Make Jool a planet you can land on.

[Greenfire32]

Just now, vger said:

Jool is meant to be an analogue of Jupiter, therefore the prospect of landing there is wrong.

Kerbol is an analogue of Earth. Clearly we can land there. It's not a relevant comparison.

No, Kerbol is the sun analogue. You're thinking of Kerbin, which is the Earth analogue.

[vger]

2 minutes ago, Greenfire32 said:

No, Kerbol is the sun analogue. You're thinking of Kerbin, which is the Earth analogue.

Ah, fudge. Sorry, guess I'm not awake enough. Please tell me someone didn't actually manage to land there.

As an aside, I've been looking for the last 20 minutes for a drawing of the Galileo descent (which I'm sure I'd seen before), showing just how quickly it got crushed, without even scratching the "surface" of the atmosphere, relatively-speaking.

Edited June 22, 2017 by vger

[ZooNamedGames]

3 minutes ago, vger said:

Jool is meant to be an analogue of Jupiter, therefore the prospect of landing there is wrong.

Kerbol is an analogue of Earth. Our ability to land on Earth is not in question. It's not a relevant comparison.

And yet the engineering challenge will be done. 

Players have the ability to bridge the gap to engineering that will take humanity 250+ years to discover and use to reach the same depths.

So players can make it to those depths. Others just don't want those players to have the option.

1 minute ago, vger said:

Ah, fudge. Sorry, guess I'm not awake enough. Please tell me someone didn't actually manage to land there.

As an aside, I've been looking for the last 20 minutes for a drawing of the Galileo descent (which I'm sure I'd seen before), showing just how quickly it got crushed, without even scratching the "surface" of the atmosphere, relatively-speaking.

It wasn't intended to land either. So about as reliable for landing data as Luna 2 was for landing on the moon.

It's a strange thing but there is a difference between throwing away your useless spacecraft like Galileo, and trying to deep dive into a gas giant. It's kinda strange that way.

[Greenfire32]

2 minutes ago, vger said:

Ah, fudge. Sorry, guess I'm not awake enough. Please tell me someone didn't actually manage to land there.

Hey no worries, man. They're pretty similar names. Easy to get 'em flipped.

People used to land on the sun waaay back in the long ago all the time. It was a hilarious thing to do, but everyone had the wherewithal to recognize the impossibility behind it. 

[vger]

17 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

It wasn't intended to land either. So about as reliable for landing data as Luna 2 was for landing on the moon.

It's a strange thing but there is a difference between throwing away your useless spacecraft like Galileo, and trying to deep dive into a gas giant. It's kinda strange that way.

Well to be fair, the Kerbals don't care much about that. They'd throw as much money as they could burn into JUST a diving probe, just to see how far they could get, and possibly put some Kerbalnauts in there too because "Death for Science = honor" or whatever their Wile E. Coyote-esque ideology is. And no, I'm not expecting it to land.

Someone further back suggested that because a manned-return mission from Venus would be almost infinitely hard, that Venus shouldn't have an surface. That's silly though because Kerbals are crazy. If money weren't an option, I'm sure we could get a probe back from Venus. Jupiter though? No frickin' way.

Edited June 22, 2017 by vger

[ZooNamedGames]

Anyway; so for those open to the challenge. They can James Cameron deep dive Jool. For those who think it's impossible, they can never try and call it impossible. 

Simply have atmosphere scale higher the deeper you go and have player's designs work around it if they want to dive deeper. Ocean should be 10km deep.

Ocean should also provide a new biome and therefore, more science!

Place a small slab of land 10x10 for flag planters as an Easter egg at the North Pole and that makes Jool fairly balanced and effective at the OP's request. 

2 minutes ago, vger said:

Well to be fair, the Kerbals don't care much about that. They'd throw as much money as they could burn into JUST a diving probe, just to see how far they could get, and possibly put some Kerbalnauts in there too because "Death for Science = honor" or whatever their Wile E. Coyote-esque ideology is. And no, I'm not expecting it to land.

Someone further back suggested that because a manned-return mission from Venus would be almost infinitely hard, that Venus shouldn't have an atmosphere. That's silly though because Kerbals are crazy. If money weren't an option, I'm sure we could get a probe back from Venus. Jupiter though? No frickin' way.

And yet in future years (~500 or more) we will be able to travel beyond our solar system, and or faster than the speed of light and create massive structures in space to expand but deep diving a gas giant will never happen in all those years. Sad.

[Greenfire32]

4 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

For those who think it's impossible, they can never try and call it impossible.

You're confusing faith with knowledge. We have data (both in-game and real-world) that tells us that not only is "landing" on a "surface" that doesn't exist impossible, but also that the pressure is faaaaaaaar too great for anything that we can make to withstand to even get close to the "surface." You wouldn't even get 1/8th of the way there before you were crushed and destroyed.

i don't "think" it's impossible, I know it's impossible.

The only way to find the core of Jupiter would be to find a material that's just as dense as the core yet malleable enough to be used as a building material in order to build a craft capable of surviving the pressure and heat of the atmosphere of Jupiter. And since Jool is the Jupiter analogue, the same would apply.

and even then there's no garuntee that that super dense yet light-enough-to-be-used-as-hull-material could actually still survive. 

[vger]

33 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

And yet in future years (~500 or more) we will be able to travel beyond our solar system, and or faster than the speed of light and create massive structures in space to expand but deep diving a gas giant will never happen in all those years. Sad.

Even if something could, getting a signal back out would still be a huge problem.
 

 

And just for reference, here's the rundown on Galileo and Jupiter.

Jupiter's radius is 70000 km.
Jupiter's solid core, if it exists, probably has a 16000 km radius.

Distance from the edge of the atmosphere to the surface: 54000 km.

Assuming 54000 km from edge of space to the surface, Galileo bit the dust at 53844 km. That's 0.003% of the entire necessary trip.

As of its final transmission, Galileo reported this:

The heat shield's temperature reached around 15K C.
The ambient temperature of Jupiter at that depth was 153 C.
The pressure was 338 psi.

The pressure at the surface is estimated to be 650,000,000 psi.
The estimated temperature 24,000 C.

That's hotter than the surface of the sun, folks.

Good luck, engineers.

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by vger

[Wallygator]

1 hour ago, ZooNamedGames said:

We've never landed a manned mission on Mars nor Venus. So should the surfaces of those planets not exist until we do?

Issue is we can do what we can't do in real life. We can test and retest things in the span of an hour that would take years in real life. 

TL;DR Make a mod for it.

Aha! Your paradigm is encrusted with the concept of "Manned missions".  Ok then...  Specifically I take it that you are asking for the ability/opportunity to land a Kerbal on the "surface" of gas giant, plant a flag, build a base, etc.

I can't argue against you having this as a desire --> Fair enough. (As background, I'm primarily a RSS/RO player these days. I have no desire to put a crew member deep into the beating heart of Jupiter.)

As a point of constructive criticism, I'm not sure your communication style and/or logic is working to your benefit if your intention is to get other folks to agree with you.

Most importantly though, if this is a serious enough desire for you to take this kind of mission idea forward, then it is likely best to initiate a conversation with a competent modder (or perhaps you are one yourself - apologies as I am not aware).  It might make an interesting mod for those folks who are so inclined. It could be fun (from a game perspective - but maybe not necessarily  a reality perspective) so what the heck?  Probably would use Kopernicus as a base and that's not a difficult plugin to grasp from what I can see.  Go for it.  Make the mod, I'll dust off a stock install, and try it out - seriously. (Now, which Kerbal gets marooned? I think its got to be...)

Good luck!  ( to you and Mr. Kerman, with obvious condolences to Mrs. Kerman)

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Wallygator
Grrrramer and Schpelling

[John FX]

21 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Players already do get low flying Jool science. Either their science craft is actually built to survive a pass down there and escape, or is expendable.

Ah, if that science is currently available then maybe introduce the pressure stress system to make it a bit harder and limit the parts which will remain intact and be able to reach such a depth. Extra science could be gotten from deep ocean too, AFAIK there is not `underwater at X` science, just landed. Maybe on Jool, there is not landed but an extra `underwater at Jool` layer could be the last bit of possible science showing the gas had become liquid due to the pressure..

I have also thought that if such a system were to be introduced then it could work the other way as well. Some parts would not be suitable for vacuum and would explode or break in that environment.

[JadeOfMaar]

4 hours ago, John FX said:

Ah, if that science is currently available then maybe introduce the pressure stress system to make it a bit harder and limit the parts which will remain intact and be able to reach such a depth. Extra science could be gotten from deep ocean too, AFAIK there is not `underwater at X` science, just landed. Maybe on Jool, there is not landed but an extra `underwater at Jool` layer could be the last bit of possible science showing the gas had become liquid due to the pressure..

I have also thought that if such a system were to be introduced then it could work the other way as well. Some parts would not be suitable for vacuum and would explode or break in that environment.

For "underwater" there is the splashed situation, just like on any terra with oceans so that's already there. As for parts being unsuitable for vacuum or extreme pressure I think some modder out there could whip something up in a short time. There's already the stock feature (disabled by default) that parts have g-force limits, making ships realistically more fragile while slamming into or through an atmosphere. It would be entertaining to see such a sensitive device stowed and protected in a cargo bay but then it explodes when the bay is opened.

[KerbolExplorer]

heres a tutorial on how to do it

 

[NSEP]

15 hours ago, Gaarst said:

Download RSS, try to ascend from Venus and come back once you've achieved it. Then we can discuss landing on the core of a gas giant (semi) seriously.

Somebody already did that actually.

[Gaarst]

2 minutes ago, NSEP said:

Somebody already did that actually.

Yeah I already watched this video, but it was made when Isp decrease meant increase in consumption (instead of decrease in thrust). I'm pretty sure the changes made it 100% impossible with regular chemical propulsion.

[NSEP]

Just now, Gaarst said:

Yeah I already watched this video, but it was made when Isp decrease meant increase in consumption (instead of decrease in thrust). I'm pretty sure the changes made it 100% impossible with regular chemical propulsion.

Ok, hold my beer... im up for a challenge.

[Wallygator]

5 hours ago, NSEP said:

Ok, hold my beer... im up for a challenge.

All our hopes are with you...

[NSEP]

16 minutes ago, Wallygator said:

All our hopes are with you...

Thanks.

This might take a while, my beer will get warm by the time im done. But i dont care.

[vger]

Very interested to see how this turns out.

[sirgoodman]

OK, I know it might not be possible in real life, I suggested this because I thought it would be fun. I wasn't aware that the game developers were trying to stay grounded on a mostly realistic basis. So now I see that nothing like that is ever going to happen in KSP for those reasons, but hey the idea was pretty fun.  

[Wallygator]

4 minutes ago, sirgoodman said:

OK, I know it might not be possible in real life, I suggested this because I thought it would be fun. I wasn't aware that the game developers were trying to stay grounded on a mostly realistic basis. So now I see that nothing like that is ever going to happen in KSP for those reasons, but hey the idea was pretty fun.  

Don't say its never going to happen - rather consider that the game is still being developed beyond the basic engine and content.  Either DLC or mods may provide the experience you are suggesting.  The only issue is how it fits in with the existing canon, game-centric physics, and some distant sense of #realityfusedwithHarvestersandothersoriginalthinkinghopefullynotdilutedbytaketwointhefuture.

 

 

[vger]

2 hours ago, sirgoodman said:

OK, I know it might not be possible in real life, I suggested this because I thought it would be fun. I wasn't aware that the game developers were trying to stay grounded on a mostly realistic basis. So now I see that nothing like that is ever going to happen in KSP for those reasons, but hey the idea was pretty fun.  

Still an interesting challenge though if they made it work right. I could see fierce competition to be the record depth holder.