Gaarst

Community Mods and Plugins Library continued for 1.2.2 & 1.3

156 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

@Gaarst

So, hi there! I Would like to rise the thing with mod list translation again, because I think this will benefit people a LOT. :)

Lets start with method design :)  The time we find consensus here, I'll move forward with implementation.

I would like to ask you to comment upon and offer your ideas!

We must discuss: guidelines, challenges, translation process and method of implementation.

 

version 1.0
Method design

Common guidelines

Lets propose that the changes should enhance result of what is currently done, minimizing the strain on existing workflow.

It would also be good if its required that the method is as OS- and Software-agnostic as possible (and at same time, does not require fiddling).
Ideally, the results should be easy to view and (ideally to) edit on any device and any OS.

We talked about having some Spreadsheet, which I think is a good idea. So long the format is not proprietary or can be reliably opened for edit on other software.

Some more?

 


A few challenges out of my head to keep in mind:

Challenges
1. Translation lag
Translating descriptions takes some time. The descriptions will not be translated immediately, so there will be translation lag.
For example: the translator takes the main version and translates 10% of the text - and 10% of the original text will be created or changed.
Translator then uploads the updated version to English, but:
- Main (English) version will drift with 10% difference, this increases strain on Maintainer of English version.
- Translated version will drift further having outdated strings.
Ways to solve:
- use online collaboration tool
- use an edit-lock on main version (require translator to submit small portions within very small time windows)
- more?

 

2. Vandalism problem
There two kinds of access: for edit and for view.
Those who edit, must be given uncomplicated access - and at same time they must not be able to:
- vandalize or modify English version
- vandalize Own version
Ways to solve:
- translators should have good reputation
- have more than one translator in specific language
- online editors must implement cell lock or provide partial access
- instead of linking to or giving original document, link to the copy and then merge changes
- more?

 

Translation process
for offine
website-based
1. You work with the community on this thread as usual. You just push the new changes.
2. The translator signals you, then you agree on promt (ideally same-day) translation
3. The translator copy-pastes the English version into his thread and starts to localize it - at same time, you hold lock on the changes in English version.
4. The translator translates the "Description" of the mod and "Category descriptions" in his own language - without substitution of existing strings (unless change is documented)
5. The translator then signals you, and you copy his changes back after review.
6. The lock is lifted and all accumulated changes to English thread are pushed.
disadvantages:
- the lock
- English version will be always ahead and translated versions will be always behind
- complicated
 

document-based
like spreadsheet online below, except:
- no online collaboration
- additional steps for English maintainer (Gaarst) in integration information back and forth

 

for online
spreadsheet based
1. There is an online version that you have write access to, and community has read access.
2. You update online version, and then copy the changes into 1st post. So 1st post and online versions are always same.
3. You periodically do backups of online main version, just in case.
4a. If the translator is trusted, you can give him direct access. Nothing else necessary here.
4b. If the translator is not trusted, you give him access to clone. No lock necessary.
5. After translator updates the clone, you copy back just his language field in the spreadsheet and remove the clone.

 

Suggested spreadsheet layout:

Colomn A - Category, always in English
Column B - Name, always in English
Colomn C - Version (with regular coding), always in English
Colomn D - Description, in English
Column E - reserved for English
Column F - reserved for English
Column G - Category translation language A
Column H - Description translation language A
Column I - reserved for A
Column J - Category translation language B
Column K - Description translation language B
Column L - reserved for B
Column N - Category translation language C
...
And so on.
Ideas?

 

There are offline spreadsheets like: LibreOffice, MSOffice, more? (Android? Winphone? Iphone?)

Online spreadsheets like: Google Documents, Excel Online, more?
 

Candidates: online spreadsheets

1. Excel Online
Service is reliable: yes
Works in Windows: yes
Works in Linux: yes (tested by @Kerbal101 on Firefox 53)

Registration to edit: yes (basic email registration)
Registration to view: no (can create a read-only Link via menu; tested in "Firefox, Private mode" on Linux by @Kerbal101 )

Document viewable online: yes
Document editable online: yes
Document can be saved for offline: yes (xslx, ods)
Document updated offline version  can be uploaded: yes


2. Google Documents

Service is reliable: yes

Works in Windows: yes
Works in Linux: yes

Registration to edit: yes (complex google registration)
Registration to view: no (can create a Link, choose File View and pick access methods; tested in "Firefox, Private mode" on Linux by @Kerbal101)

Document viewable online: yes
Document editable online: yes
Document can be saved for offline: yes (xslx, ods, pdf, csv)
Document updated offline version  can be uploaded: yes
 

3. more candidates here

 

EOF :)

 

@Gaarst Gaarst, I suggest online through either MS Excel or Google Documents, if you find this okay, go ahead and start it. Drop me a note, so that I can collaborate too, I can help you put the english version fast too.
Thanks!

Edited by Kerbal101
forgot a bit of text, a lot of stuff went into one post.
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@Kerbal101 

What you wrote is really interesting, a lot of good ideas there, and some good remarks on the different problems.

I don't know yet exactly how I would handle a spreadsheet for the mod library, mostly because I have no experience in managing community projects besides this list, and so far is has been quite closed (with only 2 people maintaining it).

I'm not sure I got everything you said, but it'll definitely be useful. Based on what you wrote, I think I'll go for a MS Excel online spreadsheet (mostly because that's the software I have experience with). I also like the idea of keeping the spreadsheet locked for everyone and having a clone (or "development") spreadsheet opened to everyone, with the changes being ported from the clone to the main list by trusted people only; I don't think keeping everything open would be a good idea. I'll have to think a bit further into it, and see how we can track changes reliably.

I have no idea how to write/manage a website, and am not planning on learning anytime soon, so I don't think this will happen. At least not from me.

For the layout, instead of handling translations by column, I think it would be better to have separate pages of the spreadsheet for different languages. It may be a bit more complicated to keep every language synchronised this way, but it will avoid have tens of columns for the many languages KSP is supposed to be translated into. Again, I'll have to think about it, and we'll probably change things on the go as the problems get apparent.

I'll try to get started on the spreadsheet by the end of the week, but I still have quite a few things to do (adding mods released after the end of April to the list, as well as sorting some things out in my personal life), so I don't guarantee it'll be done by then.

I'll keep you informed on what I'm doing.

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Posted (edited)

@Gaarst

Thank you for reading this wall of text :)  Actually its easy to start - we agree on something(already did!) and go do some work, bit after bit, while keeping in touch - until we run 100% predictable. :)

36 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

I think I'll go for a MS Excel online spreadsheet (mostly because that's the software I have experience with)

I think you already said just enough for me to start working on things. :)  The spreadsheets are same and as easy to work with as with text tables, because we will be using them as plain tables (no cell calculations etc.)
Its really good that online Excel works on Linux and needs no license (MSO doesn't), but I was looking at it from "availability for the long run" - for example Google Docs has been there since ages, but Online Excel is fine.

36 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

I have no idea how to write/manage a website

I think we misunderstand each other in paragraph

"Translation process
for offine
website-based"

With "offline" I meant the changes, so the changes have to be done offline/locally, in a stand-alone software, as opposed to "online" - in a browser, that runs javascript/html5-based web-page that looks like ... spreadsheet program.
Offline would be - "MSO suit", online would be - "excel online".

Specifically in that paragraph, that means that English changes are applied in this thread, 1st post and also duplicated into "offline spreadsheet".
For the translation, this spreadsheet must be given to translator - and then ported back.

We could limit ourselves with this forum only. But there will be problems with syncing the lists.
Having a spreadsheet - the users of other language can still be 100% in sync with English version, the descriptions will just be absent (a TODO for translators).
Or a translator would have to learn "diff"-type software, so he/she can filter the untranslated entries... every time, every sync - and the localized list will be unsynced too.

36 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

For the layout, instead of handling translations by column, I think it would be better to have separate pages of the spreadsheet for different languages.

And here are the issues (as I see them):
1) Only Excel Online spreadsheet supports pages (LibreOffice supports pages, but its offline software; Google Spreadsheet does not support pages)
2) For the mods which are still not translated, the people will have hard time listing pages forward and back
3) If we do it as pages instead of columns, then the spreadsheet itself will constantly run out of sync on English update.
Let me give a speedy example:

T+0h ) English table consists of three entries(horizontal rows): A > Mod AAA, B > Mod BBB , C > Mod CCC
T+1h ) We give this table to Hawaiian translator (pure example), or add him edit rights to online spreadsheet.
He creates a separate page, where he duplicates Table on page 1, and translates it.
Hawaiian Page 2 now has same three entries: A > Mod AAA, B > Mod BBB , C > Mod CCC
T +3h) Translator sends us document back, or we see the changes he did online. Right now the pages are synced.
T +5h) Someone sends you a mod, called AAB, you add it. Right now English page has four mods: A > Mod AAA, B > Mod AAB, C > Mod BBB , D > Mod CCC

To note are two things:
- Mod AAB has shifted rest down the row +1
- Hawaiian page 2 is out of sync in row order, the C row in page 2 corresponds to D row in page 1.

 

If we implement translations as (vertical) columns, as opposed to pages, then:
- columns can be hidden or made small by click-dragging at the border of the column on individual basis.
- columns are always in sync with the row, adding extra entry in the middle, will not jeopardize the strings in other cells.

--

So if we get settled here, I can start with adding entries into the table. The access to that table is completely irrelevant, because it is not official.
When you have time to work or look on the result - just leave me a note and I will drop you a link via PM, and you can always download the document to you, or I will transfer the edit right to your account and you'll start moderating access rights to it.

To be clear upfront - the rights in regard to the whole work around this translation thingy, are and stay yours (and whoever you assign to). :)

Edited by Kerbal101
errata

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sounds like you're trying to solve a database problem with a spreadsheet approach.

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8 hours ago, LeuZ said:

I think this mod is missing in the list:

 

Because its link is dead its invalid for inclusion into the library listing.

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