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Space planes break the tech tree


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I decided to do a sort of roleplay on career-hard starting with the idea of what would a space program be like if it started with ideas like the German V1 and Messerschmitt, but never made a V2. That means planes that primarily land in the ocean (since the retractable wheels are mid-tech tree

I have reached a weird point in the tech tree where none of the available nodes are very useful. I could unlock Aerodynamics, but it doesn't really help me. Gives me the J-33 engines, but honestly the J-20s are fine for my spaceplanes and boosterplanes. The LF-800 and external fuel duct are very attractive, but it gives me Oscar-sized tanks without any Oscar sized engines. And why would the player want or need a Rockomax decoupler or adapter before they have the 2.5m parts? Even the description of some of the parts is off. For example:

Quote

Governmental pressure and several lawsuits led Rockomax to finally consider creating an adapter to connect its own parts to that of its competitors. As much as the CEOs hated it, however, it was a resounding success.

The problem is the Rockomax Brand Adapter is offered in a node before any other Rockomax parts, so what are you adapting to your 1.25m parts to, exactly? At least now that I have unlocked the Fuel Systems node I have a use for the Rockmax Adapter. I might actually but access to it now.

The tech tree is pretty much made to force players to follow the sort of rocket-development path we saw on Earth. I'm finding it fascinating just how much changes when you focus on planes vs rockets with capsules.

Some images of the jet-plane based program I'm running:

Spoiler

L45MQpn.png

Ignoring the SRBs, the basic craft is close to 100% recoverable. Shortly after separating, the main craft can achieve a stable orbit. That lets me switch to the booster planes. They come down near the Point of Theriss (https://github.com/kjoenth/Kerbin-map/blob/master/Map names.png). A combination of sats and ocean surface relays let the booster-planes fly back to KSC and make water landings. The spaceplanes come in a few versions--some for tourists, some for sat launching, some for cargo boosting. I haven't upgraded the tracking station, which means no patched conics yet, but it's pretty easy to get to the mun and minmus without nodes. It's harder to dock with things in orbit, but not impossible.

Oh, and why is fuel pumping something you can start doing once you upgrade the RnD building? Fuel transfers feels like it should be something researched in the tech tree.

Playing on hard has given me a _much_ better idea of what feels broken. 900,000 credits to upgrade the R&D building so I can transfer fuel to something I docked with in orbit? That is _a_lot_ of credits on hard, and super difficult to get without grinding through endless tourist transports.

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4 hours ago, tater said:

The tech tree has always been entirely absurd.

Yeah. It's clear that it was grafted on after the fact. I still have hopes that they revise the tree more. At the very least I hope they fix the description/names. Getting the "Swivel" rocket engine first makes sense (since it's easier to control things with the gimbled engine), but it should be renamed so it has a lower # than the LV-T30 and change the description so it doesn't sound like there are other LV engines. If it is first, it is first. (grumble grumble)

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On 4/3/2017 at 10:55 PM, seanth said:

Yeah. It's clear that it was grafted on after the fact. I still have hopes that they revise the tree more. At the very least I hope they fix the description/names. Getting the "Swivel" rocket engine first makes sense (since it's easier to control things with the gimbled engine), but it should be renamed so it has a lower # than the LV-T30 and change the description so it doesn't sound like there are other LV engines. If it is first, it is first. (grumble grumble)

Porkjet's LV-T15 was exactly that.  Are you able to use the part overhaul mod?

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5 hours ago, klesh said:

Porkjet's LV-T15 was exactly that.  Are you able to use the part overhaul mod?

I could, but for this play through I'm sticking with stock parts. I normally play modded, but wanted to try career+hard+spaceplane playthrough

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Well, it's Kerbal Space Program, so the games encourages space exploration rather than atmospheric exploration within Kerbin. You simply can't get enough science if you don't walk outside Kerbalkind's craddle. I don't think that's wrong in itself, although the entire career concept should be rethought (maybe the mission builder can be a step in that direction if it also gives you science, rep and funds for fulfilling the missions).

Also, "hard" isn't "harder", it's "grindier"

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There are mods around that allow you to re-order the tech tree, but yeah: the stock tree is neither realistic nor particularly fun. Ladders, wheels, fins and landing legs should not be advanced technology.

If it were up to me, I'd re-order the tech tree with all of the basic stone-age stuff (ladders, fuel hoses, struts, basic aircraft parts, the ability to change what fuel you put in a tank, etc) right at the start, but with a lot more variety and depth in the science and space station parts.

You should never get to a point where you've "done all the science".

Edited by Wanderfound
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13 minutes ago, Wanderfound said:

There are mods around that allow you to re-order the tech tree, but yeah: the stock tree is neither realistic nor particularly fun. Ladders, wheels, fins and landing legs should not be advanced technology.

If it were up to me, I'd re-order the tech tree with all of the basic stone-age stuff (ladders, fuel hoses, struts, basic aircraft parts, the ability to change what fuel you put in a tank, etc) right at the start, but with a lot more variety and depth in the science and space station parts.

You should never get to a point where you've "done all the science".

Actually, Squad redefined the tech tree as a script some time ago, so you don't need a special mod anymore.  However, for simplicity Module Manager is better than file editing, so a mod is recommended... just not required.  However, even then you still don't need a special 'tech tree' mod, just Module Manager and a text editor.

 

EDIT: Specifically, Nodes are defined in 'GameData\Squad\Resources\TechTree.cfg', and of course the individual part files themselves place the parts in the nodes.

Edited by Alshain
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11 hours ago, Wanderfound said:

There are mods around that allow you to re-order the tech tree, but yeah: the stock tree is neither realistic nor particularly fun. Ladders, wheels, fins and landing legs should not be advanced technology.

If it were up to me, I'd re-order the tech tree with all of the basic stone-age stuff (ladders, fuel hoses, struts, basic aircraft parts, the ability to change what fuel you put in a tank, etc) right at the start, but with a lot more variety and depth in the science and space station parts.

You should never get to a point where you've "done all the science".

I'd put batteries and solar panels within the first two nodes. I just started a new career save and I had to rush to deorbit one of my early ships because it was running out of the meager 50 EC of stored charge in the pod. Even the early panels give you more freedom early on.

As for the parts you list, there is a bit of gameplay perspective on them. Even if we disregard that:

Fuel hoses, as implemented in KSP are actually sci-fi. As for airplane engines, it can be justified as even the subsonic engines need to be reworked to work with Aerozine 50 and atmospheric oxygen instead of regular aviation fuel. The Panther, Whipsplash and Rapier are far more advanced engines which really belong later in the tech tree. Also, advanced spaceplane parts have a 2400°K heat resistance, which is well beyond the regular materials you'd expect for atmospheric flight.

 

BTW, is 2400°K even reasonable? Isn't that resisted only with ablative heat shields? The KSP spaceplane parts can resist 2000°K out melting (or evaporating) indefinitely.

Edited by juanml82
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Tech tree would be broken even without spaceplanes. The branches should be linear and each of them themed. Spaceplanes with spaceplanes, electric with electric, etc.

Edited by Veeltch
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Solar and RTGS flew within a few months of the first people. The tech tree is absurd, really.

It needs a complete redo, but that partially requires more variants for things in the game. 

Tanks at different sizes, then within that, at different dry masses. Lower tech tanks heavier for the same size.

Ditto engines, better Isp, better thrust, better gimbal, lower mass over time, possibly lower cost as well.

All stuff like this, then once on a specific path, it's cheaper to marginally upgrade an existing engine, than to start from scratch. That's why programs advance the way they tend to unless they get huge infusions of cash (and sometimes even then).

Different propellants should be a thing, as well, but those are lines of research. Kerlox (LFO), hydrolox, hypergolics.

Career is trivial, and really needs the player to be put in a position where they think, "I really should have researched the right line of engines, this was a mistake!" (say you started with hydrolox, and have a bunch, but now wish you had a hypergolic stage to use at Jool because of boiloff).

Complexity in what players have to do (design wise) is a GOOD THING.

Failures would help, too.

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