juanml82

Keep the planets as a telescope image until a ship visits them (fog of discovery?)

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It's not my idea at all and has been talked several times on the forums, but I found this today

And it's just too good to not be stock. It adds immersion, it adds a reason to visit those planets (how many players start a career and consider the game finished when they unlock the full tech tree?) and it gives a sense of accomplishment beyond planting a flag, taking a selfie and (maybe) doing some science experiments for extra points

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Requested this years ago. Didn't happen then, not likely to happen now or ever. If it is possible the only way you will get this is with a mod now IMO

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13 hours ago, juanml82 said:

It's not my idea at all and has been talked several times on the forums, but I found this today

And it's just too good to not be stock. It adds immersion, it adds a reason to visit those planets (how many players start a career and consider the game finished when they unlock the full tech tree?) and it gives a sense of accomplishment beyond planting a flag, taking a selfie and (maybe) doing some science experiments for extra points

The Research bodies mod does something like that.

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I suggested this a long while back like @John FX. (only some pics still work)

would have been a great addition in my opinion. various terrain scanners, telescopes, cameras, ect would have added allot the feeling of discovery and progress.

sadly I think the ship has sailed (launched).

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Yeah, maybe. But its kind of useless since most of us already know what these planets look like, dropping the fun quite a bit.

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Posted (edited)

On 5/20/2017 at 3:27 PM, NSEP said:

Yeah, maybe. But its kind of useless since most of us already know what these planets look like, dropping the fun quite a bit.

It's not "kind of" useless, it is useless. It's a feature that will get used once and then complained about. There's a Minecraft mod that works much the same way, Thaumcraft 4, which has a minigame to unlock features. Once you've gone through the entire research thing (hell, even before you're halfway through it) it becomes an incredibly tiring experience when you start a new playthrough. With this feature in KSP I'd just go to the planet. This adds nothing to the immersion.

Edited by regex
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Such a fog of war system would be awesome, but only with the following added to it:

1. The solar system is randomly generated, so repeat players don;t already know about them.

2. Data can be gained via instruments on spacecraft that not only unlocks appropriate resolution images of worlds, but also unlocks data about the planets useful in spaceflight.

3. That useful data includes tools to use it (a trajectory planner for atmospheres that works only to the extent you have data on that world's atmosphere, the more data, the better the predictions.

Then fog of war is interesting, and maintains a sense of exploration.

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For those interested my ResearchBodies mod does 2 already, has its own telescope for discovery contracts and is integrated with my TST mod as well as DMagics science mod. 

Might look at some possible integration with TWP which would be something along the lines of point 3.

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Posted (edited)

36 minutes ago, JPLRepo said:

For those interested my ResearchBodies mod does 2 already, has its own telescope for discovery contracts and is integrated with my TST mod as well as DMagics science mod. 

Might look at some possible integration with TWP which would be something along the lines of point 3.

I looked at that a long time ago when it first came out but I didn't use it because it had this strange and pointless mechanic where you just click a button a dozen times to make something happen.  It was basically a KSP dice game.  Did that ever get changed or is that still how it behaves?

Edited by Alshain

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3 minutes ago, Alshain said:

I looked at that a long time ago when it first came out but I didn't use it because it had this strange and pointless mechanic where you just click a button a dozen times to make something happen.  It was basically a KSP dice game.  Did that ever get changed or is that still how it behaves?

Yes it's in the process of being changed... you can still click.. but there are also contracts now (i've struggled to find the time to complete it). But I will after 1.3.

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Really you'd want something scansat like, that would generate the KSP map view at the resolution observed, over the areas covered. A flyby might only make a low res map of part of Duna as it goes by, an impactor probe one area down to a very low-altitude view. The scan level determines the effective altitude of the map zoom on the fly, etc.

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On 22/5/2017 at 0:37 AM, tater said:

Really you'd want something scansat like, that would generate the KSP map view at the resolution observed, over the areas covered. A flyby might only make a low res map of part of Duna as it goes by, an impactor probe one area down to a very low-altitude view. The scan level determines the effective altitude of the map zoom on the fly, etc.

But for nearby bodies like Duna and Eve ground based telescopes should already display the major characteristics. The Olympus Mons and the Great Red Spot, for instance, were identified in the 19th century, more than a 100 years before astronauts landed on the Moon

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4 minutes ago, juanml82 said:

But for nearby bodies like Duna and Eve ground based telescopes should already display the major characteristics. The Olympus Mons and the Great Red Spot, for instance, were identified in the 19th century, more than a 100 years before astronauts landed on the Moon

This is a 1956 Mars image from Earth from the Mt Wilson Observatory:

Mars-history-telescope-view-mount-wilson

There might have been a couple better images by the time Mariner did the first flyby, but they were not much better. Any modern amateur scope could take better images of Mars than this.

This is a modern image:

20140517_2204UTC_Mars_RGB_rel.jpg

 

This is a Mariner 4 image:

m04_11e.gif

Vastly better than anything ever taken from Earth.

Viking image:

vo1_890a68.gif

 

BTW, Olympus Mons was postiviely IDed by the Mariner 4 spacecraft. Until then, it was observed as a bright spot during dust storms and was rightfully judged to be higher altitude, but no one actually had the slightest clue what it looked like until spacecraft.

 

Many of the Jovian moons were discovered by spacecraft. The specifics of the martian atmosphere were determined via spacecraft. Virtually nothing was known about Venus before the Soviet's put probes there.

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On 22/05/2017 at 0:08 PM, tater said:

Such a fog of war system would be awesome, but only with the following added to it:

1. The solar system is randomly generated, so repeat players don;t already know about them.

2. Data can be gained via instruments on spacecraft that not only unlocks appropriate resolution images of worlds, but also unlocks data about the planets useful in spaceflight.

3. That useful data includes tools to use it (a trajectory planner for atmospheres that works only to the extent you have data on that world's atmosphere, the more data, the better the predictions.

Then fog of war is interesting, and maintains a sense of exploration.

 

If systems were generated it strikes me that the new save game start up would be excessively long to generate vast levels of detail. If there was a fog of war a lot of that detail would never be unlocked.

So why not use one to help the other?

The instruments don't just reveal hidden data but create by observation. That would give a reason for instruments to take some but not alot of time to work. Also the stock data for each planet that can be selected at random could be really low.

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Yeah, probes with photographic equipment would form actual maps, and adjust the zoom level based upon resolution and distance.

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I really like this idea!

Just turn off this feature for sandbox as it could get tiresome for the player who just wants mess around. Definitely for career mode though.

 

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On 24/05/2017 at 6:45 AM, tater said:

Yeah, probes with photographic equipment would form actual maps, and adjust the zoom level based upon resolution and distance.

exactly, then use the images you gather to plan future surface missions - assuming that mission planning tools were also added (sadly, this is also unlikely at this stage).

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On 5/23/2017 at 10:45 PM, tater said:

Yeah, probes with photographic equipment would form actual maps, and adjust the zoom level based upon resolution and distance.

So what happens if I think that's boring gameplay and just send Kerbals directly? Do I get a massive lag spike when I enter SOI or do I land on Planet Fuzz?

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Posted (edited)

51 minutes ago, regex said:

So what happens if I think that's boring gameplay and just send Kerbals directly? Do I get a massive lag spike when I enter SOI or do I land on Planet Fuzz?

I'd assume that just like every other feature that's been added or modified since about 0.90, there'd be a toggle for it in options.

EDIT: But if you want the "boring gameplay" it's not that hard (compared to the rest of this request) to make Kerbals count as the best photographic equipment available.

Personally, I like the idea of needing to take better cameras (or Kerbals) to places but I don't want to have to actively do things. The maps should make themselves. Like how Kerbals take science samples themselves.*

*Note Kerbals do not actually take science samples themselves. They just SHOULD.

Edited by 5thHorseman

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Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I'd assume that just like every other feature that's been added or modified since about 0.90, there'd be a toggle for it in options.

That ... wasn't really what the question was about...

I generally assume this sort of feature is tied into the science system because it seems to be a fairly easy and realistic way to introduce "actual science" into the game, a common theme in "fog of war" threads. Therefore, my reasoning is that it won't have a toggle because the player can gain science points from it. Naturally it would be disabled in sandbox mode. But that still leaves the question of lag spikes while terrain is generated {following that part of the conversation) when I toss all the extra satellite/probe launches that I really don't care to do and just send Kerbals, the best photographic equipment available, directly, completely ignoring the fuzz.

I do definitely agree that the science should just do itself, all the right-clicking gets really old.

Edited by regex

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, regex said:

So what happens if I think that's boring gameplay and just send Kerbals directly? Do I get a massive lag spike when I enter SOI or do I land on Planet Fuzz?

Good question.

It honestly depends on what tech feel we assume they are at. If we assume 1960s, then they get the best map they had BEFORE they got there (because film). Obviously they would still see whatever you can see from the craft itself. All they would lose is the planning aspect in terms of aiming for a landing spot. I suppose there could be a small bonus for being there to represent what would eb hard to characterize in game (the ability of kerbals to memorize ground features from simple observation). At higher tech (perhaps related to tree node opened) camera would be digital, and they could map in real time.

They'd always have the view from the ship, though.

Ideally, planetary detail would increase to the point that it actually mattered. Ie: clutter that you could crash on. One possible thing to unlock via mapping---would be a map that shows flat spots in false color. It would be less accurate with photographic mapping, and perhaps eventually a radar mapper is a thing. At lower resolution, it could highlight areas within an x-degree slope compared to dead flat, but it would slop the area adding X pixels, and at higher res, it perhaps grades the color to completely flat (sort of like the way biomes are represented). So you could do a retro burn for landing, and place the landing point within a flat area. This would obviously make more sense if the SAS wasn't ridiculously over powered.

Edited by tater

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The game can give people raw data... a map, dv readouts, etc, but from a gameplay perspective, it could also role-play out the space program and provide the player with reduced data, and "expertise" of the members of the KSC staff.

The raw data would be a map at a resolution (the alt where the moon stops zooming in) based on the camera system). Expertise would be showing the player the flat bits, or analyzing the surface science data to show the player resource areas for ISRU, etc. The game would need to add tools for this. So generic map mode, then a button to switch it to a biome (geome!) viewer, and perhaps a landing site selector marking flat areas, etc. This gives the player useful information based on "science" in a way that actually represents the kind of teamwork in a space program.

If it's not instant, so much the better, frankly. Want to land a base? Survey the planet first to unlock the overlays that show you the best sites. Mods could use these hooks for added realism as well.

If the scatter caused crashes, then you'd at least need a little piloting to land, lol. Perhaps the scatter could be more or less dense depending on "biome" or other factors, making the "flat spots" determined by actually looking for them actually more meaningful. Since such scanning is automated after a fashion, the only "tedium" is placing the appropriate craft.

Hey, STATIONS could reduce the data in the kerbal world. A reason for them around worlds, or station parts (lab) on deep space craft (and scientists to do the data reduction).

 

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Posted (edited)

So long as none of this prevents or punishes the player from just up and doing something I have no problem with it. KSP is not well suited for "destination gating" because delta-V is delta-V; telling me I can't land somewhere when I clearly can is terrible gameplay.

Edited by regex

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This would obviously only be for career, and would require a compete redo of that, anyway.

 

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8 hours ago, regex said:

That ... wasn't really what the question was about...

That was more a response to the gameplay being described as "boring." I quickly realized that it was not enough of a response, hence the edit.

4 hours ago, regex said:

So long as none of this prevents or punishes the player from just up and doing something I have no problem with it.

Of course this isn't my proposal, but IMO you are right. Not having enough information to land your ship should not prevent you from trying. If you're comfortable not being 100% sure of the exact elevation of your landing site (say, within 1km) as you're entering the atmosphere or doing your slowdown burn, and not 100% sure of the slope of the land or any debris/rocks/etc at the actual landing site until you're doing your final approach (Apollo 11 anyone?), then this fog of war/scanning/whatever aspect should not really cause you any trouble.

But yeah, there should be no popup that says "Sorry! You haven't scanned Mun in high enough detail to slow down to this velocity in orbit."

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