[0.24.2] TiberDyne Aerospace R&D Division - Shuttle System 3.6 Career Update!

[Tiberion]

Okay, that took longer than expected, Killerhurtz helped me crack the code on making the control surface flaps work properly, so I finished the small tailfin and then re-made the shuttle fin so it looks and works properly too.

I\'ll update the main post with more details tomorrow, but here is a quick run-down of whats in the pack now, and some screenshots.

Download TiberDyne Shuttle Booster System version 1.2Alpha: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46506740/KSP/ShuttleBoosterSystemv1_2b.zip

Required KSP 0.13 and C7 Spaceplanes 2.16 - Must use fuel lines to give main engines enough fuel to launch now. No more cheating

Shuttle Parts:

Mark 3 Shuttle Fuselage engine mount (Allows you to place up to 3 engines individually, or attach the Shuttle Engine module directly. You\'ll also attach a fuel hose from this piece to the external tank.

Mark 3 Shuttle Engine Module - a single module consisting of 3 Bearcat rocket engines functioning as a single unit. Has a high angle of gimbal

BearCat Rocket Engine - a 0.5m rocket engine with light gimbaling - a powerhouse in a small package.

Bearcub Turbojet Engine - a 0.5m jet engine for use in atmospheric flight. Some magical trickery allows it to pull oxidizer from the internal tanks and work in a vaccuum (for now!)

Mark 3 Shuttle Wing Mounts - a mounting tank that goes on the side of the shuttle. The main wings attach to the sides and you can attach a Bearcub jet engine to the end for atmospheric flight.

Mark 3 Wing - The main wing of the shuttle. Provides lift.

Mark 3 Wing Flap - An aileron for the main wing.

Mark 3 Canard - the forward canard, used to provide control authority while in the atmosphere

Mark 3 Tail Fin - A tall tailfin for the Mark 3 shuttle

Mark 3 RCS module - half of the forward nose area - 6 vectors of RCS thrust provide control authority in orbit (Note: all other RCS must come from manually placed blocks - don\'t forget to add some more on the rear to balance things)

Mark 3 ASAS - The flight contoller package, compressed to fit in the nose cone. Frees up considerable interior cargo and mission space over the old inline ASAS unit.

Booster Parts:

External tank - consists of 4 modular parts, the nosecone and bottom cap full of RCS fuel, and long and short tanks full of roccket fuel. Stack as much as you need to launch your mission

TD-4 Energia Boosters - Attaches to the side of the External tanks - Burns amount a minute and gets you moving upward nicely

Shuttle-Style Solid Boosters - These looks somewhat familiar - you see a small label on the bottom 'NovaPunch' (original model by NovaSilisko)

SSRB nosecone - Its a nosecone for the Shuttle boosters. Also from NovaPunch, originally in Wobbly rockets and made by SundayPunch

External Tank Engine Package - Much like the Energia booster, the TiberDyne Shuttle Boooster System has an engine package that can attach to the bottom of the external tank (minus the bottom cap) to assist in lifting a heavy load (or launch a Buran-style shuttle-stack)

External Cargo Pod system:

When you don\'t need to launch a shuttle, launch your cargo in this over-sized shell on the Shuttle Booster system.

Upper and Lower Shell pieces - Surrounds your cargo - both pieces snap onto the cargo mount to form a single unit. Limited collision detection, nothing can attach to them.

Cargo Mount - The base of the cargo pods, also has an engine shroud and 3 attachment points for Bearcat engines. This piece will attach to the fuel hose from the external tank, and the decoupler from the external tank can also attach here as well.

Pod Adapter - A decoupler that attaches to the Cargo Mount and recieves your cargo - used to place large (2meter and above) diamater cargo in the 'center' of the cargo shell

Various assorted pieces:

Bearcub Turbojet engine mounts - Long and Short version - radially attaching tank and mount for the Bearcub jet engine

Thin Profile Decoupler - Super thin radial decoupler - used to connect boosters flush with the external tank. Has a mildly annoying surface connection node

Mark 2 Twin Engine mount - flared mount to allow the Mark 2 C7 hull to attach 2 standard C7 jet engines. Can also accept Bearcat or BearCub engines.

Tail Fin - a generic control surface, smaller than the Shuttle tailfin, with a built-in flap.

Launch Stand - a red, rough-hewn steel girder used as a launch strut for the Shuttle Booster system - Use several to hold your launch stack level on the pad.

Installation - Delete any old version, Open the TD_ShuttleSystem folder and copy the folders within the 'Parts' folder there into the 'Parts' folder in your main directory. If you use GME you can just drag the whole TD_ShuttleSystem into your Mods folder.

Alternate skin installation - Install pack normally then copy the folders within ExternalTanks->NASA-Style or Energia-Style over the folders by the same name in your Parts directory.

Craft files - go in the Ships folder - Requires this version of TD_SBS and the latest C7 Spaceplanes to load, as well as KSP 0.13 or HIGHER.

Craft Files included:

NASA-Style Launch stack (Recommand installing NASA tank skin)

Buran-Style Launch stack (Recommend installing Buran-style tank skin (default skin))

Orbiter shuttle without launch stack

TiberDyne Gryphon Sub-orbital test plane - testing platform for BearCub jet engine

[rebelcommando1807]

I offer up a slight variant on your shuttle - One that is more stable on the pad, too!

Staging\'s already fiddled out, just turn on the ASAS and launch. Needs the NovaPunch pack for the tops of the boosters, but that\'s it.

Have fun!

[Tiberion]

Works good, rebel - adding that extra RCS tank does make it look like its a more appropriate length, though now the tank looks short.

Did you jut prefer the round cones for the boosters instead of the pointy ones I included?

Also, do you all think the SSRB is too long? I did lengthen it to the 5-segment length they were going to use for the Ares rockets, and they were only 4 segments for the shuttle. I could clone it and add the cap on permanently, just rendering it unstackable.

How is it flying for everyone?

I did finally update the first post, so its not so much of a hot mess anymore.

[rebelcommando1807]

Works good, rebel - adding that extra RCS tank does make it look like its a more appropriate length, though now the tank looks short.

Well, now the tank is closer to the length of the ship. Could always tack on another short tank atop that, though.

Did you jut prefer the round cones for the boosters instead of the pointy ones I included?

Were just the first ones that came to mind, actually. Though, in all reality, they should be pointy. And the tank should be about the same length, just \'moved\' up a bit. Gotta love Wikipedia.

( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/STS120LaunchHiRes-edit1.jpg )

Also, do you all think the SSRB is too long? I did lengthen it to the 5-segment length they were going to use for the Ares rockets, and they were only 4 segments for the shuttle. I could clone it and add the cap on permanently, just rendering it unstackable.

Personally? Doesn\'t matter much to me, so long as the scale looks right and it doesn\'t cause the rocket to tip over and be unreliable to launch. As they are right now, they work beautifully, burning out after getting you out of the thick of it, if I recall.

How is it flying for everyone?

I find that you need that crazy-high gimalling engine in order to fly it.. Would have loved to just have the three engines on there (More ability to lose specific ones, y\'know?), but I\'m not complaining much.

Also, ASAS. No comments needed there. Other than it helps so much.

[Tiberion]

Well you can totally just put 3 bearcats on there instead of the 'engine pack' which has the same stats as three of them, the engine mount has the extra mountpoints to accept them no problem.

2 caveats tho:

1: You\'ll have to turn up their gimbal range - I lowered it on the individual engines so they\'d be useful for other things - but they need the high gimbal range to counter-act the imbalance that is natural in strapping a spaceship on the side of a tank and shooting off the engines - you need slightly less if you have the engines on the shuttle and the tank running, but only a little. Its especially required in the window when you get high enough that control surfaces no longer work and ASAS is only using gimbals - and as the weight in the tank drops and the balance changes.

2: Using the 3 engine mounts actually upsets the flight dynamics of the shuttle orbiter by itself - because C7 set the center of his parts 'low' so we can mount our wings on the lower part of the fuselage, the center of thrust for the part is low too - so placing engines 'normally' around the center actually puts them well above the CoT and causes the ship to pitch down when thrusting.

They\'ll work fine when lifting and with ASAS on due to gimbals, but trying to fly with them on is impossible. So you\'ll want to rig things so they aren\'t burning when flying in atmosphere - thats the main reason I added the wing-mounted engines.

We\'re still pretty limited compared to the actual shuttle, so a lot of it is still trial and error; For instance the shuttle flight computer performs a rollover soon after clearing the tower to achieve the proper flight heading - doing that manually is quite difficult because you would need to fly with ASAS off. I usually wait until I drop boosters, cut engines and turn on RCS, then roll and begin pitchover. Though if you don\'t mind a polar orbit, its a pretty easy flight

Having a flight computer to auto-pilot the roll-over would be the bees knees.

Query for those flying this thing: How is the actual flight dynamics of the orbiter? the lift and control settings on the wings are only rough-ins as this point, being best guesses from the C7 wings. I feel it needs more stabilizer, but I welcome more input.

[Bigred2989]

The Buran falls apart when you load it (either the tail or the whole engine block pops off).

The NASA one doesn\'t even stand straight. :-\

[comradephil]

Probably because it\'s not airworthy anymore due to sitting around rusting for twenty years

[Tiberion]

Wow.. I just copied the saves from the zip back in.. They\'re somehow an older version than what was in my folder - the tail falls off because I reworked the model to have a proper control flap and didn\'t re-attach it with the new collider and re-save... and I am not sure why the boosters on the NASA save are like that.

My apologizes, I\'ll fix the saves up and attach them here separately, and update the zip file later.

[Tiberion]

Here\'s the fixed save files - the shuttles should sit in the pad properly and launch with no stack re-ordering.

Updating the zip file now, - no new version, just the new craft files - will be labeled '1.2b'

[rebelcommando1807]

I present to you Shuttle Two, now with a rearranged frame and, hopefully, a bit more fuel. Also, it\'s a bit more true, I think, to the way it\'s arranged on the actual shuttle.

..Also, if anyone cares, the EFT on the test launch of this thing is still orbiting with some fuel in it..

[Herpderpsslerps]

Buddy pal, great work, but may I suggest a .cfg edit for a little added realism for your bear cubs?

Ditch the flame all together for the FX and up it to a medium smoke trail, it looks more like an old Kerosene burning jet like the B-52, I mean you only see the smoke on older jet engines, newer ones have nothing, no glow coming out of the pipes unless they are using after burners.

other then that pretty good pack, I\'ve been enjoying messing around with different engine configs.

ASAS is frigging awesome for the shuttle nose, keeps my planes from wobbling to hard, I\'m going to have to try its config on others to see if it works better then stock for the big rockets I\'ve built.

[Melfice]

Both shuttles you provided love to roll left on it\'s axle. It makes manoeuvring in orbit a royal pain in the you-know-what.

Other than that, it flies like a brick. Which is appropriate, considering that\'s how the real shuttles fly! And it\'s pretty good, although the fuel line on the Buran model seems inappropriate, since the engines on the shuttle don\'t actually fire during launch. Only after you ditch the fuel tank.

[Tiberion]

Melfice: Not sure what you mean by axle - is it actual roll like for a barrel roll? I test flew the NASA save all the way to the moon and back and didn\'t notice - maybe the launch knocked a piece off? I\'ll look at it anyway.

I stuck the fuel line on there so you can re-stage and burn the Main engines if you want - to make sure the line was running the right way - you can totally pull it off if you\'re laucnhing Buran style

I\'d like to make a different engine pack for the Buran launch thats just for orbital maneuvering - thus launching in Buran config would be optimal for long-range missions. Though I\'m also gonna make the OME thrusters that the NASA style shuttles have too.

Herp: Thats a good idea - I wish we had a white vapor trail FX that only worked in atmosphere. I\'m pretty sure there is some tweaking to be done on ASAS to make it work better too.

[Melfice]

I write axle. I mean axis. Sorry, something got lost in translation there. (in Dutch, we use 'as' for both words)

Yeah, like in an aileron roll.

It could be something got knocked off during lift off but the debriefing screen gives me a clean report, so I don\'t think so.

At any rate, I\'ll try again later, to see if it wasn\'t some stupid fluke.

And the fuel line is rather logical fool-proofing. Didn\'t consider that.

[CAPFlyer]

I get a hard roll left as well, so bad that I can\'t get the thing to fly straight, it just wallows and tries to flip over all the time, making it impossible to fly.

[Tiberion]

Is this with the ext tank at liftoff, or just the orbiter?

Home from early Christmas, so I\'ll poke a few things, see whats what.

[Melfice]

Both.

As soon as you turn the ASAS off to make any kind of correction, it\'ll immediately start to roll.

If you\'re lucky, it\'ll only roll uncontrollably on it\'s own axis.

If you\'re unlucky you\'ve got some kind of rotation going on, it\'ll start tumbling like mad.

EDIT: Did some further testing with an orbiter of my own.

This model, however, did NOT have the bearcub engines attached. (nor any RCS tanks and engines beyond the one present in the nose module.)

Under low amounts of thrust (0 - 75%*), the model could only be 'controlled' while under the influence of ASAS.

Under high amounts of thrust (75% - 100%*), the model handled like a brick, but the persistent roll was minimal to non-existent.

Compared to the included model (bearcub and other equipment) where any amount of thrust (or lack thereof) would result in uncontrollable rolling.

I can\'t, with a clear conscience, conclude that the fault lies with the bearcub engines, but I do seem to have better results in flying without them.

Happily awaiting the results of your own tests.

Merry Christmas, in any case.

* Numbers are very likely not accurate. I was mostly fighting the joystick.

[Tiberion]

I think I figured it out - right before I published the update I swapped the mk3 half-sized tank from being above the long tank to below it, next to the engine mount (in preparation of the long tank being replaced by the cargo hold)

I didn\'t re-attach the wingmounts (the black things the side engines attach to) and everything connected - but when I just tried to rebuild the shuttle, I found that the wingmounts will not attach to that piece, there is a collision mesh overlap somewhere - so the save file is loading a ship with illegally placed meshes and its introducing error - which was magnified when the engines attached to the mounts produced more thrust.

So for now, the solution is to just pick up a wing tank (with main wing and aileron still attached) and then reattach it in 2x symmetry - it\'ll have to be attached slightly 'up' from before, and you might need to move the canard as well to make everything look right.

That should solve that problem, but the issue of tumbling still exists, its gimballing related; they overwhelm the stabilizer wings - I need to figure out which stats add more 'stability' or resistance to both Pitch-up and down and roll - I am thinking it might be Angular drag on the main wings and tail wings.

Edit: indeed, turning up AngularDrag on the mainwing and tailfin seems to have made it fly a lot tigher.

[Tiberion]

Still working on some flight balancing, but I took some time to re-model the Bearcat engine since it was the 1st complex mesh I made from scratch

Re-did the shuttle cluster version too, of course:

[Guest meteorite 101]

The shuttles fall apart on the launch pad

[Tiberion]

try reinstalling the parts (clean out the old parts 1st) and then recopying the save files - they should not fall apart.

[Guest meteorite 101]

i did that twice

[Tiberion]

Are you using the newest version?

What falls apart? The NASA save file, the Buran save file, just the shuttle save file? Wings falling off, engines, tanks?

[sarkun]

Are you using the newest version?

What falls apart? The NASA save file, the Buran save file, just the shuttle save file? Wings falling off, engines, tanks?

Ignore him Tib. He reports problems in *every* mod thread. Troll, most probably.

[OtherDalfite]

i did that twice

You obviously can not seem to understand the simplicity of installing parts mod.