KSP Acquired by Take-Two Interactive

[LoSBoL]

As this game is all about green little men, I'd really like to hear what the wises green man known to mankind has to say

So Yoda, what do you think of all this shizzle?

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in this community”

Any idea what will happen? 

“Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future..”

Any tips?

 "Calm you shall keep and carry on you must, Yes, HMMMM"

Ok thanks man, let the force be with you

 

[Eskandare]

32 minutes ago, Xeiki said:

Hehe, rant time

 

"...walk the line of making more money per user [while not] negatively impact[ing] the user experience" = get away with as much an increase in prices/microtransactions as they can, while still making a net gain in profits, even if they lose some customers (meaing you, the current audience). This also means more "mainstreaming" of the game. Mass-Market compability. And that means removing features that may inconvenience users or turn away potential customers.* I am not sure what would get cut - but I can never imagine beforehand.

Let me explain with a seemingly unrelated example: The Elder Scrolls.

Lets start with TES II: Daggerfall. Came out in 1996. Visionary game, to date the largest landmass of any open world game. Mostly randomly generated content though, kinda like No Mans Sky, really, but apparently not so excrementsty. Built around the D&D Role Playing System. Minimal Graphics (of course), and intended for a specific audience, namely Pen&Paper players who want to play something on the PC as well. A niche product, but still reasonably successfull. Introduced most of the background story to the games, and garnered some Mass-Market appeal.

Next came the much more well known TES III: Morrowind. Came out in 2002, and change a whole lot of things. Everything is handcrafted now, graphics are at the forefront of their time, the background story is hugely expanded, the game world itself is strange and unfamiliar, even compared to the previous games. Many things are streamlined: Less skills, not able to buy houses anymore, far fewer factions, map significantly smaller (like ... 1% the size of Daggerfall), easier controls, etc. But many things stay the same: Combat is still based on dice-rolls, as are most skill checks. Character creation stays pretty complex, learning curve is still high. You are still required to read and understand what is said to you (no voiced dialogue). Garners huge mass market appeal and praise from ciritcs and players alike.

Now fast forward to 2011 and Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. Game-world-size is still the same, or even slightely less (depends on your metric). Graphics got a huge upgrade. Dialogue options got reduced massively, thanks to fully voiced characters. Character Creation is simplified (to the extreme, some might say). A third of the skills is axed, as are classes, attributes, meaningful background information (200 years have passed since the last game, yet there are almost no new books, for example), and first and foremost: Everything is streamlined. You are not required to read - just follow the pointer. You don't need to explore anymore, everything gets marked on your map beforehand. Equipment slots on your character are down from 15 to 9, the first thing you are introduced to is the fast travel menu, weapons don't degrade anymore, potionmaking can not fail, etc. etc. There are comprehensive lists out there. Oh, and it was developed with consoles in mind, so the UI is utter garbage as well.

 

So, what has all this meaningless banter to do with KSP? Well, thats really simple. When Bethesda Softworks, who develop Elder Scrolls to this day, started out, they had a vision, a goal: To create the Pen&Paper experience for the PC. But over the years, something changed, and that was that they were acquired by ZeniMax Media due to financial troubles. Now they got cash, allright, and they still could develop their game, but they also had to deliver. To create a game that wouldn't sell would be a serious concern. Create two in a row that don't sell, and you are out. Forever. Mind you, they at least still own the IP-Rights to the franchise. So they did the only thing they could: They changed their target audience. And naturally, they targeted the biggest audience they could. And that was not the Pen&Paper crowd. It was the casual, instant-gratification-but-zero-attention-span crowd. Granted, that process took some time, but it happened. Just look at Fallout 4, their latest and greatest. And the same thing will, without fail, happen to KSP. You all who proclaim "We are the community", are the target audience for the game that was originally envisioned. So while the practically guaranteed KSP-2 may still please you (larger budget, much more polished, more comfortable to use, but basically the same game, with some features missing), KSP-3 will not be your game anymore. Because you are not the target audience, and TakeTwo wants to make money. Of course, they are a buisiness. They are not evil, they just do what is best for buisiness. And while you, or we, the current core community, is very vocal, because we care about the game - we are still very few. Lets say, a few tenthousands. KSP sold what, 2 million kopies? Drop of water on a hot stone. We just don't have the financial power to make the developers and publishers do what we want, not anymore at least, with a big publisher behind it all.

And please, don't buy into that "KSP development remains independent from TakeTwo" talk. It can't be, since T2 owns the property now, and they decide what to fund. Oh, and another point. Yes, ElderScrolls is extremely modable, and mod friendly. Some even go so far as to say that the base game is purposefully bad, because "Mods will fix it". But mods can't fix everything. Let's say, for example, the Aeromodel is not modable in a future KSP release. Out the window go all the better athmosphere or realism mods. Or that you can't add planets anymore - because those are a paid feature of an expansion pack. The possibilities for limitations are endless. And you have to realize, that it does not matter to TakeTwo what kind of game KSP is, just how well it sells. If it were a tree growing simulator, where you just watch trees grow in real time, but half the planets population buys this - T2 does not care - even if the vocal minority is begging for features like "Let us choose which trees to grow!!" and the old guard is whining all day about missing features.

So no, in the long term, I don't like this at all, because I can see where it is going already. Maybe I am wrong, I sure do hope so. Maybe there is enough of a niche-market, like there is for the Paradox Grand Strategy Titles, which still make a profit, mainly due to very pricey add-ons. Europa Universalis with all addons costs about 150$ right now. Maybe TakeTwo is going that route. Or they focus on the "fun" and "child friendly" aspects of the game: Plushy Kerbals with big eyes, they are so cute, after all. Then it becomes the next Spore.

 

Well, I am done, lets just hope for the best.

 

*There is one well known and financially successful exception to this rule, which is the Dark Souls franchise, which is entirely built around high difficulty and a steep lerning curve. I am excluding multiplayer games that are built solely for competitive play here.

Well written rant. With that being said, I am sad to see that my kids will not be learning rocket science with me, as I would not want them to learn a dumbed down sequel that I would guess would be more sci-fi then science, zero features, and not allow modding which allows us to learn more about game design then some of these so-called profit making schools. Once again big business kills progress. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Eskandare

[regex]

8 minutes ago, Eskandare said:

Well written rant. With that being said, I am sad to see that my kids will not be learning rocket science with me, as I would not want them to learn a dumbed down sequel that I would guess would be more sci-fi then science, zero features, and not allow modding which allows us to learn more about game design then some of these so-called profit making schools. Once again big business kills progress. 

You are a case study in why that game won't be made. KSP is a wildly popular IP and watering down the main product will not result in greater profits. I, for one, wouldn't buy that game either, but I doubt I'll have to because TTI knows what sells the KSP IP (if they don't know what sells it they're idiots for buying it).

Edited June 2, 2017 by regex

[razark]

This thread has grown quite long, and needs more power.

 

Scotty!  Set the reactors to "Over"!

[KSK]

Just now, razark said:

This thread has grown quite long, and needs more power.

 

Scotty!  Set the reactors to "Over"!

Ah'm given her all she's got Cap'n! She cannae take any more!

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

On 5/31/2017 at 2:40 PM, Overland said:

(And hopefully they kill off autostrut!)

2

How dare you.

[Core]

1 hour ago, Xeiki said:

The possibilities for limitations are endless.

The limitations are unlimited!

 

Anyway, let's hope this new change works the way I want it to.

[Eskandare]

41 minutes ago, regex said:

You are a case study in why that game won't be made. KSP is a wildly popular IP and watering down the main product will not result in greater profits. If a company wants to maximize the profit of their IP they'll stick to what made the IP popular in the first place.

I, for one, wouldn't buy that game either, but I doubt I'll have to because TTI knows what sells the KSP IP (if the don't know what sells it they're idiots for buying it).

I certainly hope you're right, but being one that has dealt with corporate management, logic is thrown out the window and is replaced with a twisted logic (logical fallacies) that suits their wants, or what they think they want. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Eskandare

[Xeiki]

24 minutes ago, regex said:

You are a case study in why that game won't be made. KSP is a wildly popular IP and watering down the main product will not result in greater profits. I, for one, wouldn't buy that game either, but I doubt I'll have to because TTI knows what sells the KSP IP (if they don't know what sells it they're idiots for buying it).

If that was true, Elder Scrolls would have gained skills per game, not lost them since Daggerfall, after all, that would be the opposite of watering down. As I said, this descision is not made with you or me in mind. It is guided towards the greatest potential crowd - and that is still, incidentally, kids (or, casual gamers, if you like). Look at Star Wars for example - it is marketed almost exclusively at children and teens. Why do you think we got the Ewoks, for crying out loud. And what is the most downloaded KSP mod ever? Mechjeb - which (if it works) flies your spaceship far better than most of us could ever fly it. Granted, I use it too - mostly for transfer windows and when I'm roleplaying some kind of unmanned program - but the feature in itself, if implemented in stock, kills a huge element of replayability and delayed gratification. Because if a feature is there - people WILL use it. It gives instant gratification. No tedious learning of orbital mechanics, just punch in your desired target, voila, you are already there, minus the wait time. And if you fail, it wasn't even your fault - mechjeb sucks! I think that appeals to more people than "Ok, here is your formula to calculate transfer windows, everything else you have to find out for yourself".

 

@Vanamonde: No, no hysteria, at least from me. I haven't played KSP for a long time, after 1000 hours I have done everything I have the will to put energy into. I reallo don't care that much. I just like to talk.

[Vanamonde]

Some posts have been removed from this thread for being off-topic. 

Which sucks, because I started it. 

[regex]

3 minutes ago, Xeiki said:

If that was true, Elder Scrolls would have gained skills per game, not lost them since Daggerfall, after all, that would be the opposite of watering down.

The Elder Scrolls games have gotten progressively better, at least in terms of the base game mechanics. In Daggerfall it was advantageous to create ridiculous builds where you ran around in a circle in a tavern room hopping like a bunny and casting a minimum-cost composite spell in order to level up. That's terrible gameplay. The core gameplay mechanic, skill usage increases as you use it, remains. If the mechanics are simplified that does not automatically imply a lack of depth, It can also imply a lack of (potentially needless) detail.

3 minutes ago, Xeiki said:

As I said, this descision is not made with you or me in mind. It is guided towards the greatest potential crowd - and that is still, incidentally, kids (or, casual gamers, if you like).

KSP is played by lots of kids. Parents buy it with the expectation that they can enjoy it with their kids. Parents like me introduce it to their kids. If the quality or content is suspect, the product doesn't get sold. I prefer that my daughter play games that encourage creativity and that may teach her something in the process (I have no hopes of Minecraft teaching her anything at the moment, but it certainly is creative). If a new KSP were released that didn't boast the current one's scientific accuracy (or, at least, the nods towards) I wouldn't bother with it, I'd buy something else.

That's the problem with this argument, this is a known IP that has expectations. If those expectations aren't met, the product doesn't sell. Spin-offs are one thing, the flagship product, though, must follow a successful formula.

You're basically claiming that Microsoft should have completely watered down and ruined Minecraft when they have done nothing of the sort. They didn't buy an IP for some $3billion with the expectation that they'd turn around a winning formula, they kept offering exactly what Mojang offered before and simply added to it.

3 minutes ago, Xeiki said:

I think that appeals to more people than "Ok, here is your formula to calculate transfer windows, everything else you have to find out for yourself".

And yet for some reason KSP has sold a shedload of copies without even a delta-V calculator.

[HebaruSan]

7 minutes ago, regex said:

(I have no hopes of Minecraft teaching her anything at the moment, but it certainly is creative)

What about how to calculate area and volume and multiples of 64?

[sarbian]

26 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Some posts have been removed from this thread for being off-topic. 

Which sucks, because I started it. 

[Azimech]

1 hour ago, Xeiki said:

Hehe, rant time

 

"...walk the line of making more money per user [while not] negatively impact[ing] the user experience" = get away with as much an increase in prices/microtransactions as they can, while still making a net gain in profits, even if they lose some customers (meaing you, the current audience). This also means more "mainstreaming" of the game. Mass-Market compability. And that means removing features that may inconvenience users or turn away potential customers.* I am not sure what would get cut - but I can never imagine beforehand.

Let me explain with a seemingly unrelated example: The Elder Scrolls.

Lets start with TES II: Daggerfall. Came out in 1996. Visionary game, to date the largest landmass of any open world game. Mostly randomly generated content though, kinda like No Mans Sky, really, but apparently not so excrementsty. Built around the D&D Role Playing System. Minimal Graphics (of course), and intended for a specific audience, namely Pen&Paper players who want to play something on the PC as well. A niche product, but still reasonably successfull. Introduced most of the background story to the games, and garnered some Mass-Market appeal.

Next came the much more well known TES III: Morrowind. Came out in 2002, and change a whole lot of things. Everything is handcrafted now, graphics are at the forefront of their time, the background story is hugely expanded, the game world itself is strange and unfamiliar, even compared to the previous games. Many things are streamlined: Less skills, not able to buy houses anymore, far fewer factions, map significantly smaller (like ... 1% the size of Daggerfall), easier controls, etc. But many things stay the same: Combat is still based on dice-rolls, as are most skill checks. Character creation stays pretty complex, learning curve is still high. You are still required to read and understand what is said to you (no voiced dialogue). Garners huge mass market appeal and praise from ciritcs and players alike.

Now fast forward to 2011 and Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. Game-world-size is still the same, or even slightely less (depends on your metric). Graphics got a huge upgrade. Dialogue options got reduced massively, thanks to fully voiced characters. Character Creation is simplified (to the extreme, some might say). A third of the skills is axed, as are classes, attributes, meaningful background information (200 years have passed since the last game, yet there are almost no new books, for example), and first and foremost: Everything is streamlined. You are not required to read - just follow the pointer. You don't need to explore anymore, everything gets marked on your map beforehand. Equipment slots on your character are down from 15 to 9, the first thing you are introduced to is the fast travel menu, weapons don't degrade anymore, potionmaking can not fail, etc. etc. There are comprehensive lists out there. Oh, and it was developed with consoles in mind, so the UI is utter garbage as well.

 

So, what has all this meaningless banter to do with KSP? Well, thats really simple. When Bethesda Softworks, who develop Elder Scrolls to this day, started out, they had a vision, a goal: To create the Pen&Paper experience for the PC. But over the years, something changed, and that was that they were acquired by ZeniMax Media due to financial troubles. Now they got cash, allright, and they still could develop their game, but they also had to deliver. To create a game that wouldn't sell would be a serious concern. Create two in a row that don't sell, and you are out. Forever. Mind you, they at least still own the IP-Rights to the franchise. So they did the only thing they could: They changed their target audience. And naturally, they targeted the biggest audience they could. And that was not the Pen&Paper crowd. It was the casual, instant-gratification-but-zero-attention-span crowd. Granted, that process took some time, but it happened. Just look at Fallout 4, their latest and greatest. And the same thing will, without fail, happen to KSP. You all who proclaim "We are the community", are the target audience for the game that was originally envisioned. So while the practically guaranteed KSP-2 may still please you (larger budget, much more polished, more comfortable to use, but basically the same game, with some features missing), KSP-3 will not be your game anymore. Because you are not the target audience, and TakeTwo wants to make money. Of course, they are a buisiness. They are not evil, they just do what is best for buisiness. And while you, or we, the current core community, is very vocal, because we care about the game - we are still very few. Lets say, a few tenthousands. KSP sold what, 2 million kopies? Drop of water on a hot stone. We just don't have the financial power to make the developers and publishers do what we want, not anymore at least, with a big publisher behind it all.

And please, don't buy into that "KSP development remains independent from TakeTwo" talk. It can't be, since T2 owns the property now, and they decide what to fund. Oh, and another point. Yes, ElderScrolls is extremely modable, and mod friendly. Some even go so far as to say that the base game is purposefully bad, because "Mods will fix it". But mods can't fix everything. Let's say, for example, the Aeromodel is not modable in a future KSP release. Out the window go all the better athmosphere or realism mods. Or that you can't add planets anymore - because those are a paid feature of an expansion pack. The possibilities for limitations are endless. And you have to realize, that it does not matter to TakeTwo what kind of game KSP is, just how well it sells. If it were a tree growing simulator, where you just watch trees grow in real time, but half the planets population buys this - T2 does not care - even if the vocal minority is begging for features like "Let us choose which trees to grow!!" and the old guard is whining all day about missing features.

So no, in the long term, I don't like this at all, because I can see where it is going already. Maybe I am wrong, I sure do hope so. Maybe there is enough of a niche-market, like there is for the Paradox Grand Strategy Titles, which still make a profit, mainly due to very pricey add-ons. Europa Universalis with all addons costs about 150$ right now. Maybe TakeTwo is going that route. Or they focus on the "fun" and "child friendly" aspects of the game: Plushy Kerbals with big eyes, they are so cute, after all. Then it becomes the next Spore.

 

Well, I am done, lets just hope for the best.

 

*There is one well known and financially successful exception to this rule, which is the Dark Souls franchise, which is entirely built around high difficulty and a steep lerning curve. I am excluding multiplayer games that are built solely for competitive play here.

@UomoCapra you might want to send this to T2 with a comment: KSP proves there is a growing market for games with the most realistic physics available together with a fantastic editor, the creation of craft and extreme modability. It would be unwise to reduce the set of features but instead there could be separate modules intended for different types of gameplay - RPG, racing, combat, strategy etc.

This is an opinion. If anyone has something to say about this, find your keyboard. It's probably somewhere under your nose.

44 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Some posts have been removed from this thread for being off-topic. 

Which sucks, because I started it. 

Were they funny? Sometimes off-topic isn't that bad, right?

[Kerbart]

1 hour ago, KSK said:

Ah'm given her all she's got Cap'n! She cannae take any more!

But for $5 you can buy some fresh dilithium crystals!

 

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Firaxis with their hands on Kerbals.. *passes out in melodramatic awe at the thought*.

[toadtal]

I hope you guys can keep up the good work!

[Alshain]

I think some of you guys are overreacting.  Yes, Take 2 is in charge, and not Squad, I think I've made my thoughts clear on that.  But that doesn't mean it's going to be thrown to DLC and Microtransaction hell right away.

[55delta]

Hmm...if we assume that all future developments from Take Two will only be marketing decisions, then I wouldn't worry about a 'striped-down, watered-down' KSP in the future. But Take Two might have (my speculation) bought KSP for the Kerbals. What does that mean? It means they might want to sell more Kerbals, and they have more money to do just that.

It's up to the community to decide if that's a good, or a bad thing.

[Virtualgenius]

@Xeiki Totally agree with everything you said being a part of this community let us have a voice and sometimes Squad would listen when the masses where not happy under Take Two they will dictate and not listen at all in the interest of profits I see this as a bad day for KSP

[Kerbart]

17 minutes ago, Virtualgenius said:

@Xeiki Totally agree with everything you said being a part of this community let us have a voice and sometimes Squad would listen when the masses where not happy under Take Two they will dictate and not listen at all in the interest of profits I see this as a bad day for KSP

That's a contradiction.

If they are interested in profits they will listen to the community. That's where the money is, after all.

And before you consider profits evil—do you think KSP would have gotten to its current state if it was loss giving? That it's been developed out of pure altruism for the community? To be honest I'm more comfortable with ownership by a company that as a business has "games" than in ownership by a marketing company whose owners stated that they're considering re-investing the profits not in the game, but rather in high-stake gambling ventures like producing a movie.

[StupidAndy]

what I don't get is why they didn't say anything hinting about this earlier...

[The Moose In Your House]

1 hour ago, 55delta said:

 Bought KSP for the Kerbals. What does that mean? It means they might want to sell more Kerbals, and they have more money to do just that.

.

I'm confused what you mean by "kerbals". 

Edited June 3, 2017 by The Moose In Your House

[Kerbart]

9 minutes ago, The Moose In Your House said:

I'm confused what you mean by "kerbals". 

They're the little green dudes you put in your spacecraft. You'll see them when you EVA them.

Kerbal Train Simulator, Kerbal Kombat Ships, Kerbal Kar Racing. The Kerbals (just Kerbals living their lives. It sounds lame but I'm sure you can turn it into a successful game), and the list goes on. That's what's really meant with "buying it for the Kerbals."

[The Moose In Your House]

Just now, Kerbart said:

They're the little green dudes you put in your spacecraft. You'll see them when you EVA them.

Kerbal Train Simulator, Kerbal Kombat Ships, Kerbal Kar Racing. The Kerbals (just Kerbals living their lives. It sounds lame but I'm sure you can turn it into a successful game), and the list goes on. That's what's really meant with "buying it for the Kerbals."

I know, he's talking about selling kerbals or something.