Kerbal Space Program update 1.3 Grand Discussion thread.

[wiskeytangofoxtrot3]

I can play 1.3 because of the crash an burning from my mods, tried to reinstall 1.2.2 from steam and now it crashes, assistance please I miss my KSP space station I build.

[Red Iron Crown]

8 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

Meanwhile, your doctor's office is still using "mods" from 10+ years and 6+ versions ago because a company I can't name follows rules about preserving backwards compatibility. And that software has had way more lines of code changed than KSP since then. It's not impossible to do, it's just a matter of whether you decide to do it.

In fairness, that software's main feature, the whole reason people buy it, is to run those "mods"; the software is pretty much pointless without them. The "modders" are large businesses, as are the customers who rely on those "mods" to make money. These customers will not buy new versions of the software if their required "mods" stop working. And the software company controls the entirety of the software they're selling.

KSP isn't like that, mod support is secondary to improving the core game (as it must be), plus as often as not an update to the game brings a point release of Unity that requires at least a recompile of plugin mods. Modders are hobbyists (though some of them do pro-level work), and no one's livelihood is affected if a mod stops working for a week or two. Squad is not being paid directly by their existing customers for new versions, thus those versions have to focus on increasing the appeal to new customers rather than maintaining backward compatibility with add ons used by a minority of the playerbase. It's apples to oranges.

The solution is the same as it's always been: If you need your mods then don't update the game until your mods are ready for it. That's the duty you take on when you mod your game, and it is not right or fair to expect anyone else to do it for you. Squad has done more than enough to make this as painless as possible, by keeping the previous version available for those who seem unable to prevent updating modded installs, by making prerelease versions available to modders to help them be ready for release day, by keeping the changes required to mods as small as possible, by documenting the relevant changes for modders, and by making the game so moddable in the first place.

I have very little patience and even less pity for players who complain the mods they use stop working after an update. It's expected and necessary to keep the game moving forward, and it's easy to prevent your game from being affected until you decide you're ready to update. If someone isn't willing to take on the responsibility of managing their install then frankly they have no business modding their game, IMO.

[White Owl]

2 hours ago, Bornholio said:

And it defaults to....   /stupidSmileOn

Autohide!  This has always been the wrong answer and I suspect along with throttle at 50%-->100% is among the first changes anyone makes when setting up.

Nope. I set my default throttle to zero. But all snark aside... 50% has always been a really bad compromise, guaranteed to please the fewest number of people. Sometimes I suspect it was done this way specifically to prompt users to learn how to change their own damn options.

Every update, even before adding any mods at all, I reset all my graphics settings, audio settings, all keybindings (my controls are so far from stock, I imagine an outsider would wonder if they were for the same game), autohide navball off, patched conics mode 0, patch limit 6, 24 hour time, camera wobble off, throttle to zero... probably a few other things I can't remember off the top of my head. Next, among the first mods installed are options to make precision control default on, and get rid of that ridiculous default camera that rolls 90 degrees when you reach orbit. With that all done, I consider the base game to be configured correctly, so it's time to look at mods.

[TiktaalikDreaming]

56 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

In fairness, that software's main feature, the whole reason people buy it, is to run those "mods"; the software is pretty much pointless without them. The "modders" are large businesses, as are the customers who rely on those "mods" to make money. These customers will not buy new versions of the software if their required "mods" stop working. And the software company controls the entirety of the software they're selling.

KSP isn't like that, mod support is secondary to improving the core game (as it must be), plus as often as not an update to the game brings a point release of Unity that requires at least a recompile of plugin mods. Modders are hobbyists (though some of them do pro-level work), and no one's livelihood is affected if a mod stops working for a week or two. Squad is not being paid directly by their existing customers for new versions, thus those versions have to focus on increasing the appeal to new customers rather than maintaining backward compatibility with add ons used by a minority of the playerbase. It's apples to oranges.

The solution is the same as it's always been: If you need your mods then don't update the game until your mods are ready for it. That's the duty you take on when you mod your game, and it is not right or fair to expect anyone else to do it for you. Squad has done more than enough to make this as painless as possible, by keeping the previous version available for those who seem unable to prevent updating modded installs, by making prerelease versions available to modders to help them be ready for release day, by keeping the changes required to mods as small as possible, by documenting the relevant changes for modders, and by making the game so moddable in the first place.

I have very little patience and even less pity for players who complain the mods they use stop working after an update. It's expected and necessary to keep the game moving forward, and it's easy to prevent your game from being affected until you decide you're ready to update. If someone isn't willing to take on the responsibility of managing their install then frankly they have no business modding their game, IMO.

I started reading that out of context and thought, "Wot now???"   Always worth reading a whole message, in context of what it's responding to, before leaping to confusions.

In short, I agree.

[HebaruSan]

On 5/26/2017 at 10:42 PM, Red Iron Crown said:

I have very little patience and even less pity for players who complain the mods they use stop working after an update.

My concerns are more along the lines of

1. Extra work for modders
2. The notorious friction between modders and users requesting updates
3. Disappearance of restrictively licensed mods long-term if their maintainers go away
4. Extra opportunities for CKAN metadata errors (e.g., right now people are installing a version of MechJeb that will crash 1.3)
5. The days-long forum spam about "The new release crashes on startup"
6. An error-prone environment for new users who just want to click ▶ PLAY and go and have not yet learned the lessons we take for granted about updates
7. Any real crashes in stock are masked by all the false positives

I personally have no problem managing multiple modded installs going back to 0.23.5, and my Steam install has nothing but PartOverhauls and a symbolic link to the folder where I build my own mod for testing.

On 5/26/2017 at 10:42 PM, Red Iron Crown said:

It's apples to oranges.

Economically, sure. Technically, it's an apple and an apple. Change a public API and code that uses it will break, keep it the same and that code will continue to work. That's why I keep bringing up problems specific to this apple, not "We should do this because otherwise our customers will fall behind on their accounts receivable."

Edited May 29, 2017 by HebaruSan

[TriggerAu]

5 hours ago, Bornholio said:

And it defaults to....   /stupidSmileOn

Autohide!  This has always been the wrong answer and I suspect along with throttle at 50%-->100% is among the first changes anyone makes when setting up.

Yes, but that wasn't the question, just trying to help people

With respect to defaults it does what the designer said it should default to from feedback, etc, which in this case is the original behavior - its persists in the settings per upgrade etc so I've only had to change it once back when the setting was introduced in the copy I play meself. If the default was changed the other way there would most likely be the same discussion for the people who prefer the other way - thats why theres a persistent setting for it.

Throttle setting I'm not a fan of 50% either, and I do the same thing - set it once and my settings survive upgrades

 

[LoSBoL]

3 hours ago, Red Iron Crown said:

The solution is the same as it's always been: If you need your mods then don't update the game until your mods are ready for it. 

Good advice, If you weren't using an platform to distribute your content which autoupdates by itself.

Quote

That's the duty you take on when you mod your game, and it is not right or fair to expect anyone else to do it for you. Squad has done more than enough to make this as painless as possible, by keeping the previous version available for those who seem unable to prevent updating modded installs, by making prerelease versions available to modders to help them be ready for release day, by keeping the changes required to mods as small as possible, by documenting the relevant changes for modders, and by making the game so moddable in the first place.

By emphasizing on the users duties and resposibilities in advance by dropping a note in communications. Oh no, that didn't happen...
As a Facilities Manager I know you shouldn't take for granted that your customers know and act on their responsibilities, ever.

And you don't emphasize on it once, you do it every time a customer's experience can severly be effected or broken. That's taking good ownership of your customers.
It makes the difference in getting a 4.5 or an 8 in your yearly customer research survey.

Quote

I have very little patience and even less pity for players who complain the mods they use stop working after an update. It's expected and necessary to keep the game moving forward, and it's easy to prevent your game from being affected until you decide you're ready to update. If someone isn't willing to take on the responsibility of managing their install then frankly they have no business modding their game, IMO.

I have very little patience or pity for players that complain about broken mods as well, just as long as you've warned them to expect this in advance. No matter how 'expected' or 'common knowledge'it feels to you, you shouldn't think that customers act on their responsibilities, no matter how faulty the customer may be.

Telling customers that have broken games that it was their own responsibility they have a broken game, although 100% true, will only be perceived as a massive kick in the butt. That's not constructive at all, it doesn't help in any way. It will only make the customer feel worse about the issue's they have.

From today's weekly...

Quote

Also, it turns out a lot of people are modding the same copy that Steam is managing as well, and the update is breaking mods and making the game crash.

Ouch, that's a major recognition that they've made a major blunder in marketing 101, not knowing how your customers use your own product...


Please take this post as feedback and not just another rant. My game isn't broken, I did the research.

Edited May 27, 2017 by LoSBoL
adding sentence from today's weekly

[Overland]

Updated ksp

 

Loaded KSP...

Crash...

Updated modulemanager to current version

Crash

Removed my old legacy 0.25 horns and diesel engine

 

Crash

Checked im running 64 bit

Crash

Revert to 1.22 - thank gaming god gabe and steam

No crash

Reinstall my train parts

Diesel locomotive idling on runway happily

 

I Drive trains

Im over the hype train

Until I can sort out why 1.3 crashes

No love from me for 1.3

*hugs 44 class diesel landtrain locomotive tightly*

Its ok...ill keep that nasty update away from you 4432

Edited May 27, 2017 by Overland

[Adamthescientist]

Hey, does anyone know how to change the language? My friend somehow changed it to japanese or chinese

[Temeter]

2 hours ago, TriggerAu said:

If the default was changed the other way there would most likely be the same discussion for the people who prefer the other way - thats why theres a persistent setting for it.

Which are about three people who don't understand the game

I mean really, people launching a rocket with 50% thrust are doing it wrong, and the game shouldn't teach people false lessons. Having it at 50 implies there is a reason to launch that way, and there isn't outside of grossly overengineered rockets.

Same with the autohide. You naturally go into map-view to check your orbit, and you need that hud element to check throttle and attitude. There is no launch where you want it to stay hidden, outside of mechjeb/engineer launches.

Or upgrades not getting applied in sandbox mode with the default settings. Pointless when you got all other high end tech.

 

All of those settings default make no sense at all, they were always dumb quirks.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Temeter

[Carraux]

11 hours ago, Laie said:

Just btw, what is "pressure-fed" in german?

I would take "druckgespeist".

[Temeter]

17 minutes ago, Carraux said:

I would take "druckgespeist".

I've also seen "druckgefördert". Sounds weird, though.

[Morog]

Small tip for all who have trouble with forced updates, just copy the folder ...\Steam\SteamApps\common\Kerbal Space Program somewhere else, and start it from there. Even if there is an update you will still have your copy, and as there is no DRM you can still use it. Also use a copy to try out instable modcombinations, if it does not work just delete the copy and try again.

Nexts steps are to add more Boosters, and then mod it till it breaks.

 

The only bad thing about this update is that they still didn't readd the ability to shut down wheels by action groups, and the extendable radiators are still off center.

[Aelfhe1m]

2 hours ago, Adamthescientist said:

Hey, does anyone know how to change the language? My friend somehow changed it to japanese or chinese

In Steam right click on KSP and select properties then go to the language tab.

After you change a language Steam will then download the localised files for that language. If this doesn't seem to be happening then you can go to the "local files" tab and try verifying integrity.

[White Owl]

2 hours ago, Temeter said:

Same with the autohide. You naturally go into map-view to check your orbit, and you need that hud element to check throttle and attitude. There is no launch where you want it to stay hidden, outside of mechjeb/engineer launches...

All of those settings default make no sense at all, they were always dumb quirks.

Very long ago, the reasoning given for not displaying staging info in map view was that the lead designers didn't want people to be able to fly an entire mission from map view. They considered that the wrong way to play KSP. I don't know why they thought it was wrong, but that reasoning is at the root of many design choices that seem strange from the user's perspective.

I didn't understand KSP's camera rolling 90 degrees when you reach orbit until I played Orbiter, the original space simulator from which KSP was born. In Orbiter, the default camera view is tilted over so the Earth is on one side of the screen. The creators are/were dedicated Orbinauts; they got their start modding Orbiter and flight sims. Therefore KSP's camera imitates Orbiter. And Orbiter unmodded doesn't have a delta-V display either. That's the real reason KSP unmodded still doesn't have one.

Personally, I'd love to see an option for a split screen kind of view. See your vehicle and surroundings on the left half of the screen -- in whatever orientation you like -- and display the map on the right half. Put the navball and any other instruments or displays anywhere on the screen you like. Or since so many of us have multiple monitors nowadays, put the flight view on one monitor and the map on another. That would be extremely cool.

[Xwood4000]

On 5/26/2017 at 1:40 AM, RocketBlam said:

As I recall, there were supposed to be some new parts in this update too, weren't there?

Anyway, nice to see this patch go live. Now the mod devs can get busy making all my favorite mods work again!

The sentinel telescope from the asteroid day mod is new at least. I don't know of any other new parts.

[Jammer-TD]

14 hours ago, TiktaalikDreaming said:

Anything that has a plugin will need the mod author to recompile.  1.2.9 was available for a long time, so most modders will know what needs to be done, but for the plugins to work they'll need compiling while linked to the 1.3 release.  Just search for *.dll in GameData, to get a list of incompatible mods.  Then any mod that depended on those (eg module manager dependencies etc).  There's no point individually listing them.

well not exactly true.. although it maybe that a .dll will cause issues. several with dll do work and a few (tasier,ampyear) complain but function.

so there is no definitive listing to a dll causing the crashes. listing the ones that fail can help other users that is why I added to the list

[GDJ]

On 2017-05-25 at 10:11 PM, bewing said:

https://support.apple.com/kb/PH25443?locale=en_US&viewlocale=en_US

OSX has some guardian software that prevents untrusted apps from running. And things downloaded off the internet are untrusted, unless they've got a valid trusted digital certificate, AFAIK. Which KSP got recently.

What's the name of the Certificate? So far nothing I've tried on my end seems to be working. It's like the certificate doesn't exist.

[tater]

Right-click and open it? (MacOS)

I had no issue with 1.3.

[GDJ]

20 minutes ago, tater said:

Right-click and open it? (MacOS)

I had no issue with 1.3.

Yeah, tried that too. Dead as a stick.
Thanks for the tip anyhow.

[Jimbodiah]

I'l check back when 1.3.1 or 1.3.2 is released.

[tater]

I'm still on Yosemite, however.

[monstah]

11 hours ago, White Owl said:

Sometimes I suspect it was done this way specifically to prompt users to learn how to change their own damn options.

(...)

Next, among the first mods installed are options to make precision control default on, and get rid of that ridiculous default camera that rolls 90 degrees when you reach orbit.

Heh, seems to me you've solved the riddle  

Which mods are these? I want those settings too!

[GDJ]

1 hour ago, tater said:

I'm still on Yosemite, however.

Sierra.

Yeah seems like I had less problems when I was running Yosemite too. Sierra is getting as paranoid as Windows 10.

[Diogenes]

Where do you switch languages?