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KSP Weekly: Without labor nothing prospers


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10 hours ago, TriggerAu said:

To my knowledge there is no plan to enforce part failure on people globally and if its in a mission then the creator will have decided to do that; if the part failure makes the mission suck then people wont play it and its a moot point is my take on it. I can see it being useful in many game modes, but cant give you definitive ins and outs at this point.

I think that triggerAU answered that fairly well.

Note: bold added for emphasis.

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5 hours ago, Frozen_Heart said:

Surely people could just, you know, switch part failures on or off, therefore not having to be affected by them?

 

Like I plan on doing. Not going to refuse to play the game for something that will never effect me.

I don't think anyone said anything about refusing the play the game, unless I missed it.  I just won't buy the expansion cause I'm paying money for a worse gaming experience.   That would have been true of many features in game, had they made ISRU and expansion I wouldn't have paid for that either.  It doesn't makes sense to buy something you don't want.  I'll still be playing KSP.

Edited by Alshain
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On 29/04/2017 at 3:47 AM, JPLRepo said:

  But why not all of them? and why wouldn't you want catastrophic failures? Isn't that what KSP is all about? Learning from catastrophic failures?

I will take this part as a joke or something. Really don't want to believe a developer would say something like this.

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46 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

I will take this part as a joke or something. Really don't want to believe a developer would say something like this.

It's his 'stralian sense of humour yes, pretty sure devs are allowed to joke :)

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24 minutes ago, TriggerAu said:

It's his 'stralian sense of humour yes, pretty sure devs are allowed to joke :)

When everything on your continent is trying to kill you on a daily basis, one is permitted a touch of humor to make it through the day... :wink:

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One thing Squad is pretty good at is recognizing that everybody plays this game differently- just look at the global settings and game options per new save. A feature like part failure will be optional if incorporated into the main game modes, no worries.

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2 hours ago, TriggerAu said:

It's his 'stralian sense of humour yes, pretty sure devs are allowed to joke :)

@Veeltch and all. Yep. Sorry. Was just taking care of some drop bears. I'll try to remember to add the joking emoticon. :sticktongue:

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I realize that the Making History Expansion with the Mission Builder is still quite a while from release, but there is one question I haven't seen asked, and subsequently answered yet: What is the plan for sharing missions?

There is currently no infrastructure built into the game to handle sharing or aquiring any assets or data from peers, so will something of a sort be implemented in-game along with the mission builder?

I think the best implementation of the mission builder system would allow the user to not only build the missions in-game but also test, post/upload, browse, search, add/download, and play them all in-game. Is this a possibility at all in the current design? If not, what is the currently intended process for one user to build a mission and another to fly it?

I suspect that this would need to be implemented completely in-game at least as part of the expansion if there was ever to be hope of building and sharing missions on consoles. I realize saying such a thing implies a PC/console parity that has yet to exist. Furthermore, I can't recall any specific mentions that Squad intends for consoles to have the exact same experience as the PC (within the reasonable fixed hardware limits of the consoles, of course). So, maybe this in-game mission sharing is not a thing that will be needed if consoles won't receive the expansion.

If I've missed discussion of how missions will be shared or discussions on whether or not the consoles will get the expansion, I do apologize and ask someone to kindly point me in the right direction.

I can imagine it is very much not insignificant effort to get this working in-game, but I can also imagine the possibilities of building it into the base game to share things like craft files...

Edited by Mako
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21 minutes ago, Mako said:

I realize that the Making History Expansion with the Mission Builder is still quite a while from release, but there is one question I haven't seen asked, and subsequently answered yet: What is the plan for sharing missions?

There is currently no infrastructure built into the game to handle sharing or aquiring any assets or data from peers, so will something of a sort be implemented in-game along with the mission builder?

I think the best implementation of the mission builder system would be allow the user to not only build the missions in-game but also test, post/upload, browse, search, add/download, and play them all in-game. Is this a possibility at all in the current design? If not, what is the currently intended process for one user to build a mission and another to fly it?

I suspect that this would need to be implemented completely in-game as part of the expansion if there was ever to be hope of building and sharing missions on consoles. I realize saying such a thing implies a PC/console parity that has yet to exist. Furthermore, I can't recall any specific mentions that Squad intends for consoles to have the exact same experience as the PC (within the reasonable fixed hardware limits of the consoles). So, maybe this in-game mission sharing is not a thing that will be needed if consoles won't receive the expansion.

If I've missed discussion of how missions will be shared or discussions on whether or not the consoles will get the expansion, I do apologize and ask someone to kindly point me in the right direction.

I can imagine it is very much not insignificant effort to get this working in-game, but I can also imagine the possibilities of building it into the base game and to share things like craft files...

Interesting ... download a mission complete with the needed craft files ... I'd love that!

But it should be optional for the builder ... use his craft or use your own. Or he decides to build the mission for both options. You get completely different results and its fascinating material to talk about.

In a way this was already happening at the start of this year when @Triop made the Dakar '17 challenge, uploading a save with flags planted (checkpoints) around the mountain range near KSC. So in a way it was there except the internal link with the game because they're working on it right now.

@JPLRepo ... regarding the Dakar race, we had a discussion about terrain detail levels. Racing around on high is a totally different (and much harder) experience than on low. Now imagine someone builds a mission where the goal is to rescue a crashed Mün lander on the sharp edge of a crater. And then the sharp edge doesn't exist with terrain on low. Maybe something to think about. Would it be possible for a mission creator to enforce certain settings and would they be automatically applied when loading the mission (with a warning)? Not requesting an answer, NDA, I understand. Just you guys think about it if not already.

 

Edited by Azimech
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10 minutes ago, Azimech said:

Interesting ... download a mission complete with the needed craft files ... I'd love that!

But it should be optional for the builder ... use his craft or use your own. Or he decides to build the mission for both options. You get completely different results and its fascinating material to talk about.

In a way this was already happening at the start of this year when @Triop made the Dakar '17 challenge, uploading a save with flags planted (checkpoints) around the mountain range near KSC. So in a way it was there except the internal link with the game because they're working on it right now.

@JPLRepo ... regarding the Dakar race, we had a discussion about terrain detail levels. Racing around on high is a totally different (and much harder) experience than on low. Now imagine someone builds a mission where the goal is to rescue a crashed Mün lander on the sharp edge of a crater. And then the sharp edge doesn't exist with terrain on low. Maybe something to think about. Would it be possible for a mission creator to enforce certain settings and would they be automatically applied when loading the mission (with a warning)? Not requesting an answer, NDA, I understand. Just you guys think about it if not already.

 

Yup. So a lot of these things are being considered in the design plans, and some maybe not so much, but Are on the drawing boards. And yeah.. I can't say much more than that at the present. But thanks for the valuable input, keep it coming. 

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37 minutes ago, Mako said:

I think the best implementation of the mission builder system would allow the user to not only build the missions in-game but also test, post/upload, browse, search, add/download, and play them all in-game. Is this a possibility at all in the current design? If not, what is the currently intended process for one user to build a mission and another to fly it?

I'll add two words that may split the community: "Steam Workshop." Cantab's Cities Skylines collab thread uses it, and it already does all of this pretty well. You can browse and search outside the game, then click Subscribe when you find something you like, and after the automatic download completes, it's available when you next run the game. All of the hassle around unpacking and placing files in the right folders is handled for you. Uploads are an additional option from the main menu, just pick a save game, agree to a (one-time) EULA, and up it goes.

Obviously SQUAD has non-Steam customers, so it's not a complete solution in that regard. But if the option could be made available to Steam customers, it would be a great way to spread excitement about the expansion.

Edited by HebaruSan
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2 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

I'll add two words that may split the community: "Steam Workshop." Cantab's Cities Skylines collab thread uses it, and it already does all of this pretty well. You can browse and search outside the game, then click Subscribe when you find something you like, and after the automatic download completes, it's available when you next run the game. All of the hassle around unpacking and placing files in the right folders is handled for you. Uploads are an additional option from the main menu, just pick a save game, agree to a EULA, and up it goes.

Obviously SQUAD has non-Steam customers, so it's not a complete solution in that regard. But if the option could be made available to Steam customers, it would be a great way to spread excitement about the expansion.

If resources exist for such an endeavour, a server running somewhere you can reach from the main menu, complete with mini-forum and chat option, would open this up for all users, no matter which platform. Good point!

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42 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

I'll add two words that may split the community: "Steam Workshop."

I don't have a steam account, I don't want a steam account, and I refuse to install the steam client on anything I own.
Guess that counts me as on the other side of the "split".

If anything in the DLC (or future expansions) is exclusively tied to steam, that's me gone for good as a customer.

40 minutes ago, Azimech said:

If resources exist for such an endeavour, a server running somewhere you can reach from the main menu, complete with mini-forum and chat option, would open this up for all users, no matter which platform.

Much better.
Then again, as Squad apparently can't handle running an update server, I have little hope for this.

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3 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Much better.
Then again, as Squad apparently can't handle running an update server, I have little hope for this.

Or ... we could choose the mental option that they'll surprise us. I believe they can and will make it so.

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5 minutes ago, Azimech said:

Or ... we could choose the mental option that they'll surprise us. I believe they can and will make it so.

“Hope for the Best. Expect the worst. Life is a play. We're unrehearsed.”


― Mel Brooks

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On 2017-4-28 at 11:38 PM, StrandedonEarth said:

This sounds like you're looking for feedback on this....

I'm just trying to put it into context, and it all depends on the failure mode. Is it limited to the Mission Builder? Pre-programmed failures as part of the mission are perfectly understandable, but random failures can get annoying when there's no reason for it. A reasonable way of implementing random failures would be based on the history of the part and the flight and/or usage hours logged. A just-unlocked or experimental part would be more likely to fail. as would a part that's been in space for years. A part model that has been used on many mission before should never fail when launching a brand-new rocket on a new mission.If you just want to see your rocket blow up, add a self-destruct to the right-click menu!

Learning from catastrophic failures in KSP is learning about bad designs or piloting errors. By catastrophic failures I mean things that result in loss-of-mission and/or loss-of-crew and one would not be able to recover from it. Complete loss of the only engine on the ship would be LOM at the very least, but losing one engine in a cluster would be a pretty realistic experience, and the mission could go on. Parachute failure? Oh right, time to bail out and use those nifty new EVA 'chutes. Which reminds me, do kerbals always have EVA chutes, or would they need to be added?

@JPLRepo Adding to this, I thing this is a good way to give more meaning to those 'Test part contract' (assuming they would would stiil be in the expansion, if there are contracts at all). Every new part have some reliability that can be increased by use or test. But part failures are only a thing if the player can't revert flight, other wise it's just a lost of time. 

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8 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

I'll add two words that may split the community: "Steam Workshop." Cantab's Cities Skylines collab thread uses it, and it already does all of this pretty well. You can browse and search outside the game, then click Subscribe when you find something you like, and after the automatic download completes, it's available when you next run the game. All of the hassle around unpacking and placing files in the right folders is handled for you. Uploads are an additional option from the main menu, just pick a save game, agree to a (one-time) EULA, and up it goes.

Obviously SQUAD has non-Steam customers, so it's not a complete solution in that regard. But if the option could be made available to Steam customers, it would be a great way to spread excitement about the expansion.

If they're going to do it through Steam Workshop then they might as well forget about Steam Workshop and just do it through their "official" mod repository, Curse. Why do work twice, once in a way only part of your audience can benefit from, and agan in a way that all of your audience, including Steam users, can use?

That's why I suggest building it completely into the game. Then no one, steam user or otherwise, would ever have to go anywhere at all to get missions for the expansion.

@Azimech Actually, I hadn't considered distributing required craft files for missions, but that makes sense, too. My original suggestion was for the base game to be updated to allow for both expansion and non-expansion users to share craft files from within the game, and the expansion could use that infrastructure to make missions available as well. 

I realize this is a lot of work and the faster and easier way is to have a place external to the game where players upload and download missions for the expansion. I don't say that as a dismissive judgement; the amount of work involved is incredibly different between the two methods. I mention all this again because I believe keeping everything in-game is the best solution for players.

I suspect this is entirely outside what Squad is trying to accomplish with the Making History Expansion, but I'd love to be wrong.

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10 hours ago, steve_v said:

I don't have a steam account, I don't want a steam account, and I refuse to install the steam client on anything I own.
Guess that counts me as on the other side of the "split".

If anything in the DLC (or future expansions) is exclusively tied to steam, that's me gone for good as a customer.

Yup, by no means am I suggesting that the Steam Workshop be the only means of exchanging content. Just that it would be nice if it was included among the options, for those who can access it.

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It's not looking as though it's going to matter for me, but I certainly hope it wouldn't be hard-coded to use a download service provided from Squad.  I'd rather share files through e-mail than put up with Squad's inability to keep a server running that isn't overloaded.

It needs to be something that can be used universally.  SpaceDock should be able to host them if they wanted to.

Edited by Alshain
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On 4/29/2017 at 2:25 PM, Azimech said:

Please explain.

Once the Kraken whispered into my ear ... "Strive to become a better engineer".

That's not at all what happened to me. It slammed my helmeted head into the console over and over while screaming in my ear, "YOU WILL BECOME A BETTER ENGINEER DAMMIT! Or I will BEAT YOU TO DEATH with my bare TENTACLES!!!"

And left me a sobbing wreck in the creaking remains of my ship...

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