Is Laythe Possible IRL?

[A_name]

Like the title says, would a planet with oxygen and liquid water be possible IRL, say, in orbit around Jupiter?

[Leafbaron]

This video the guy builds the kerbol system in universe sandbox, which i've read is a very accurate simulator. i believe he talks about the joolian system around 14 minutes. 

The oxygen very possible, however the liquid water not so much. The gravitational tidal forces are not enough to keep the planet above freezing. but honestly who knows. anything is possible. if laythe had a molten iron core like earth things could be different. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Leafbaron

[regex]

1 hour ago, A_name said:

Like the title says, would a planet with oxygen and liquid water be possible IRL, say, in orbit around Jupiter?

Way too cold out there for liquid water on the surface, especially with a thinner atmosphere than Kerbin or Earth. Laythe would look more like Titan.

1 hour ago, Leafbaron said:

This video the guy builds the kerbol system in universe sandbox

He actually doesn't, the densities are off by at least an order of magnitude.

[Leafbaron]

4 minutes ago, regex said:

Way too cold out there for liquid water on the surface, especially with a thinner atmosphere than Kerbin or Earth. Laythe would look more like Titan.

He actually doesn't, the densities are off by at least an order of magnitude.

its not perfect but like he says in the video, to achieve densities that Kerbin bodies have there would need to be an element with those densities which currently has yet to be discovered by mankind. It'd be cool if you could introduce a new element to universe sandbox with the properties you want though. 

[regex]

6 minutes ago, Leafbaron said:

its not perfect but like he says in the video, to achieve densities that Kerbin bodies have there would need to be an element with those densities which currently has yet to be discovered by mankind.

Yes, which is why it's not the Kerbol system and why the video is a poor example of what is possible. You really can't replicate the toy solar system in tools grounded in real life for the simple fact that KSP pays lip service to gameplay (the star Kerbol simply cannot exist, for example). OP's question was specific to the orbit of Jupiter.

Edited January 31, 2017 by regex

[HebaruSan]

12 minutes ago, regex said:

OP's question was specific to the orbit of Jupiter.

Nah, Jupiter was just given as one example (emphasis added):

1 hour ago, A_name said:

Like the title says, would a planet with oxygen and liquid water be possible IRL, say, in orbit around Jupiter?

 

[regex]

45 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Nah, Jupiter was just given as one example (emphasis added):

Ah, well then. Let's rephrase the answer.

If you're talking about in the orbit of Jool no, Laythe cannot possibly exist because the solar system in KSP as presented simply cannot exist for many reasons, chief among those ridiculous densities. If you're talking about the orbit of Jupiter then, no, probably not given the presence of liquid water on the surface in such a cold environment; a planet like Laythe would be much more likely if it resembled Titan in structure and atmospheric constituents. If you're talking about the orbit of Earth, or in the habitable zone of a star then yes, a planet like Laythe could probably exist.

Better?

E: Regarding how cold it is out at Jupiter orbit, Jupiter receives less than 1/25 as much energy from the Sun as Earth. That means Laythe would have to make up deficit in tidal heating (or some other internal source, but most likely tidal heating), which would probably imply a volcanic hellscape of a planet, not a pleasantly serene, oxygen-rich, ocean world.

E2: Also, it's important to remember that the definition of a "habitable zone" in astronomy is the range at which liquid water can exist given sufficient atmospheric pressure.

E3: and in that vein, if a gas or ice giant were in the habitable zone of a star and a planet orbited that gas or ice giant at an amenable distance, with the right mass to hold a thick enough atmosphere then yes, Laythe could definitely exist. The Nice model postulates that the ice giants formed closer to the Sun than their current orbits suggest and extrasolar discoveries indicate that giant planets do orbit closer to their suns than ours, so a Laythe-like planet probably exists somewhere out there, but not outside the habitable zone.

Edited February 1, 2017 by regex

[Papa_Joe]

Pun intended:  IRL, Leythe is NOT possible, as IRL, it does not exist.  

[FancyMouse]

Is it possible that greenhouse gases could make surface temperature high enough? A RL example would be Venus at ~700k surface temperature which would radiate maybe 16x the energy it absorbs from the Sun if Venus were a black body.

I guess maybe Laythe's atmosphere is not thick enough even if all of it is greenhouse gases, but maybe at least it's theoretically possible?

[regex]

14 minutes ago, FancyMouse said:

Is it possible that greenhouse gases could make surface temperature high enough? A RL example would be Venus at ~700k surface temperature which would radiate maybe 16x the energy it absorbs from the Sun if Venus were a black body.

I guess maybe Laythe's atmosphere is not thick enough even if all of it is greenhouse gases, but maybe at least it's theoretically possible?

If it is theoretically possible that still doesn't mean an IRL Laythe-alike, a planet with a thinner atmosphere than its Earth-analogue Kerbin but with constituents suitable for normal, everyday jet engines to run perfectly fine within, can exist.

[waterlubber]

2 minutes ago, regex said:

If it is theoretically possible that still doesn't mean an IRL Laythe-alike, a planet with a thinner atmosphere than its Earth-analogue Kerbin but with constituents suitable for normal, everyday jet engines to run perfectly fine within, can exist.

Other than the ridiculous densities you find in the game, and the orbits of other moons. If I remember correctly, Jool's moons are in very, very unstable orbits with n-body mechanics and Vall would be ejected instantly, later Laythe as well IIRC.

[regex]

Just now, waterlubber said:

Other than the ridiculous densities you find in the game, and the orbits of other moons. If I remember correctly, Jool's moons are in very, very unstable orbits with n-body mechanics and Vall would be ejected instantly, later Laythe as well IIRC.

Principia makes Bop orbit retrograde (IIRC) in order to allow for a stable Jool system.

[waterlubber]

Just now, regex said:

Principia makes Bop orbit retrograde (IIRC) in order to allow for a stable Jool system.

Does that keep Vall in check, or just Bop from getting ejected?

I guess you might construe that as "Bop is a captured asteroid". Probably a pretty large one, though.

[StupidAndy]

I made Laythe in US2, but it wasn't a moon, and it wasn't scale to Jool's orbit, so maybe...

[regex]

Just now, waterlubber said:

Does that keep Vall in check, or just Bop from getting ejected?

From the images I saw what @eggrobin shared with me, making Bop orbit retrograde stabilizes the whole system for some 1000 years? Or maybe 100? Can't remember, but it's enough to play a full career game.

[Reusables]

 

23 minutes ago, FancyMouse said:

Is it possible that greenhouse gases could make surface temperature high enough? A RL example would be Venus at ~700k surface temperature which would radiate maybe 16x the energy it absorbs from the Sun if Venus were a black body.

I guess maybe Laythe's atmosphere is not thick enough even if all of it is greenhouse gases, but maybe at least it's theoretically possible?

I think it's possible if it had thick atmosphere. Venus, which has 737K of temperature IRL, should be cold as 300K if it were blackbody. This means that it's emitting 36.4 times less heat for its temperature. (As a reference, earth has 288K mean temp. while it would have 255K mean temp. if it were blackbody, emitting 1.63 times less heat for its temp.)

Considering that laythe gets 25th of the sunlight that Kerbin gets, the temperature of Laythe could be gained with atmosphere slightly thicker than Venus. (Or probably, methane-rich atmosphere with water vapors dominating it)

It is questionable whether it could gain and maintain the atmosphere, though. Unlike Venus, it's too cold for runaway greenhouse effect. The tidal force makes it unlikely to maintain the atmosphere as well.

[waterlubber]

2 minutes ago, regex said:

From the images I saw what @eggrobin shared with me, making Bop orbit retrograde stabilizes the whole system for some 1000 years? Or maybe 100? Can't remember, but it's enough to play a full career game.

That's wild. N-body physics are very unintuitive.

 

Back on-topic, if Laythe's atmosphere was similar to Kerbin/Earth's, would it remain in place because of Van Allen Belts/Hill sphere? Parts of it might be blown off by charged particles, unless it had a field of its own. (Which it might)

 

In terms of temperature and atmosphere, sulfur compounds from volcanic activity might contribute to it and explain why it's atmosphere contains oxygen but is not breathable.

Edited February 1, 2017 by waterlubber

[Nathair]

1 hour ago, Papa_Joe said:

IRL, Leythe is NOT possible, as IRL, it does not exist.  

I hate to quibble but... OK, I love to quibble but just because something does not exist or has not been found does not mean it's not possible.

[Papa_Joe]

Touche

[Nathair]

45 minutes ago, FancyMouse said:

Is it possible that greenhouse gases could make surface temperature high enough? A RL example would be Venus at ~700k surface temperature which would radiate maybe 16x the energy it absorbs from the Sun if Venus were a black body.

I guess maybe Laythe's atmosphere is not thick enough even if all of it is greenhouse gases, but maybe at least it's theoretically possible?

 

Maybe a profoundly radioactive planet would get the job done. A youngish planet made entirely of the right radioactive elements with a heavy greenhouse atmosphere might do it?

[waterlubber]

13 minutes ago, Nathair said:

Maybe a profoundly radioactive planet would get the job done. A youngish planet made entirely of the right radioactive elements with a heavy greenhouse atmosphere might do it?

could also be a gas giant that falls closer to the star.

 

And if it is possible by any stretch of the imagination it likely exists - think ~100 to 1000 billion stars per galaxy, and trillions of galaxies, each system containing likely at least one and most likely 2 or more gas giants.

Each gas giant contains up to hundreds of moons, the chance that it doesn't exist or at least something similar doesn't are astronomically ^{(see what I did there?)} low.

[Nathair]

53 minutes ago, waterlubber said:

could also be a gas giant that falls closer to the star.

 

And if it is possible by any stretch of the imagination it likely exists - think ~100 to 1000 billion stars per galaxy, and trillions of galaxies, each system containing likely at least one and most likely 2 or more gas giants.

Each gas giant contains up to hundreds of moons, the chance that it doesn't exist or at least something similar doesn't are astronomically ^{(see what I did there?)} low.

 

Certainly possible, look at HAT-P-6b.

[Martian Emigrant]

Hi.

About an oxygen rich atmosphere.

It can't exist on it's own. Oxygen is very reactive. A planet that would form with a lot of it would oxidise until there was none left.

It would combine with other gases, rocks, soils.

The reason we have so much is because our plants break the carbon-dioxyde for their own profit.

They use energy to do that. From the sun. In a way they reverse entropy. They break chemical bonds and make higher energy molecules.

When we burn plants by fire (Or through eating them) we release the stored energy. We get the sunlight energy back.

If one-day we can take direct reading of the atmosphere of an exo-planet and see free oxygen that would be a smoking gun for life.

Or a very, very strange chemistry in place.

 

ME

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Martian Emigrant

[Reusables]

11 minutes ago, Martian Emigrant said:

Hi.

About an oxygen rich atmosphere.

It can't exist on it's own. Oxygen is very reactive. A planet that would form with a lot of it would oxidise until there was none left.

It would combine with other gases, rocks, soils.

The reason we have so much is because our plants break the carbon-dioxyde for their own profit.

They use energy to do that. From the sun. In a way they reverse entropy. They break chemical bonds and make higher energy molecules.

When we burn plants by fire (Or through eating them) we release the stored energy. We get the sunlight energy back.

If one-day we can take direct reading of the atmosphere of an exo-planet and see free oxygen that would be a smoking gun for life.

Or a very, very strange chemistry in place.

 

ME

Actually there is a mechanism which produces oxygen on the atmosphere: UV rays breaking water vapors into hydrogen & oxygen gas.

This is quite common for planets getting runaway greenhouse effect, since they have relatively high water vapor concentration in its high atmosphere. The hot temperature causes water vapor to go up higher, where it's prone to bombardment of solar UV rays. The resulted hydrogen gas escapes the planet, while the oxygen gas falls to the bottom of the atmosphere due to its high molar mass.

On the other hand, cold planets like our Earth remains intact thanks to the cold trap. It prevents water vapor to go up and disintegrated by UV rays.

Also this is what our planet, Earth, will experience in the future. Since the luminosity of the Sun is increasing throughout its life on main sequence, Earth will get hotter and hotter. Once sufficient temperature is achieved, it will cause the positive feedback of the runaway greenhouse effect. Then this planet will be harsh deserted world, where neither water nor any traces of life exist.

[MinimalMinmus]

My guess: Laythe has some very potent greenhouse gases around it, such as CFC (10000 times better than co2). This would be supported by the theory that Jool gets it's green with fluorine and chlorine.

As for co2 to break into o2 I guess it comes from a lot ofundersea volcanoes

Edited February 1, 2017 by MinimalMinmus