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A no-automation Space Program?


Zeiss Ikon

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I realized over the past few days that in my current Science save, I've implemented a few self-imposed rules that may be a little different from the common ones like "don't leave debris in orbit" or "no Kerbal left behind".  Mind you, I try to do both of those (though I currently have a stage persistently ellipsing Kerbin -- not circling, it's pretty eccentric -- with a periapsis too high to ever decay without a "decaying orbits" mod).  What I'm referring to is that I made a decision very early on, after Jeb's first flight in a Jumping Flea, never to put a Kerbal on top of a solid fuel engine again -- just because I think an engine you can't shut off or throttle once ignited is generally a bad thing for crewed flight.  I started making decisions in the tech tree that amounted to making mine a rocket science program, without any of those dangerous-looking hypersonic gliders or HOTOL launchers.

And, a bit further on, I realized that my particular KSP (at least this Science game) is basically about Kerbal heroism -- individual Kerbals (so far, don't have multi-crew command pods yet other than lander cans) going out into the Kerbol system in flying tin cans, piloting their own ships, using helper automation (like SAS and maneuver nodes) but not letting automation replace the pilots.  In my mind, I've rationalized this as being due to a very strong union representing Kerbal space pilots, engineers, and scientists, applying pressure on the decision makers to ensure that their constituents are never put out of work by robot replacements.

It makes for an interesting space program, in my opinion -- no solid boosters means if I need "moar power" I have to find ways to get it with liquid fuel, which sometimes means flying an old model rocket for multiple missions to bring back enough science to upgrade enough nodes to build a bigger rocket that can lift itself -- or using Thuds, now that I have them, to increase thrust of a stage. A design I'm still refining has 13 Mainsails and 30 Thuds firing at launch, with seven cores boosted by six strap-ons (the latter of which have five Thuds each), and can orbit a transfer stage with 5000+ m/s delta-V (pushing a heavy lander that can land on, and hopefully return from, any low-atmosphere body in the stock system, possibly excepting Tylo) -- and I designed that before even unlocking the Rhino, Mammoth, or Vector.  Sure, I could send probes to Moho, Gilly, Ike, Duna, Dres, Vall, Bop, Tylo, and Eloo with launchers a tenth the size -- but that would get the Kerbal Space Pilots' and Engineers' Union up in arms, and you don't want those guys to go out on strike (plus, they own the Design Committee and everyone in Mission Control is a member).

No space planes or glide return shuttles means everything comes down under parachutes, at least until I can build thrust-hover landers that return to Kerbin with enough fuel to, well, land.

And no unmanned missions means I "have to" send multiple missions to Mun and Minmus to mine the data from their various biomes, always do the local science when a command pod lands on land (in hopes of getting some biome other than "grasslands", "mountains", "highlands", "shore", "waters" -- Jeb's been to the Northern Ice Shelf, but no one has been to the southern one yet, I'll get it eventually).  So far, the science has been good, but I think I'm going to have to send missions to Ike or Gilly soon -- the new ship can get there, the only question is whether it can get back after orbital capture and adjustments.  You can bet a Kerbal will be checking the fuel gauge before undocking the lander...

Edited by Zeiss Ikon
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Now there's an interesting set of rules. :)

The "no gliders" rule wouldn't affect me much, since I tend not to use them anyway. And I just love SRBs too much (dat column o' flame!) to do a career without them.

But "no probe cores" sounds interesting. Could especially be challenging if combined with a life support mod. I like that it would really give a good reason for pilots, all the way through the career. (Otherwise, I always find that pilots have rather an existential crisis as soon as I unlock the HECS.)

May just have to try out a career with these settings. :) One thing that would come in handy for a career like that would be to add a little snippet of ModuleManager config that would remove all probe cores from the game (basically, "remove every part that has ship command ability but zero crew requirement").  Not only would that help to ensure remaining virtuous, but it would reduce VAB clutter by getting those parts out of there.

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3 hours ago, Snark said:

...ModuleManager config that would remove all probe cores...

I'd hate to be the Kerbal assigned to babysitting a relay. I mean yeah, you could probably go a whole career without transmitting science, but what if you just don't like that one guy? :P 

At least he'd have good internet.

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7 minutes ago, FungusForge said:

I'd hate to be the Kerbal assigned to babysitting a relay. I mean yeah, you could probably go a whole career without transmitting science, but what if you just don't like that one guy? :P

Yeah, that would have some repercussions for CommNet.  Though if every vessel is crewed, that would tend to reduce the need for CommNet, since they can all pilot themselves.  The only limitation would involve transmitting science, and that's generally not an urgent gotta-have-it-right-now sort of problem.  Just wait until the ship has LOS to Kerbin, then transmit.

If I picture the sort of impact that this would have on my career, if I played a no-probe-cores one, would be that I'd probably leave the "additional base stations" option turned on, so that Kerbin's contactable from any direction and it doesn't matter which way KSC happens to be facing at any given moment.  (Usually I leave "additional base stations" turned off, in order to give me more of a reason to build comsat networks.)

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I was more specific with my Pilot's union; Probe cores aren't allowed to be in command of engines.

There are quite a few relay satellites in orbit now, but they have been either put into space atop a manned vehicle (those went poorly due to staging issues causing the sat to separate at 60km altitude, but were heroically nose-bumped to orbit) or were assembled by engineers with wrenches after a pilot brought them to the correct orbit.

I'm also using probe cores on bases to provide basic functionality when all the kerbals are busy working in their labs and there's nobody left to open the pod bay doors.

 

Something like this could be accomplished by deleting all the probe cores with Snark's MM idea, but with the sole exception of the Stayputnik.

 

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22 hours ago, suicidejunkie said:

Probe cores aren't allowed to be in command of engines.

Oh, now there's a nice thought.  Would make it easy to have communications relays, etc. while still sticking to the spirit of "it's a manned space program.  I like it!

22 hours ago, suicidejunkie said:

Something like this could be accomplished by deleting all the probe cores with Snark's MM idea, but with the sole exception of the Stayputnik.

A little bit.  Certainly the lack of SAS would put a crimp in a vehicle's style and make it a pain to fly... but I've successfully flown missions to land on the Mun with nothing but a Stayputnik, so it's not quite up to your house rules.

The only way I could see to make the game actually enforce the "no probe cores in charge of engines" behavior would be to write a mod for it-- I don't think this is doable in config alone, it would require actual code.

(I guess if one really wanted to go hardcore, one could make it so that only pilots can operate engines, i.e. non-pilot kerbals can't touch the throttle at all.  Now there's some job security for pilots!)

Hmmm... this is starting to sound like an interesting possible variation for my next career.  Wonder if it's worth the trouble to actually write a mod for it...  Well, in any case, it's probably worth the trouble to at least look at it the next time I'm in front of my KSP computer, to see how big a chore it would be to code.  :)

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Yeah, the quick mod wouldn't be a complete lock, but it would be quite a helpful prod to keep you mindful of the house rule.

 

I had all my first few Mun landings using engineers, since I wanted them to deploy relay probes on the surface, but as below, that didn't go as well hoped.  I also had Bill driving a rover around Minmus deploying a surface relay belt for a bit (only a few dozen kilometers before he completely wrecked it and had to walk the rest of the way).

Pilots would have prevented a LOT of wrecked equipment in my early career, and the Pilots' SAS is absolutely essential for taking the spaceplanes to space currently.

KSP_Not_ABellyLander.png

Edited by suicidejunkie
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4 hours ago, Bill the Kerbal said:

actually, this was the original idea for a relay system, a load of manned relay sats using 40's radio tech.

Not to mention the core premise for a really nifty set of short stories that were eventually published in book form as "Venus Equilateral" -- except their "relay station" was not just manned, but a large-staff space station that also engaged in research (and, of course, story action, else it would have been a pretty boring book).

I'm seeing my space program as similar to Heinlein's early days of space travel, only without the immense nuclear thermal engines he thought (as of ca. 1950) would be the only way to get around the Solar System.  In his world, every ship carried pilots, engineers, and other crew who had actual functions aboard -- and occasionally scientists, if that was what the mission was about.  By the time he got to torch ships, they were small towns inside a hull.

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9 hours ago, Bill the Kerbal said:

actually, this was the original idea for a relay system, a load of manned relay sats using 40's radio tech.

Yeah, I remember reading a short story where all the television broadcasting was done from three huge manned relay satellites. They actually did all their production work on board, actors and everything.

I'm pretty sure that story ended with the dudes manning a new military satellite getting some kind of space dementia and nuking the planet while the people on the relays watched, though, so maybe don't do that if you go for manned relays. :P

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  • 2 months later...

I've been running suicidejunkie's "Pilot's Union" rules in my own career game, and I'm really enjoying the additional challenge.  I also have "Better than starting manned" and Life support mod installed, making this even more challenging! (Lots of planes to start!)

Because of the life support thing, I've decided to run this in two phases.

First phase:  No robot shall be in command of an engine.  Burns made by a robot/probe are ok as long as a member of crew is within physics range at the start of a burn (this is to allow early interplanetary burns without having to take actual crew).  There are two exception -- deorbit burns for discarded stages are ok, so I don't have to delete debris.  Burns beyond Kerbin's immediate influence (i.e. Solar and other planet burns) are permitted as well.

Second phase:  This phase begun after a Kerbal successfully made an EVA in orbit of the Sun (around day 40 in my case).  The rules are slightly relaxed to allow a further exception:  The start of interplanetary burns is also permitted in addition to what was allowed in the first phase.

 

I've done loads - completed the tech tree, sent probes to other planets, have a 900 ton Mun base (8 separate vessels), and have 3 major flotillas waiting for transfer windows in Kerbin orbit.  Really enjoying Pilot's Union so far!

 

 

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Thinking about a mod.

  1. Only a pilot could do anything with engines.  This essentially means that if there isn't s pilot on board, the throttle stays where it is. Or, the engines are disabled.
    1. What happens to a vessel which is running and the pilot leaves it?
  2. What about if an Engineer or a Scientist is on board?
  3. What about RCS thrusters?
  4. What about SAS?
  5. What about a small probe within a certain distance of the pilot?
  6. Mechjeb is unusable unless there is a pilot onboard.
  7. Same with Gravity Turn

These questions need to be answered to be able to design a mod.  Some of them, while the answer is obvious from the discussion above, are asked to make the mod more general (you KNOW someone will be asking for something).

Edited by linuxgurugamer
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I have a slight variation on this theme. I have no unions, and I'm fine with automated controls. But... if there's no Kerbal on board to provide visual feedback I only control ships from map mode, because that's all mission control has at hand.

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48 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

I have a slight variation on this theme. I have no unions, and I'm fine with automated controls. But... if there's no Kerbal on board to provide visual feedback I only control ships from map mode, because that's all mission control has at hand.

Have you tried the Probe Control Room mod?

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2 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Thinking about a mod.

  1. Only a pilot could do anything with engines.  This essentially means that if there isn't s pilot on board, the throttle stays where it is. Or, the engines are disabled.
    1. What happens to a vessel which is running and the pilot leaves it?
  2. What about if an Engineer or a Scientist is on board?
  3. What about RCS thrusters?
  4. What about SAS?
  5. What about a small probe within a certain distance of the pilot?
  6. Mechjeb is unusable unless there is a pilot onboard.
  7. Same with Gravity Turn

These questions need to be answered to be able to design a mod.  Some of them, while the answer is obvious from the discussion above, are asked to make the mod more general (you KNOW someone will be asking for something).

Pilots only is a bit too much (though could be an option within the mod) - allow any crew member to operate the throttle - you've already got SAS restrictions and such for that, and would likely be incompatible with other mods that create new professions.  The fact that people bother to put a probe core on a vessel means it can still hold attitudes (prograde, node, etc.) and SAS could be available there (perhaps you could have a rule that if no probe core and no pilot, nothing is allowed - whereas if there is a probe core any crew member can do burns/operate MechJeb).  For 5, the way I'm running this in my career is that if a crew member is within physics range, the burn is allowed - even if the burn time will mean that the pilot is no longer within physics range at the end of the burn.  Not entirely sure how you'd code for this.  The complication with my career is that I have RoverDude's MKS + Life Support, meaning that any interplanetary vessel kind of needs a minimum of around 30 tons of supplies, habitation space and suchlike.  Not easy to put up SatNets around Moho with this on!

 

 

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On 6/11/2017 at 10:13 AM, bigcalm said:

Pilots only is a bit too much (though could be an option within the mod)...

The option to replace a Pilot with Probecore+anybody else quickly means no pilots.

 

On 6/11/2017 at 7:43 AM, linuxgurugamer said:

Thinking about a mod.

  1. Only a pilot could do anything with engines.  This essentially means that if there isn't s pilot on board, the throttle stays where it is. Or, the engines are disabled.
    1. What happens to a vessel which is running and the pilot leaves it?
  2. What about if an Engineer or a Scientist is on board?
  3. What about RCS thrusters?
  4. What about SAS?
  5. What about a small probe within a certain distance of the pilot?
  6. Mechjeb is unusable unless there is a pilot onboard.
  7. Same with Gravity Turn

These questions need to be answered to be able to design a mod.  Some of them, while the answer is obvious from the discussion above, are asked to make the mod more general (you KNOW someone will be asking for something).

1a) It turns into an unguided missile.  May be useful for sounding rockets, or for making sure a vehicle doesn't crash on your base after bailing out.

Consider the case of separating boosters while they are still running; that should be the way it continues to work.

2) How about a range of negative-star piloting levels? 

-2) Systems control (right click menus) but no steering 

-1) RCS/reaction wheels only

0) Manual control with no SAS as now (0 star unassisted pilot) 

++) Current pilot star levels ...

Possibly +1 category level for every 2 stars on the non-pilot?

3) See above

4) See above

5) External command seats?

6) Yes.  Optionally, Mechjeb could provide a +1 to the category seen in (2).

This would make a scientist who has flagged Minmus and has Mechjeb helping be able to fly with the skill of a zero star unassisted pilot.

7) Makes sense.

 

 

As a related thing, I'd like to see scientists giving the bonus to the ISRU equipment instead of the engineers.  Those engineers are kept very well employed by KIS/KAS and EL instead.

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On 3/15/2017 at 1:26 PM, Bill the Kerbal said:

actually, this was the original idea for a relay system, a load of manned relay sats using 40's radio tech.

During the Apollo program, there was a plan (DoD, not NASA) to build manned spy space stations.  It was canceled for similar reasons.

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