I find the tiny communotrons have more use than the HG-5s honestly simply because they're too weak to really relay anything. I feel that weak antennas are only good to get a connection to a stronger relay in your local SOI and that's it.

I've found that the HG-5 is useful for a couple of purposes:

• In early career, they make a good relay for use around the back side of the Mun (or Minmus), since they're the first relay antenna available.
• If you're playing a career game with the extra ground stations turned off (i.e. so that your signal has to go to KSC, specifically), then it becomes necessary to put communications satellites around Kerbin.  The HG-5 works great for that; two HG-5's can talk to each other across 5000 km, which is a nice range for putting a communications relay network in near-Kerbin space.

6 hours ago, Ohm is Futile said:

I find that more than doubling the range of a relay/vehicle by using three antennas is not insignificant. Sure there are diminishing returns, but it's still quite a useful feature.

Sure, I'm not disagreeing with you.  Note that I said "not a lot" -- I didn't say "insignificant". 

By "not a lot", I meant "not anywhere near as good as moving up to the next higher level of antenna", and also "subject to diminishing returns".

[Ohm is Futile]

I do play with extra ground stations off... but you can always go manned until you have RA-2s 

37 minutes ago, Snark said:

I've found that the HG-5 is useful for a couple of purposes:

• In early career, they make a good relay for use around the back side of the Mun (or Minmus), since they're the first relay antenna available.
• If you're playing a career game with the extra ground stations turned off (i.e. so that your signal has to go to KSC, specifically), then it becomes necessary to put communications satellites around Kerbin.  The HG-5 works great for that; two HG-5's can talk to each other across 5000 km, which is a nice range for putting a communications relay network in near-Kerbin space.

Except HG-5s will not connect with each other from Kerbin to the Mun. So if you do have extra stations off, then you still only get signal around the Mun when the KSC is underneath. Also, putting a network around Kerbin only lets you get signal to other probes around Kerbin and why would you need that early on? (except if you play with something like unmanned before manned mods)

In my opinion, there's very little incentive to put more powerful antennae near Kerbin once you have unlocked RA-2s or better. If you wait for RA-2s, you can toss them beyond Minmus orbit and ensure near complete coverage of the whole Kerbin system with about 4 satellites, which will not benefit from a prior HG-5 network in LKO. 

Anyways, if you want constant interplanetary signal, you will need to stack antennae. RA-2s are basically useless for an interplanetary network (with extra stations off, anyway) beyond relaying to a stronger dedicated satellite trailing Kerbin from outside its SOI. (you could set a bunch of stronger satellites within Kerbin's SOI, but there's no real need) Then, if you want to send interplanetary probes to the inner planets/Duna before RA-100s, you will need to stack RA-15s. You'll also need to stack RA-100s when you get them to get a strong, consistent signal to the outer planets.

If I rerail this, OP would need to send a relay with at least 2x RA-15s to get full control out to Duna when it's close to Kerbin and more for constant signal.

[Kryxal]

On 2017-01-21 at 3:15 PM, Ohm is Futile said:

Those HG-5s are so weak, I skipped them entirely in my let's play. I find the tiny communotrons have more use than the HG-5s honestly simply because they're too weak to really relay anything. I feel that weak antennas are only good to get a connection to a stronger relay in your local SOI and that's it.

And mostly I just plan to use the HG-5s to bounce a signal for a craft that needs it on landing or the like, it's enough to reach a stronger relay and works well radially.

[Spricigo]

14 hours ago, Kryxal said:

On 21/01/2017 at 6:15 PM, Ohm is Futile said:

Those HG-5s are so weak, I skipped them entirely in my let's play. I find the tiny communotrons have more use than the HG-5s honestly simply because they're too weak to really relay anything. I feel that weak antennas are only good to get a connection to a stronger relay in your local SOI and that's it.

 

And mostly I just plan to use the HG-5s to bounce a signal for a craft that needs it on landing or the like, it's enough to reach a stronger relay and works well radially.

 Agreed, its a "niche use" that is not so niche when you consider everything. Sadly Remote Guidance Units aren’t available at the same time HG-5s are, because a "local network" without contact to KSC its another niche that HG-5s fit well.

 

 

[Sharpy]

On 22.01.2017 at 3:45 AM, Snark said:

I've found that the HG-5 is useful for a couple of purposes:

• In early career, they make a good relay for use around the back side of the Mun (or Minmus), since they're the first relay antenna available.
• If you're playing a career game with the extra ground stations turned off (i.e. so that your signal has to go to KSC, specifically), then it becomes necessary to put communications satellites around Kerbin.  The HG-5 works great for that; two HG-5's can talk to each other across 5000 km, which is a nice range for putting a communications relay network in near-Kerbin space.

 

They can't reach Kerbin from Mun or Minmus until you have DSN level 3, at which point you'll usually have higher tier antennas and it's pointless to use this fragile crap for relays - your probe gets occluded by Mun not in low Mun orbit but somewhere halfway to Minmus - and whoops, you're out of range!

Plus they are really easy to break.

[Snark]

On 1/21/2017 at 11:02 PM, Ohm is Futile said:

Except HG-5s will not connect with each other from Kerbin to the Mun. So if you do have extra stations off, then you still only get signal around the Mun when the KSC is underneath.

Yes, but that's better than having no signal at all.  Without that, the entire back side of the Mun is off limits to comms.

Perhaps it's not useful to everybody with every play style.  But given my typical early-career trajectory, I find them really handy for this purpose, for a certain window until the RA-2 is unlocked.

On 1/21/2017 at 11:02 PM, Ohm is Futile said:

Also, putting a network around Kerbin only lets you get signal to other probes around Kerbin and why would you need that early on?

I find that quite useful.  I launch a lot of stuff to around Kerbin, and often they're either unmanned or don't have a pilot, so it comes in handy.  (e.g. rescue missions, which I generally launch as unmanned, single-kerbal-capacity ships).

 

3 hours ago, Sharpy said:

They can't reach Kerbin from Mun or Minmus until you have DSN level 3

What are you talking about?  Even level 1 DSN has a power of 2G, which gives you a range of 100,000 km with the HG-5.  That's bigger than the radius of Kerbin's SoI.

3 hours ago, Sharpy said:

Plus they are really easy to break.

*shrug*  Have never actually broken one, so it hasn't been an issue for me.

[SchwinnTropius]

As Snark has said, the HG-5s are handy early on, playstyle permitting. Two sats with two HG-5s each in highly eccentric polar orbits plus another identical sat or two in equatorial orbit gives great coverage back to Kerbin. It's a good start for a comm system, and everything can be easily upgraded later with better relays.