alpha tech

Making a rocket to beat all other rockets

274 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, peadar1987 said:

Assuming you know how to use things that are incredibly dangerous, with no formal training, a sketchy knowledge of the underlying theory and minimal experience just "because you're a redneck" is a recipe for disaster.

you dont need a fancy collage degree to make a @#$! rocket or rewire an electrical outlet

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5 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

you dont need a fancy collage degree to make a @#$! rocket or rewire an electrical outlet

No, but you need some sort of theoretical grounding in thermodynamics to design the engine, knowledge of material science to spec out your components, machine shop training to fabricate hundreds of parts to a high enough quality that it isn't going to blow up in your face, material handling training for solid fuel and cryogenics so they don't blow up in your face either. The fact that you're equating building a suborbital liquid-fuelled rocket with wiring a plug shows that you most likely don't have that.

You might get lucky and bungle your way through the whole thing without anything going wrong, but you're taking a massive risk, not only with your own life but with your brother's, and anyone else nearby.

Edited by peadar1987
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seriously i haven't even got any useful info because some one keeps running on about safety when i DON'T HAVE A ROCKET YET HOW MAY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MY SELF.

 

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We will not give you info if you have demonstrated you will not take proper safety precautions.

Which, you have.

Edited by munlander1
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3 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

seriously i haven't even got any useful info because some one keeps running on about safety when i DON'T HAVE A ROCKET YET HOW MAY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MY SELF.

 

Quite frankly, it would be irresponsible for anyone on the forum to give you any advice that might bring you closer to building a functioning rocket/bomb when you've shown complete disdain and disregard for any semblance of safety procedure to protect either yourself or others. Sorry to sound harsh, but it's true.

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Just now, alpha tech said:

seriously i haven't even got any useful info because some one keeps running on about safety when i DON'T HAVE A ROCKET YET HOW MAY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MY SELF.

I pointed you to a thread with a real amateur rocket engine builder. Look at all the work done, and look at what stage it is.

And basically all the "engineering" assumptions you did in the OP are wrong.

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i just freaking guess engineered this with minimal research and if i wanted to build a bomb i would build a bomb and not a rocket.

5 minutes ago, kunok said:

I pointed you to a thread with a real amateur rocket engine builder. Look at all the work done, and look at what stage it is.

And basically all the "engineering" assumptions you did in the OP are wrong.

you, you did good this will help me some

 

Edited by alpha tech
misphrase of words

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also for safety is the revenue man gonna get me for making moonshine which is ethanol for rocket fuel

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Just now, alpha tech said:

i just freaking guess engineered this with minimal research and if i wanted to i would build a bomb and not a rocket.

you, you did good this will help me some

 

The worry isn't that you would build a bomb intentionally, the worry is that your rocket would turn into a bomb.

Your pump overspeeds? Bomb.

Internal bulkhead ruptures? Bomb.

Thermal insulation insufficient for cryogenic fuels? Bomb.

Stabilisation system doesn't work? Bomb.

This is difficult stuff. It's dangerous, and people are more concerned with the fact that you got angry and defensive when they suggested you take reasonable safety precautions than the fact that your calculations are only at a preliminary stage.

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4 minutes ago, peadar1987 said:

The worry isn't that you would build a bomb intentionally, the worry is that your rocket would turn into a bomb.

Your pump overspeeds? Bomb.

Internal bulkhead ruptures? Bomb.

Thermal insulation insufficient for cryogenic fuels? Bomb.

Stabilization system doesn't work? Bomb.

This is difficult stuff. It's dangerous, and people are more concerned with the fact that you got angry and defensive when they suggested you take reasonable safety precautions than the fact that your calculations are only at a preliminary stage.

how bout put a bomb on it so it doesn't turn into a bomb that way it will incinerate before it hits the ground. like a spy satellite

Edited by alpha tech

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Just now, alpha tech said:

how bout put a bomb on it so it doesn't turn into a bomb that way it will incinerate before it hits the ground. like a spy satellite

Yeah, range safety is a good idea. For a suborbital satellite you're still going to have a lot of debris that doesn't burn up before it hits the ground, but at least you'd be breaking it up and making sure it didn't hit anything fully-fuelled.

On the other hand, it still doesn't deal with the problem of it blowing up on the ground, during fuelling, or at any other stage. And it adds the extra step of making an actual bomb, which is another layer of danger on top of what you would already be doing.

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2 minutes ago, peadar1987 said:

Yeah, range safety is a good idea. For a suborbital satellite you're still going to have a lot of debris that doesn't burn up before it hits the ground, but at least you'd be breaking it up and making sure it didn't hit anything fully-fuelled.

On the other hand, it still doesn't deal with the problem of it blowing up on the ground, during fuelling, or at any other stage. And it adds the extra step of making an actual bomb, which is another layer of danger on top of what you would already be doing.

fuel dump

 

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18 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

fuel dump

 

Now that's not a bad idea. Set it up so you're sure it's not going to accidentally dump fuel on the pad or with people around and you might be onto something.

I'd still recommend going to a local amateur rocketry club though. Every problem you have, they'll have had before, and will know how to fix it. They'll be interested, they'll know how to help you out, and they'll know how to keep you safe.

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2 minutes ago, peadar1987 said:

Now that's not a bad idea. Set it up so you're sure it's not going to accidentally dump fuel on the pad or with people around and you might be onto something.

I'd still recommend going to a local amateur rocketry club though. Every problem you have, they'll have had before, and will know how to fix it. They'll be interested, they'll know how to help you out, and they'll know how to keep you safe.

our town is poor

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1 hour ago, alpha tech said:

question do any of you live in any state that is part of the southeastern united states

Born and raised. And it sounds to me like ya'll are fixen to blow your noggins off. :huh:

I think a little perspective is in order. I did a bit of poking around on the internet and found this. . .

Quote

One of the few cartridges where the powder load is often heavier than the bullet weight, the .17 Remington was introduced by Remington in 1971 as a varmint load for their 700-series rifles. While its poor ballistic coefficient limits its effective range to around 440 yards, its flat trajectory, low recoil and minimal noise makes it a fantastic choice for varmints and other small predators. Some factory loads can reach speeds of over 4,400 feet per second, making it the fastest commercially-available rifle cartridge.

-- http://www.wideopenspaces.com/8-cartridges-highest-fps-speed-pics/

For comparison, the required velocity for low earth orbit is around 25,600 feet per second. 

It takes an awful lot of energy to get up to those speeds. And the need to pack that energy into as small and as light of a package as possible means even the most well designed rocket is basically a fireball looking for an excuse. 

You are correct when you say don't need a college degree to build amateur rockets. But you do need to be respectful of them, because they can and will kill you given half a chance to do so. 

I would recommend finding a copy of Rocket Boys. It will give you a better idea of what you're in for and what your expectations should be. 

And just a heads up. . .

hqdefault.jpg

See that rocket sitting on the table next to them? It's a scale model of the Jupiter-C that put Explorer 1 into orbit. That little tiny rod at the top of the model is the satellite those guys are holding up. 

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4 minutes ago, Ten Key said:

Born and raised. And it sounds to me like ya'll are fixen to blow your noggins off. :huh:

I think a little perspective is in order. I did a bit of poking around on the internet and found this. . .

For comparison, the required velocity for low earth orbit is around 25,600 feet per second. 

It takes an awful lot of energy to get up to those speeds. And the need to pack that energy into as small and as light of a package as possible means even the most well designed rocket is basically a fireball looking for an excuse. 

You are correct when you say don't need a college degree to build amateur rockets. But you do need to be respectful of them, because they can and will kill you given half a chance to do so. 

I would recommend finding a copy of Rocket Boys. It will give you a better idea of what you're in for and what your expectations should be. 

And just a heads up. . .

hqdefault.jpg

See that rocket sitting on the table next to them? It's a scale model of the Jupiter-C that put Explorer 1 into orbit. That little tiny rod at the top of the model is the satellite those guys are holding up. 

took 3 guys to hold it

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i know the math and science behind making it. i just need to build it

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2 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

i know the math and science behind making it. i just need to build it

Please elaborate 

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8 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

took 3 guys to hold it

More than half of that tube is the solid rocket that made up the final stage of the launch system.

Explorer1_sketch.jpg

Edited by Ten Key

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1 minute ago, munlander1 said:

Please elaborate 

the isp, delta v, olberth effect ect.

 

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17 minutes ago, alpha tech said:

took 3 guys to hold it

Incredibly astute observation.  The point is that rockets are big, heavy, and packed with highly explosive material.  A rocket is a (series of) contained explosion(s), and if any little tiny part fails, then those explosions are no longer contained, and it becomes a bomb instead of a rocket, which will seriously damage anything (person, building, animals, etc) nearby when it goes off.  It needs to travel nearly 6 times faster than the fastest commercially-manufactured bullet available to reach orbit.  That is a LOT of potential energy, and if it all goes off at once on the pad, then its gonna leave a smoldering crater and launch shrapnel at bullet speeds in every direction.

We're not saying you can't do it - we're just saying that you need to educate yourself as much as possible on the subject before you start building.  Starting here at the KSP forums is a great place - just please heed the advice of the people who know what they're talking about! 

I'd hate to hear about an amateur rocket exploding and killing someone in South Carolina any time in the near future  :(   Just be safe!

Edited by Slam_Jones
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And how will you communicate with the satellite? What about launch? Will there be a back up unless communication is lost?

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5 minutes ago, Slam_Jones said:

Incredibly astute observation.  The point is that rockets are big, heavy, and packed with highly explosive material.  A rocket is a (series of) contained explosion(s), and if any little tiny part fails, then those explosions are no longer contained, and it becomes a bomb instead of a rocket, which will seriously damage anything (person, building, animals, etc) nearby when it goes off.  It needs to travel nearly 6 times faster than the fastest commercially-manufactured bullet available to reach orbit.  That is a LOT of potential energy, and if it all goes off at once on the pad, then its gonna leave a smoldering crater and launch shrapnel at bullet speeds in every direction.

We're not saying you can't do it - we're just saying that you need to educate yourself as much as possible on the subject before you start building.  Starting here at the KSP forums is a great place - just please heed the advice of the people who know what they're talking about! 

I'd hate to hear about an amateur rocket exploding and killing someone in South Carolina any time in the near future  :(   Just be safe!

90 % of a rockets mass is fuel

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23 hours ago, alpha tech said:

90 % of a rockets mass is fuel

Give or take depending on the mission parameters and payload, yes.  That is more or less correct.   (Edited to say I think it's usually between 95 - 99%, but you are still in the right ballpark)

W̶h̶i̶l̶e̶ ̶I̶'̶v̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶e̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶n̶a̶ ̶a̶s̶k̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶i̶t̶l̶e̶.̶ ̶ ̶W̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶r̶o̶c̶k̶e̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶"̶b̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶r̶o̶c̶k̶e̶t̶s̶?̶"̶

(Never mind on the last line, he believes it will 'beat all other rockets' because he intends for it to make orbit.)

Edited by Slam_Jones
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