Outerra + KSP?

[felcas]

Just an idea, I imagine this is very complex but would be F$%^^$% GREAT if we had an upgrade from SQUAD or even a MOD to substitute the planets with procedure generated planets like Outerra.

What you think?

http://www.outerra.com/

https://www.google.com.br/search?q=OUTERRA&num=100&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjD5KKB66DUAhXJkJAKHdBzC9cQ_AUICygC&biw=1680&bih=920

 

[Green Baron]

Have a look at this project: http://proland.inrialpes.fr/

The source code is online on github.

That would be a nice idea, but I assume that this cannot be realized with a game engine because of lack of performance and storage issues. A planet like earth needs 20GB (compressed) just for the surface data. A solar system would bust a pc's capabilities.

Naive thoughts on this: since proland and ork are based on opengl which apparently is not developed farther any more, let's start with a render framework based on newer technology (vulkan). Then terrain generation and storage, generation of surface elements, level of detail control, physics based shading (probably the most tedious part), etc. After that a physics framework (peanuts these days :-)) and a nice gui for player interactions.

But i am not a programmer :-)

Edited June 3, 2017 by Green Baron

[felcas]

13 hours ago, Green Baron said:

Have a look at this project: http://proland.inrialpes.fr/

The source code is online on github.

That would be a nice idea, but I assume that this cannot be realized with a game engine because of lack of performance and storage issues. A planet like earth needs 20GB (compressed) just for the surface data. A solar system would bust a pc's capabilities.

Naive thoughts on this: since proland and ork are based on opengl which apparently is not developed farther any more, let's start with a render framework based on newer technology (vulkan). Then terrain generation and storage, generation of surface elements, level of detail control, physics based shading (probably the most tedious part), etc. After that a physics framework (peanuts these days :-)) and a nice gui for player interactions.

But i am not a programmer :-)

I guess Outerra is newer then Proland. But I am not saying Squad or modders have to use this or that, I am only pointing a direction. I also know about another PGW named Infinity.

https://www.inovaestudios.com/

I don't think performace is the problem, as you pointed, Proland only require an old obsolete GTX260. And I am running Outerra at 45 FPS with just an also old AMD R9 280. By the way if you are interested you can download demo.

20GB is not THAT big, there are lots of games today that are even bigger then that. People download them all the time on Steam.

BUT Outerra comes with a very basic set of details. Once you install it you and start moving around it download the data on demand. It takes less then 5 minutes on my 1mb excrementsty internet conection, people with much better connection should get the data in 1 or 2 minutes. If you are in space the software can calculate where you will land and can start downloading before you even need it. For all the rest, it will use the basedata that comes with the game, which is suficient to render awesome orbital images. In case there is a problem with the connection, the software can just go along the basedata and display simple stuff like we are already used to with KSP.

Personally for the sake of evolving digital culture (games and not only games), I think, the game community including mainly developers, for example X-Plane, KSP, Flight Simulator, Arma, Ship Simulator, Google, CMANO, and much much others should meet up and exchange idea on Procedura Generate World and decide for the best model or define the specifications for one future PGW that can be used for all and define one global standard, this way people around the world could help built a digital representation of the entire world and anyone could use that database to generate a world for its software. For example, I could look for Digital Elevation Models around my city, the best I can find and apply them to the database and then create 3D contents, for the buildings houses, etc. But you could buy X-Plane or KSP and while flying over my city or making a re-entry you would see my house or just land on my roof, because I made this update.

 

This guy is doing just the opposite.

He is making a KSP inside Outerra.

 

https://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=3062.0

Edited June 3, 2017 by felcas

[NSEP]

If this can somehow be exported into height and texture maps like space engine, we could have a new RSS mod (that costs you like 500GB). Its something for the future if gaming, not now yet.

And i think Outerra uses Google Earth maps i think.

[felcas]

6 hours ago, NSEP said:

If this can somehow be exported into height and texture maps like space engine, we could have a new RSS mod (that costs you like 500GB). Its something for the future if gaming, not now yet.

And i think Outerra uses Google Earth maps i think.

I don't think that is possible for the same reason I don't think Outerra uses Google Earth.

From what I read and understood, Outerra is PGW or Procedural Generated World. It does not work in the same way we are used to see around, for example in Flight sims or even KSP. It is based on biomes, from those set of biomes there are specific characteristics that the computer is instructed to use to populate that biome. For example, for a desert biome, the computer must use a specific texture pattern, geometric objects like rocks or pebbles and specific vegetation. This biomes can be automatically set for example at a certain floor altitude to a seiling altitude, and then another and another. On the coast you can have beaches specifications between tropicals with more beaches near the equator and more rocky coast towards the  tropics, going toward the extremes would make beaches appear less to a point where it would find ice, but none of that is manually determined all is automatically done by parameters. That is why today PGW look great at high altitudes but sucks (compared to conventional scenarios) when you get lower and lower. It is an infant technology, but it is promissing because it is fully open to updates without conflict. And by the way even at the present suckiness level it is much much better then actual KSP scenario. 

If the RSS mod could send just the data needed by demand like Outerra works one doesnt need to download all the data, only starting data for around the Space Center and low orbit flights. As soon as you accept a contract for a flight, software could ask you if you want to download the data set before flight, calculating all the datasets on the way to the designated area. I know, this is not easy, it is very complex stuff, but I think it is still a good idea.

[Green Baron]

I am fascinated by procedurally generated worlds too. Simulations with a geoscience background are actually quite far generating e. g. erosional structures and drainage systems from centimeter to mountain range and subcontinental size. Advances in climate research are a driving force because it touches all fields of geoscience and much of handling the huge amount of information. Some of it has been packed into algorithms and visualization.

But that costs, not so much computing power (the parallel power e.g. in modern graphics cards is barely used, and all the layers between the machine and the user eat up most of a pc's power for just pushing around data) but rather storage space.

If someone wanted to do something like this in connection with a computer game that'll be much work on the generator side because it needs more than just game physics (i mean force calculation, -integration, movement and dynamics, collisions, physics based shading). So one would need a solid framework written in code that can be executed fast and without intermediate layers like ready made game engines. That is why i would say KSP in its actual form isn't exactly suitable for that. Maybe a 2.0 or so. But until then maybe others have taken over.

Of course, i may be wrong ...

[felcas]

2 hours ago, Green Baron said:

I am fascinated by procedurally generated worlds too. Simulations with a geoscience background are actually quite far generating e. g. erosional structures and drainage systems from centimeter to mountain range and subcontinental size. Advances in climate research are a driving force because it touches all fields of geoscience and much of handling the huge amount of information. Some of it has been packed into algorithms and visualization.

But that costs, not so much computing power (the parallel power e.g. in modern graphics cards is barely used, and all the layers between the machine and the user eat up most of a pc's power for just pushing around data) but rather storage space.

If someone wanted to do something like this in connection with a computer game that'll be much work on the generator side because it needs more than just game physics (i mean force calculation, -integration, movement and dynamics, collisions, physics based shading). So one would need a solid framework written in code that can be executed fast and without intermediate layers like ready made game engines. That is why i would say KSP in its actual form isn't exactly suitable for that. Maybe a 2.0 or so. But until then maybe others have taken over.

Of course, i may be wrong ...

I have to agree with you in all aspects but on the storage or dataset sizes I can arguee that each different software/game could have pre-set by developers the level of detail it will download, soo a game like KSP could have a level 3 from a 1 to 10 scale being 1 the least detailed, even soo it would be super awesome. The developers could also give some or total degree of choice for the player to set the level of detail. And I am considering here the case of a centralized PGW model server where diferent applications would download. But there are the possibility to each developer buy its own model with pre-set pre-defined detail levels.

Yes I thought about that a KSP 2 would be more apropriated or perhaps, guys like Elon Musk see a potential to spread the space exploration culture and invest on its own version of KSP, maybe even more hardcore.