Vanamonde

KSP: Making History Grand Discussion Thread

157 posts in this topic

Just now, kBob said:

That would just alienate those who promised if they bought an early release they would get future DLC for free.  Those of us who didn't and were not made that promise have no reason to be jealous, it's just the way it worked out (and I missed the cutoff by only eight months).  Also there's a lot of this going around and we don't even know how much the DLC will be, if it's really expensive sure I can understand the problem and frustration of not being able to afford it, but what if it's like $5 or $10, I think most of us can save up that much in fairly short time...or wait for a Steam Sale, I often do that if I deem a DLC is a bit overpriced (ok I'm old I've learned patience but I do remember what is was like when I was young and how much slower time went by back then, but still I counsel patience, good things come to he/she who waits).

I see your point about alienating he early supporters, And I now have rethought this and i will say that we need it to be one third price for the veterans. That way they get a large discount, and feel they got something but then the community will not see this as free. 

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14 minutes ago, 322997am said:

 don't do the 2013 veteran thing. Not worth it. 

I couldn't disagree more. Squad explicitly promised that anyone who bought the game before May 1, 2013 would get paid expansions free. That they keep that promise is infinitely more important to me than the fact that I have to pay for DLC and others don't. Even knowing I myself would have to pay for it (bought game in late 2014, not even close), I was very pleased when @Badie assured us that Squad would keep its word and give old timers the expansion for free. Honesty is worth more to me than a few dollars. 

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Just try not to think about the pre-May 2013 people. You bought under terms of service that allow Squad to charge for expansions like a normal game company, period.

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1 hour ago, Hotaru said:

Honesty is worth more to me than a few dollars.

Words to live by.

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5 hours ago, mattinoz said:

There could well be a game changing feature set in this expansion. I mean the following is just a random off the top of my head list of things that have a better than good chance of being needed to really make the pack work, If they are really cover human space exploration to date:-

  1.  Mun missions need a folding rover with some minor crane and construction systems to allow it to fit in the base of the lander.
  2.  Folding parts for various exploration satellites.
  3.  Lots of new science parts with various time requirements
  4.  "Fog of war" mechanic on maps so the player feels like they have a sense of achievement from exploration. 
  5.  Spaceship One and Whiteknight both in the atmosphere and suborbital at the same time.
  6.  Air bags for those throwing yourself at the ground (on Mars) and hoping to fly moments.
  7. Mission planner to me implies some dV targets coming out of the mapping part of those mission plans.
  8. dV targets means some way to check target in craft builder.

If it has those features, I'll take two, please :)

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8 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

Since I didn't mention MMO's, I completely fail to see your point.   You're disagreeing with something I didn't say.
 


From a pedantic point of view, you're correct...  the new model has only really been around for a few years, so you could weasel and say "there is no permanent update model".   Realistically, you're way off base - ongoing upgrades/updates and DLC for the life cycle of a game are steadily becoming far more common.  Games and apps that are "once and done" are steadily becoming the oddballs.

Sorry mate, I presumed thats what you meant by "MOO".

Again, Im getting at stability and a reduction in fixes, content updates Im absolutely fine with, as long as they dont introduce new bugs that require yet more time to get smoothed out.

Im still of the opinion, even though some games might put out DLC a while after first release, that very very long term ongoing development isnt a thing, people move on to other projects, but that is probably a little bit subjective - and even if not, Im still talking bugs and problems, not extra content. My biggest fear is that I will sit down to get really into a long career game, and halfway through there will be a significant update that will bork it in one of several ways. Its not like that hasnt happened many times already. If it sounds like a criticism of Squad or KSP, it isn't. The time it takes is of no matter, I've been on the hook for a long time already. I just want the DLC to be released once and not three or four times over a ten month period.

I think we can agree that we both want KSP to be as good as possible :) 

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On 19.3.2017 at 4:22 AM, Columbia said:

..To think how much more serious and beautiful the game would look if all the parts were up to that quality of modeling..

lets talk again when you try to add something radial to the new apollo lander. i like the design. its top modelling art. but the "standard" landercans allow more customization with not integrated RCS and enough space to ADD everything on it. with the new apollo lander you have to use clippings to be creative :)

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, 322997am said:

Let's just say this, I like new content, but nobody really likes paying for it. But squad has to have their crab so I will pay. No sarcasm. Seriously. Now my concern is associated with a backstory that may be over in a few months. My parents were never helicopter parents except when it comes to money. They take my gift cards that I get for my birthday and buy math textbooks for me. Ok, I don't care I earn a few bucks here and there anyway. But this money is in cash, and steam doesn't like cash. This problem will be solved as I negotiated that I could get a job over the summer and keep half and give half for my private school I got into. Now, I will buy the DLC when I have my own money. Ok, I am one of the kids/teens that have the opportunity to buy this. But many do not. And they know that the ppl who bought it before 2013 get the DLC for free. I understand why this is done, but doing a "veteran" priority will build a 50 ft wall between the old and new, and people who have the DLC vs those who don't. I honestly could see this community dying from this. My solution: don't do the 2013 veteran thing. Not worth it.   Should have read sources.

Couldn't you by a steam gift card/wallet code with your own earned money and load that to your steam account?

Edited by monophonic
Forum bugs.
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8 hours ago, mattinoz said:

There could well be a game changing feature set in this expansion. I mean the following is just a random off the top of my head list of things that have a better than good chance of being needed to really make the pack work, If they are really cover human space exploration to date:-

  1.  Mun missions need a folding rover with some minor crane and construction systems to allow it to fit in the base of the lander.
  2.  Folding parts for various exploration satellites.
  3.  Lots of new science parts with various time requirements
  4.  "Fog of war" mechanic on maps so the player feels like they have a sense of achievement from exploration. 
  5.  Spaceship One and Whiteknight both in the atmosphere and suborbital at the same time.
  6.  Air bags for those throwing yourself at the ground (on Mars) and hoping to fly moments.
  7. Mission planner to me implies some dV targets coming out of the mapping part of those mission plans.
  8. dV targets means some way to check target in craft builder.

You are setting yourself up for a world of disappointment there....

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If somebody else getting something for free makes someone feel "alienated", then they deserve to be alienated. The generosity of Squad, or anyone, is a terrible excuse to feel victimised.

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10 hours ago, KingPhantom said:

lets talk again when you try to add something radial to the new apollo lander. i like the design. its top modelling art. but the "standard" landercans allow more customization with not integrated RCS and enough space to ADD everything on it. with the new apollo lander you have to use clippings to be creative :)

There are plenty of surfaces to slap goodies on there (it has a fairly complex set of colliders),  And it is just a single part... it happens to be one of the more unusual parts though :)

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19 hours ago, 322997am said:

I see your point about alienating he early supporters, And I now have rethought this and i will say that we need it to be one third price for the veterans. That way they get a large discount, and feel they got something but then the community will not see this as free. 

Sorry but that`s not how it works. I was promised I would never have to pay for DLC and Squad are honouring that.

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5 minutes ago, John FX said:

Sorry but that`s not how it works. I was promised I would never have to pay for DLC and Squad are honouring that.

This, exactly.

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Can kerbals actually fit to look out (and down) out those windows on the MEM? 

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18 hours ago, KingPhantom said:

lets talk again when you try to add something radial to the new apollo lander. i like the design. its top modelling art. but the "standard" landercans allow more customization with not integrated RCS and enough space to ADD everything on it. with the new apollo lander you have to use clippings to be creative :)

What? I'm praising the part, and fantasized how good the game would look like if parts were finished in that standard of quality, not appearance and function.

 

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15 hours ago, John FX said:

Sorry but that`s not how it works. I was promised I would never have to pay for DLC and Squad are honouring that.

Indeed, its even a legal obligation. There was a contract between you and Squad. If they broke that contract, then all the people that bought before May 2013 could demand their money back. Somehow I think that would be worse for squad and the community than just giving them the expansion for free.

I had to look when I got KSP, and it was too late. It was by a wider margin than I anticipated. My join date in Nov 2013, but I live in a country which has almost no restrictions on downloading copyrighted software for personal use (distributing it is still illegal, so downloading is fine, uploading is not). I didn't pay until April of 2014.

However, price went up over time as it approached "release" - I hope this expansion is not more than what I paid while it was still in pre-release (roughly 15 USD/Euros).

Another game series I play with an active mod community that has done the expansion thing: Operation Flashpoint/Arma series. 

I remember back when I was still living with my parents... I hated when the expansion to operation flashpoint came out... soon all the cool addons were only compatible with the expansion, and the non expansion server numbers were dwindling. Still, the community and series lived on. I got a lot of enjoyment out of it. The company isn't going to keep working for free forever - of course that was back when one didn't expect continued support for a game, and patch releases were sparse.

You wont live for your parents forever, and the market for games, especially this sort, is far beyond the 5 year age range of 13-18. Then you'll be free to spend your money as you choose.

I mean really... a $15 expansion (assuming thats the price) is basically the cost of eating fast food twice instead of eating at home (or where I live, going out for fast food once rather than eating at home).

 

That said... I'm not sold yet on this expansion. New parts are interesting, but need to compete with free mods, which is why I didn't think an expansion would succeed. It needs to add new features that mods haven't added, or that are integrated into the game in a better way than mods. I'm not sure if this mission editor and scenario pack is good enough - time will tell.

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1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

Indeed, its even a legal obligation. There was a contract between you and Squad. 

Woah woah woah, I doubt that, very much. Even if it was, being based in Mexico, anyone not living in Mexico would have zero recourse anyway, except through the mexican legal system. Steam certainly aint gonna give you a refund.

If you're a lawyer, I of course retract everything.

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There is a contract. It may not be in an extremely formal form, but there is a contract.

http://kerbaldevteam.tumblr.com/post/47730955705/expansions-dlc-and-the-future-of-ksp

The first written promise was vague enough they could probably have gotten out of it, but they willingly conceeded the point and made their promise explicit. "we are including Expansions in what you can expect to get for free if you have already bought the game. Also, for those considering purchasing the game, we will maintain this promise for all purchases made until the end of this month (April, 2013)

Particularly for those that purchased the game between when that statement came out and the end of April 2013, there is a record of a promise of service. followed by a purchase of that service. This would definitely qualify as a contract between the buyer and seller.

If they don't get what they paid for, they can demand a refund from the one that sold it to them, be it steam or squad for those that bought it from the squad store. Mexico does allow class action lawsuits. So if there were... say 100,000 people who had purchased the game during this time for an average of $10 each, thats a $1 million payout + legal expenses. Squad would probably just give a refund rather than get the negative PR and anger a customer base enough that they get a lawyer.

Where the company is based may not matter: particularly with steam/regional distribution. If most people got it through steam, or "transfered" their purchase to steam, then they'd seek the money from Steam, and Steam would seek the money from Squad.

Either way, after having made the statement "we are including Expansions in what you can expect to get for free if you have already bought the game. Also, for those considering purchasing the game, we will maintain this promise for all purchases made until the end of this month (April, 2013)", they can't back out now.

So those of you who may be envious of the "early-adopters" getting the expansion for free: deal with your envy on your own, and don't get mad at Squad for doing something they have to do because of a clarification they made to the "contract" nearly 4 years ago.

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With regard to whether or not DLC parts etc would count as 'stock', I would say no they wouldn't IMHO. 

To me 'stock' is everything included and available in the base game that everyone who buys it gets. Anything and everything else is an optional extra,  whether a free mod, either official or 3rd party, or paid DLC.

The regular version updates are 'stock' because everyone with the game has the option to update to the latest version free of charge as the 'stock' game itself is being upgraded.

Yes it's 'optional' insofar as anyone can obviously choose not to update, but they will still have the option of full access to all its features at any time, should they choose to update to the latest version.

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Posted (edited)

I dont get the obsession with "stockness", are extra parts such an anathema to some people?

I get that a set selection of parts is useful when doing challenges and things, to make it a fair playing field, but "Oh no extra DLC parts wont be stock it will divide the community" sounds like garbage.

"This challenge does not include DLC parts" - problem solved, insomuch as there was one.

Edited by p1t1o

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5 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

I dont get the obsession with "stockness", are extra parts such an anathema to some people?

Some people enjoy sharing craft files with others and mods make that process much harder. In this case the DLC will function as a "mod".

5 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

I get that a set selection of parts is useful when doing challenges and things, to make it a fair playing field, but "Oh no extra DLC parts wont be stock it will divide the community" sounds like garbage.

"This challenge does not include DLC parts" - problem solved, insomuch as there was one.

See above, challenges are not the issue.

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Posted (edited)

@regex hmmm approximately the same thing, and not exactly an insurmountable challenge. As if this is the only game with sharable content, mods and DLC.

Edited by p1t1o

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I hope CKAN will be able to tell whether the DLC is installed, because mod dependencies are going to be a nightmare otherwise.

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4 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

@regex hmmm approximately the same thing, and not exactly an insurmountable challenge. As if this is the only game with sharable content, mods and DLC.

I didn't claim to understand the practice of craft sharing since I have zero desire to use someone else's creation when I enjoy the satisfaction of making my own, but that's a worry to some people.

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On 23/03/2017 at 8:56 PM, cfds said:

You are setting yourself up for a world of disappointment there....

Given everyone is so focused on dollars, yes all signs look bad.

Should be noted I'm an Architect so very use to reality never being as good as potential.

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