How To Have Submarines Work Correctly On KSP.

[Julian.]

All This Requires Is A Physics Update. (And Maybe Some Submarine Parts. The Submarine Parts Are Optional.) This Is... Very Simple... I Don't Even Know Why This Topic Exists Its Just Here Because It Could Help Others.

[Tex]

Perhaps you can elaborate a little? What kinds of updates to KSP's physics are needed?

[Julian.]

The Updates? Just Water Physics That Could Help Submarines Work Correctly And Be Capable Of Going Underwater Without Hours Of Work Attempts.

[qzgy]

What do you mean by "work correctly" Also, it is kinda hard to make submarines in KSP because of super buoyant parts

[Julian.]

The "Work Correctly" Is Just "Have Submarines Capable Of Working Underwater." It Could Help To Make Parts Less Buoyant.

[qzgy]

People have made stock submarines, using ore tanks as ballast....

[Tex]

I see that you're adamant about having submarines work better, but you're not really elaborating. What do you see as needing improvement?

[Razorforce7]

The consensus concerning ksp is that it targets aeronautical and astronautical vessels. Everything else isn't part of what fits in ksp. And theres no arguing about that with me or anybody else so hold your breath.
Because this is the way the devs have chosen ksp to be. There is this mod though (v)

But if you want to do it stock. Get yourself the larger ore tanks. You must fill them with ore in the VAB. This will make it denser then water. You will need alot of them in relation to the other buoyant parts. But it will get you to the ocean floor.

EDIT: Physics update for water? Don't get me wrong as I would like this to. However, a realistic physics element concerning hydrodynamics should involve a dedicated professional team that not only understands these physics but knows how to program them in a game. It would require quite a few scholared professionals on the ksp developers side. And it won't be profitable since it would serve a 0.01% interest for the few dedicated to ship/submarine building. 

But maybe a new title like Kerbal Marine Program is in order.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Razorforce7

[The_Rocketeer]

4 minutes ago, Razorforce7 said:

The consensus concerning ksp is that it targets aeronautical and astronautical vessels. Everything else isn't part of what fits in ksp. And theres no arguing about that with me or anybody else so hold your breath.

Speaking with 4 years of forum experience, I'm aware of no such consensus. If anything I would say consensus is that KSP is correctly played in whatever way you decide to play it. If someone wants to build landtrains, rail locomotives, walking robots, paddleboats or submarines, they can. All those things fit in KSP just fine. Am I right @Overland?

Also, consensus being based on collective opinion, I would say that making convincing arguments in favour of something is exactly the right way to go about changing consensus. More of a problem is changing the direction of development - some absolutely consensual ideas for improvement have been around longer than I have (stock dV readout) and have yet to make an appearance in the stock game.

Make your case @Julian., but don't expect anything to happen even if everyone does agree.

[Razorforce7]

@The_RocketeerOfcourse everyone should play it the way they like it. I build boats myself. And trains seems a fun one I have yet to do.
The general consensus I claim to exist is based on the parts that the developers have thus far modelled. So the more accurate way of putting it is that it is the recorded direction that the developers seem to take.

The existing parts are all airplane or space related parts. That consensus about this subject is different among others is apparently the case. Apparently that is why people do suggestions such as this.
But maybe I shouldn't call it 'general' consensus then, since you apparently don't agree with that.

I'm also open to all other viewpoints.
I just don't think ksp is ever going to model anything besides those 2 categories. Expanding with things unrelated to those categories with a already vast part list seems illogical.

[Alshain]

Submarines should work in KSP physics.  You just don't have the right equipment.  Submarines achieve neutral buoyancy by filling ballast tanks with water, allowing them to dive using the diving planes and forward motion.  However you do not have ballast tanks, so everything floats.

If I'm not mistaken, all you need is a modder to create a ballast tank that can be filled with water on demand.

[steve_v]

5 minutes ago, Alshain said:

If I'm not mistaken, all you need is a modder to create a ballast tank that can be filled with water on demand.

Stock ballast tanks and electric propellers would be nice though, there's something very wrong with jet-engines on a submarine.

[Red Iron Crown]

Suggestions Usually Work Better When They Are Specific. If You Think The Physics Are Inadequate, Tell Us How Exactly And What Adjustments The Model Needs. 

[Julian.]

Well. Technically This Needs The Physics To Be Updated In Order To Successfully Help Others Create Submarines With Ease.

[steve_v]

1 minute ago, Julian. said:

This Needs The Physics To Be Updated

You're still not being specific. Water physics work just fine.

And What's With Capitalising Every Word, Anyway? The Grammar Police Will Get You.

[Red Iron Crown]

3 minutes ago, Julian. said:

Well. Technically This Needs The Physics To Be Updated In Order To Successfully Help Others Create Submarines With Ease.

Updated How? Be Specific, Please. 

[Julian.]

The Updates Are Simple. Just Updates That Could Improve The Ability To Have Submarines Work Under The Water Like They Are Supposed To. If You Don't Really Like My Ideas Then Its Ok.  We All Have Different Opinions. The Updates Are Fixes To The Buoyancy System, Improvements To The Water Physics, And Upgrades To The Interior Of The Water. (Including The Ocean Floor. Just To Add Some Sort Of Improvement.)

1 hour ago, steve_v said:

You're still not being specific. Water physics work just fine.

And What's With Capitalising Every Word, Anyway? The Grammar Police Will Get You.

Bruh... I Just Have A Preference. You Cant Really Effect My Real Life Personality. Also The Grammar Police Is Equal To Grammar pedant's. Just Saying. (I Want My Reputation To Be So Low That I Get Banned From Society...)

[Red Iron Crown]

I'm not saying I'm for or against your proposal, just that I don't understand it as it is so vague. What fixes do you want made to the buoyancy system? What improvements do you think are needed to the water physics? This just reads like "Make water better" without telling us what you feel is wrong with it or how it could be improved. 

[ZooNamedGames]

Yeah you say improvement but don't explain how. The game has undergone alterations to improve the water physics but Squad can't do much with "improve it". What about it? 

Submarines are already a thing. In fact @zekes used to have a stock nuclear submarine back in the day. I've got a submarine myself as well. I feel it's fairly realistic and effective as a submersible. 

The game has a limit on it's realism. For one because it's a space and flight game, but also because of technical limitations. More realistic it is, the greater the strain. 

So when we say elaborate, don't tell us "improve it", improve it... how? How should we change the physics? You mentioned changing part bouyancy? How?

Theres also more to designing submersibles than if it sinks. Their a pressure vessel, that, with any fault in their structure or pressure containment, could implode under the pressure. Not to mention you've got the engines, the propellant for them, the control and movement systems and so much more to it.

So how realistic are we aiming for? We can't understand "improve", but we can understand fixing and correcting something.

[KSK]

1 hour ago, Julian. said:

Bruh... I Just Have A Preference. You Cant Really Effect My Real Life Personality. Also The Grammar Police Is Equal To Grammar pedant's. Just Saying. (I Want My Reputation To Be So Low That I Get Banned From Society...)

No - we can't affect your real life personality. But we can ignore your posts if they're annoying to read. If you want people to pay attention to what you're saying, it helps if you don't put them off with silly writing quirks.

[Tex]

Let's make sure to keep on topic, and see what @Julian. thinks should be specifically updated for the physics to make submarines work better.

[Alshain]

9 hours ago, steve_v said:

Stock ballast tanks and electric propellers would be nice though, there's something very wrong with jet-engines on a submarine.

Those are very specific to that craft.   I meant a general part that can be used with other parts.  You couldn't really make a traditional submarine out of those.

 

[steve_v]

4 minutes ago, Alshain said:

Those are very specific to that craft.   I meant a general part that can be used with other parts.  You couldn't really make a traditional submarine out of those.

Perhaps not, but you can certainly install USITools and add ModuleBallast to something else, like a repurposed fuel tank. Just add a dash of ModuleManager and season to taste.

Edited April 22, 2017 by steve_v

[Alshain]

2 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Perhaps not, but you can certainly install USITools and add ModuleBallast to something else, like a repurposed fuel tank. Just add a dash of ModuleManager and season to taste.

You and I could, yes.  But not everyone could, I get the distinct impression that creating mods is outside the scope of the OP's abilities.

[steve_v]

19 minutes ago, Alshain said:

I get the distinct impression that creating mods is outside the scope of the OP's abilities.

Cloning a part with ModuleManager is hardly "creating a mod", at least in my book. I have a bunch of patches like this already.
Here you go, something like this should do it:

//Ballast Tank
+PART[Mk1FuselageStructural]:NEEDS[000_USITools]
{
    @name = Mk1BallastTank
    @category = Utility
    @title = Basic ballast tank
    @description = This is totally not a repurposed fuselage section... it's a submarine part :P
    @mass = 1.0
    @crashTolerance = 32
    %maxPressure = 12000
    
    RESOURCE
    {
	name = IntakeLqd
	amount = 0
	maxAmount = 3000
    }

    RESOURCE
    {
	name = Lead
	amount = 500
	maxAmount = 500
	isVisible = true
    }

    MODULE
    {
	name = ModuleBallast
	ResourceName = IntakeLqd
    }

    MODULE
    {
	name = ModuleFuelJettison
    }
}

I might even get around to testing it some time

Edited April 22, 2017 by steve_v
F***K this editor is horrible.