SQUAD

KSP Weekly: The son of Mars and Venus

75 posts in this topic

14 hours ago, weissel said:

But the console does not have new workflows, nor new features getting implemented, no new screens added, no new parts made/overhauled.

It's not like that at all. They themselves say that a complete redesign of the interface and control schemes for the gamepad is made to get away from the cursor that is unacceptable for consoles. This is a big and significant change in the whole game, but over the months we've seen only one pathetic screenshot.

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On 09/07/2017 at 7:30 PM, Mako said:

It really didn't. Squad chose to listen to community feedback and release the update without Tier 0. They could have chosen to rush to release sub-par assets, or chosen to bring those assets up to the same quality as the other Tiers. Instead they chose to postpone Tier 0. Also, they said they intended to rework Tier 0 and release it at a later date. This was 2 years ago now. Please explain how community feedback is responsible for the lack of a Tier 0 when Squad has had full control (until recently) and they've had 2 years to do something about it.

The community is not a group of shareholders. Squad is not beholden to us; they chose what they do and how, and chose to listen to feedback or disregard it at their discretion. The idea that the community somehow has that much power is absurd.

The people who said Tier 0 is omitted but intended to be reworked and released are no longer at Squad, but we've received no new information on Tier 0 before or since they left. It was obviously a very low priority for Squad at that time as evidenced by the sub-par assets, and it appears to have remained a very low priority ever since. If you want to be upset with someone for lack of a Tier 0, be upset with Squad and not with the community which provided the feedback Squad invited when they chose open development.

That was a very long way to say that tier 0 would have been in the game except for the complaining. If it were in the game then it would be far more likely to be worked on than now when it basically is in the bin. To the detriment of gameplay.

There is not a single case I am aware of in all my time on this forum where complaining about anything prompted squad to produce better work. The only response is either to do nothing or to remove the focus of complaint. With only those two outcomes is complaint something you would want to see?

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22 minutes ago, John FX said:

There is not a single case I am aware of in all my time on this forum where complaining about anything prompted squad to produce better work.

Clearly there's a point at which feedback becomes complaining, and because I naively tend to think the best of people I see most "complaints" as feedback delivered with poor impulse control and/or high blood pressure.

But I can think of several instances where forum feedback has prompted Squad to change.... tweak.... direction.

Fairly recently - the round toroidal tank: Squad identified a need to provide a larger capacity xenon tank and initially decided on repurposing the Blessed Orange Donut for the task. An.... enthusiastic.... forum crowd fed back the love they felt for the Blessed Orange Donut, several hundred of us changed avatars and everything.

The result being Squad took that feedback on board, retained the Blessed Orange Donut and designed instead an entirely new - and entirely swanky - larger capacity xenon tank.

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30 minutes ago, John FX said:

That was a very long way to say that tier 0 would have been in the game except for the complaining. If it were in the game then it would be far more likely to be worked on than now when it basically is in the bin. To the detriment of gameplay.

There is not a single case I am aware of in all my time on this forum where complaining about anything prompted squad to produce better work. The only response is either to do nothing or to remove the focus of complaint. With only those two outcomes is complaint something you would want to see?

If Squad's only response to complaints were to give up (it isn't) then I would say they need to grow up and need (they don't) to learn how to accept criticism and use it to improve KSP. 

When contracts were first introduced there was no end to the amount of complaining about how pointless they were, how little sense they made, and how they were occasionally impossible. But Squad hired someone to work on it (among other things) and they have been steadily improved with every update, except the last.

It's pretty clear that they are going to be releasing new parts in the DLC regardless of what a hand full of forum people think. It's also clear that RoverDude is an amazing artist and clearly capable of making parts with a consistently high quality. So it's reasonable to think that some of the criticism leveled in the dev notes and elsewhere could be incorporated into future designs and existing WIP designs.

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, John FX said:

That was a very long way to say that tier 0 would have been in the game except for the complaining.

It was a long way to say that Tier 0 would be in the game if Squad wanted to put it in the game. Obviously it is a very, very low priority. Which leads me to your point that they could have put the sub-par barn in place and fixed it later. If it's too low a priority to do thus far, what makes you think they would have ever done something about it? I would like to present as evidence the rocket parts that, just like the barn, were supposedly going to be updated and implemented.

The only thing the community is responsible for is letting Squad know it does not believe Squad should cut corners when adding new assets/content. I think that is even more important and relevent now since updating older assets to match the quality of newer assets is postponed indefinitely.

Edited by Mako
Changed the last few sentences. They were too sarcastic and argumentative.

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Posted (edited)

I must admit that i am a quite patient person but when the hell will the DLC drop?

GRRRAAAA! (:D humor required)

Soon i am going to machine me some soyuz booster shaped solid steelrods steelstakes and ram them into my PC housing.
Four of them to be more accurate. Yes.

Edited by Mikki
clarifiying the solidness of steelstakes8D

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On 7/7/2017 at 5:29 PM, CattyNebulart said:

Multiplayer is still listed as a feature to be added eventually. And one I am really looking forward to.

Main game was considered "feature complete" after 1.0, and after 1.1, and after 1.2.......

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Posted (edited)

Yesterday marks the 1 YEAR anniversary of KSP launching on ps4!

Edited by Space Station 4 Crash

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32 minutes ago, Space Station 4 Crash said:

Yesterday marks the 1 YEAR anniversary of KSP launching on ps4!

In an eerily similar incident, three years ago on this day I got punched in the face. It sucked. :mad:

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

In an eerily similar incident, three years ago on this day I got punched in the face. It sucked. :mad:

Hey.  That's a pretty good analogy for buying KSP on console!

 

Oh, wait...you were being serious.

Edited by klgraham1013
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Posted (edited)

On 7/7/2017 at 5:17 PM, qzgy said:

He may be referring to this post (http://kerbaldevteam.tumblr.com/post/47730955705/expansions-dlc-and-the-future-of-ksp). or to this post in the "Commonly Suggested Things" In the suggestions and Development, where multiplayer has been filed by Sal as "Already Planned"

However, multiplayer has been discussed extensively (refer the to multiple threads in the Suggestions and Development), and I think the general consensus has been "Cool, but nearly impossible to make work"

 

I call BS on that one! KMP,DMP,Luna multiplayer all prove that it can!!!!! And having access to the actual source code (which the devs do) this is absolutely possible to do along with craft,mission sharing,screenshot sharing,and time warping among others. I don't know where you got your information from but you are absolutely WRONG! And 99% of the mechanics is already done if the devs would just commit to it and the "hacky" code could be replaced with sound,solid,bug free code thus resulting in a very stable bug-free multiplayer. Just saying!

https://github.com/godarklight/DarkMultiPlayer

https://github.com/DaggerES/LunaMultiPlayer

hats off to TheGimp, @GoDarklight , @RockyTV , @Lothsahn , @Dagger

Edited by Redneck

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2 hours ago, Redneck said:

I call BS on that one! KMP,DMP,Luna multiplayer all prove that it can!!!!! And having access to the actual source code (which the devs do) this is absolutely possible to do along with craft,mission sharing,screenshot sharing,and time warping among others. I don't know where you got your information from but you are absolutely WRONG! And 99% of the mechanics is already done if the devs would just commit to it and the "hacky" code could be replaced with sound,solid,bug free code thus resulting in a very stable bug-free multiplayer. Just saying!

https://github.com/godarklight/DarkMultiPlayer

https://github.com/DaggerES/LunaMultiPlayer

hats off to TheGimp, @GoDarklight , @RockyTV , @Lothsahn , @Dagger

Do any of those really work well? You yourself said they have "hacky" code. Also, I'm pretty sure due to legal reasons the devs can't go "yoink, we'll borrow that, thnks k later bye".

Give me proof of a flawless multiplayer system that doesn't bork out ever (I'm not saying anything is bug free, but DMP for example I've heard doesn't work great for docking, which is a part of the game) and then I'll start believing you.

Also, while there are timewarp systems in place with those mods already, its not really great solutions. Which they have to be for KSP Multiplayer to work.

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, qzgy said:

Do any of those really work well? You yourself said they have "hacky" code. Also, I'm pretty sure due to legal reasons the devs can't go "yoink, we'll borrow that, thnks k later bye".

Give me proof of a flawless multiplayer system that doesn't bork out ever (I'm not saying anything is bug free, but DMP for example I've heard doesn't work great for docking, which is a part of the game) and then I'll start believing you.

Also, while there are timewarp systems in place with those mods already, its not really great solutions. Which they have to be for KSP Multiplayer to work.

i dont need to give you proof of anything go try them yourself and answer your own question. The reason for "hacky" is because the devs dont have access to the source and have to do workarounds. Like i said if the devs would commit to multiplayer those problems would not exist. Do you have a better solution for the timewarp systems?

Edited by Redneck

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Posted (edited)

52 minutes ago, Redneck said:

Do you have a better solution for the timewarp systems?

Are we doing this again?  Ok, band.  Strike up the Multiplayer Discussion Theme Song.

 

Off we go into the stinking brown dungheap,
Diving deep into the muck!
Here they come trying to calm our ponders,
At 'em boys, "All timewarp schemes suck!"
Down we dive, shouting our paradox questions
Off into one helluva war!
We live with flames as the thread gets locked. Hey!
Nothing can stop the Timewarp Problem!

Edited by razark
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31 minutes ago, razark said:

Are we doing this again?  Ok, band.  Strike up the Multiplayer Discussion Theme Song.

 

Off we go into the stinking brown dungheap,
Diving deep into the muck!
Here they come trying to calm our ponders,
At 'em boys, "All timewarp schemes suck!"
Down we dive, shouting our paradox questions
Off into one helluva war!
We live with flames as the thread gets locked. Hey!
Nothing can stop the Timewarp Problem!

I hope you dont play KSP like you write lyrics

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Just now, Redneck said:

I hope you dont play KSP like you write lyrics

From the posts on KSP Reddit
To the threads of Squad's forum;
We will fight our fellow posters
On the merits of DMP;
First we fight if it even makes sense,
And then how to make it work;
We are proud to claim that timewarp
Will work if just done MY way!

 

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, razark said:

From the posts on KSP Reddit
To the threads of Squad's forum;
We will fight our fellow posters
On the merits of DMP;
First we fight if it even makes sense,
And then how to make it work;
We are proud to claim that timewarp
Will work if just done MY way!

 

yeah umm you fail

http://tinyurl.com/4poyc6x

 

Edited by Redneck

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As amusing as this turn of the conversation may be, it is off-topic. 

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Being real for a second here, I bought the game for console pretty much a year ago and as everyone knows it's been unplayable. I think I relate to all console players when I say I just want to be able to play the game while it's still relevant. I'm going to college and am getting a job soon, so most of my time is going to be preoccupied. I've essentially got one summer left to really delve into the game and it will make me very sad if Squad can't manage to update the game soon(ish).

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On 7/10/2017 at 6:43 AM, MiniMatt said:

Could someone with more up to date knowledge than I (it's been - gulp - over a decade since I was last involved in any software dev) give a quick rundown on what I'm presuming to be RAD project management? Particularly as to how us eager & curious consumers can gauge progress.

Because I'd assumed (I being, as we've established, out of date & more than a little naive) when the expansion was announced, that the design was more or less complete with coding, art, and polish remaining - occasionally revisiting the design document only if areas proved unexpectedly troublesome or someone is struck by late stage inspiration.

Gauging progress is important to eager, naive, and... impatient... consumers like myself and whilst this point falls dangerously close to asking the understandably un-askable "when's it due for release?" - I have no idea if this is holding up for release in the next couple of months, before Christmas, or for this time next year. It's a thought entirely informed by my out of date, old fashioned development thinking, but when I see updates about carrying on with the design, consumer me says "looks interesting, I'll put a pin in the calendar a year from now and come take a look"

 

ps. I really do want to stress this is not a criticism - I don't know more about software development than Squad. Very few people on this forum will know more about software development than Squad. I don't know more about KSP development than Squad. Nobody on this forum knows more about KSP development than Squad. This really is a query borne of my out of date design-build-test-release thinking and a sneaky way of getting a release date question past the forum rules :)

 

On 7/10/2017 at 7:32 AM, klgraham1013 said:

I've always been under the impression that design docs in the manner you're speaking, and the manner in which my uneducated mind knows them, isn't so much of a thing at Squad.  See career mode development as an example.  Anyone actually at Squad can correct me, of course.

Sorry missed these earlier in the week.
To clarify for you. We use an Agile Iterative Scrum methodology for project design, development and delivery.
What this means is that all elements of project delivery are Iterative. So while there is an overall Project Design which outlines the overall scope of the project. The details within the Design iterates and grows and develops as we go through agile iterations, as does the development, testing, etc.
The design one sprint, is then built on in the next sprint...
The development follows in the same pattern. etc. and before anyone jumps on that and says anything along the lines of we don't therefore know what we are doing, or how long it is going to take.
That is also not true. Planning is outlined for the whole project, and refined as we go as well.
If you want to learn more about how Agile and Scrum works, google is your friend. :)
So when you ask? I am not at liberty to tell you. Sorry.
Oh, and to clarify for @klgraham1013 we have LOTS and LOTS of design documents... and they are living documents as per any Agile delivery.

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7 hours ago, razark said:

posts on KSP Reddit

*shudders involuntarily*

1 hour ago, JPLRepo said:

~snip~

Thanks for the reply.  It's not your job to interact with the community.  So, it's appreciated.

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18 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

Hey.  That's a pretty good analogy for buying KSP on console!

 

Oh, wait...you were being serious.

Here is to a re-release that is successful and smooth. I can't imagine a repeat of the last launch.

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I think it will be a smooth re-release if everybody would stop cursing Squad about how horrible their first release was. IT WASN'T THEIR FAULT, IT WAS FLYING TIGER'S!

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Casualnaut said:

I think it will be a smooth re-release if everybody would stop cursing Squad about how horrible their first release was. IT WASN'T THEIR FAULT, IT WAS FLYING TIGER'S!

I know.  It's like I keep telling the girlfriend.  It's not my fault that chair is wobbly and uncomfortable.  I hired my best bro to do it. Then she has the nerve to point out he's not even a carpenter.

Edited by klgraham1013
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On 2017-07-14 at 11:32 AM, Casualnaut said:

I think it will be a smooth re-release if everybody would stop cursing Squad about how horrible their first release was. IT WASN'T THEIR FAULT, IT WAS FLYING TIGER'S!

Well, it was kinda their fault. Squad took ownership of their poor decision and hired a better company (growing pains I guess). I think the frustrations are proportional to the time that is passing to get the new console release done. It doesn't really mater anymore at this point. It will be done when it is done and nothing is going to change that. If people are still interested they will play, if not, they won't. The game is so awesome that I think it will bounce back on console.

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