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Doing it Gemini Style - An Alternate History Mun Mission

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Death Engineering

Death Engineering

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So by my reckoning - and if all the points count - I claim 106 points. I still count 94 points even if none of the ones I've asked about count; if I'm not mistaken, that puts me in the lead either way.

And capi3101 rockets to the top of the leaderboard! Very interesting hardware designs, too and good read on the mission report. How is the delta-v for the Saturn C-3 design? I've often thought about that design but couldn't see a way I liked to have three tanks on the first stage and 4 on the second stage.

The LES implementation is very Gemini-crazy-60's-like! :D However, since the landing was on water, no points for the skids... sorry. "Perform a parachute assisted landing on deployable wheels or skids". All other points are earned, so still a great mission!

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capi3101

capi3101

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101 points, I ain't gonna complain.

The delta-V on the C-3 isn't too terrible, though the way I designed it the first stage is a touch on the wobbly side (might've done better with a centerline engine and two outboard instead of all three outboard with a centerline feeder fuel tank). 1494.574 m/s and 1.2 TWR on the first stage, 2935.502 m/s and 1.45 TWR on the second stage, about 4430 m/s all told for the booster (which is a bit short of the ideal 4550 of course - that's why I thought I might have had to use the Centaur to finish the ascent; I didn't take into account the increase in Isp as I approached vacuum and neither do those figures above).

I think if I had to do it over I'd swap out the Mainsails on the first stage of the Saturn I (the space bike) with Skippers - the craft has a launch TWR of 3.0 as is; the thing literally leaps into the sky if you go full throttle and there's a serious risk of pancaking involved. Skippers would still have given me a 1.5 launch TWR and I'd've gained some delta-V in the booster (not that I needed it for that one, of course).

I am seriously glad I did this challenge - I've already adapted the Orthus design to make it capable of a landing and re-orbit on Moho, and I built a Moho capable craft the other day, so I'm thinking that's where I'll be heading next in my general game...Moho Orbit Rendezvous.

Edited by capi3101
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borisperrons

borisperrons

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Ladies and gentlemen, i'm proud to present you the result of the work of a boy left alone in a rainy day with a bottle of wine and a copy of KSP.

Lo and behold, for Stardust Mission!

I went for a three launches mission, with LOR and open cockpit lander.

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And now, to the points!!!

Primary mission objective (+20)

Mission

Munar Orbit Rendezvous (+6): Using two launches to low Kerbin orbit, separately send two spacecraft to Munar orbit. Once there, dock them together and complete a landing mission.

Landing prestige: One Kerbal on the Mun (+7). Second Kerbal on the Mun (+4).

Capsule

Happy together (+3): Both crew members are never separated by more than 10km

We're done with that (+3): Detachable support module (Jettison from command module before Kerbin landing at least three of:RCS cells, electrical systems, lighting, legs, retro package)

Just in case (+3): Launch Escape System present

Lifter

Is that a Titan II? (+2): At least one of the rockets uses a two-engine cluster first stage and a single engine cluster second stage.

Wow, A Titan III!(+3): At least one of the rockets earns 'Is that a Titan II?' and has two strap on SRB's on the first stage.

Saturn S-3? That's your full-size (+5): At least one rocket uses a 3 engine first stage and a 4 engine second stage.

Won't Apollo miss that Saturn 5? (+6): At least one rocket uses a 5 engine first stage and a 5 engine second stage.

That's no bull (+2): Trans Munar injection booster is a two-engine cluster, like the Centaur kicker stage. (3X)

Lander

On your space bike (+4): At least one open cockpit lander

Dropping some weight (+3): At least one of the primary or backup Munar surface return vessels leaves behind its Munar descent stage.

Making it count (+2): Earn 'Dropping some weight' and have a powered probe core on the discarded descent stage. Must remain powered at least until the crew lands on Kerbin.

Recovery

Welcome home (+10): Both crew return to Kerbin

We can take it (+3): Be able to safely return to Kerbin on water or land without damage.

Landing gear down (+5): Perform a parachute assisted landing on deployable wheels or skids

Crazy 60's details

We are outta here (+3): The Launch Escape System ejects both crew in their own separate crafts. The Gemini had fighter jet style ejection seats.

We have a reservation (+7): Land a crew on the Mun within 10km of a previously landed empty spacecraft. Must completely perform Munar ascent to Kerbin landing, or dock with a return-capable vessel in Mun orbit.

If i've done math correctly, i should have made 105 point.

Death Engineering, really thanks!!! This was my first challenge, and I really enjoyed flying this mission :D It gave me a completely different gaming experience.

Also, being myself a Gemini fan, the amusement doubled!! :)

If you're going to make another challenge, count me in!!

I'm sorry if my writing or my grammar are bad, it's been like three years since i wrote something this long in english...

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Death Engineering

Death Engineering

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If i've done math correctly, i should have made 105 point.

Raising the bar on this challenge again, borisperrons edges out capi3101 by just 4 points!

Details like the Launch Escape System which uses both solid and liquid fuel and the backup engine on the main lifter totally embrace the Gemini/60's space race ideology of safety and redundancy. Very nice! :cool:

I too am a big fan of the Gemini spacecraft. It was designed by Jim Chamberlin who was also chief designer on the Canadian Avro Arrow fighter-interceptor. Jim was a guy way ahead of his time and was a true visionary who was a key player in not only the Gemini but also Apollo programs.

I am cooking up a new challenge, but working on finishing a Duna Permanent Outpost Challenge as well. Look for a new "what-if" challenge soon! :D

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capi3101

capi3101

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Raising the bar on this challenge again, borisperrons edges out capi3101 by just 4 points!

Was going to call shenanigans - until I took a closer look and saw the parts clipping on the boosters.

It was a good four hours...if only I'd managed to land the CM on land...... ;.;

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CatastrophicFailure

CatastrophicFailure

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So it took a couple weeks but here's my entry, that turned into its own mini-space-program. Mod-heavy so if not the top score at least it's unique :sticktongue:. Life support & communications modeled too. Based on a munar-orbit rendezvous with backup Emergency Return Vehicle/Shelter ala the Gemini LSSS. The Olympus shelter has enough supplies to support two Kerbals for well over 300 days with redundant RTG power for those long Munar nights. Launched in a single stack with an earlier variant Janus two-crew ERV and Cerea transfer stage on the massive Shenandoah launcher. Primary vehicle is the Janus/Centaur/Columbia stack with a 3-day endurance. Two SRBs are added to make the Columbia Heavy launcher. The Janus can make a cis-munar flight without them but lacks an acceptable reserve. Capable of land or water landings although water landings result in a rather unpleasant floating attitude and are reserved for emergencies. Redundant abort modes separate the entire capsule AND leave the crew the option to eject like Gemini. The single open-cockpit lander is Cardea and was some how terminally bugged. Every docking resulted in the whole thing slowly spinning with the physics locked out. And they randomly explode.:huh:

If I'm adding this right then...

Primary mission objective (+20):

Munar Orbit Rendezvous (+6): Using two launches to low Kerbin orbit, separately send two spacecraft to Munar orbit. Once there, dock them together and complete a landing mission.

  • Landing prestige: One Kerbal on the Mun (+7). Second Kerbal on the Mun (+4).

  • Happy together (+3): Both crew members are never separated by more than 10km
  • We're done with that (+3): Detachable support module (Jettison from command module before Kerbin landing at least three of: RCS* cells, electrical systems*, lighting*, legs, retro package*)
  • Just in case (+3): Launch Escape System present

  • Is that a Titan II? (+2): At least one of the rockets uses a two-engine cluster first stage and a single engine cluster second stage.
  • Wow, A Titan III!(+3): At least one of the rockets earns 'Is that a Titan II?' and has two strap on SRB's on the first stage.
  • That looks like Saturn 1B! (+4): At least one of the rockets uses a first stage cluster with 8 engines
  • Won't Apollo miss that Saturn 5? (+6): At least one rocket uses a 5 engine first stage and a 5 engine second stage.
  • That's no bull (+2): Trans Munar injection booster is a two-engine cluster, like the Centaur kicker stage. x3

  • On your space bike (+4): At least one open cockpit lander
  • Dropping some weight (+3): At least one of the primary or backup Munar surface return vessels leaves behind its Munar descent stage.
  • Making it count (+2): Earn 'Dropping some weight' and have a powered probe core on the discarded descent stage. Must remain powered at least until the crew lands on Kerbin.
  • Since we're there (+2): If used, the backup Munar surface return vehicle earns 'Dropping some weight' and 'Making it count'.

  • Welcome home (+10): Both crew return to Kerbin
  • We can take it (+3): Be able to safely return to Kerbin on water or land without damage.
  • Landing gear down (+5): Perform a parachute assisted landing on deployable wheels or skids

  • We are outta here (+3): The Launch Escape System ejects both crew in their own separate crafts. The Gemini had fighter jet style ejection seats. *Not sure if I can legitimately claim this one or not as it specifies "crafts" and I don't know if a space suit qualifies. But I do have the most accurate Gemini abort so far :cool:
  • We have a reservation (+7): Land a crew on the Mun within 10km of a previously landed empty spacecraft. Must completely perform Munar ascent to Kerbin landing, or dock with a return-capable vessel in Mun orbit.

So if I'm adding right (and I'm probably not) that gives me a score of 106. Now if I can get these galleries to work... Everything is rather disjointed & random... I had been planning to try making a vid for the main mission but that was an absolute disaster so I had to cobble together screenies from various points.

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Edited by CatastrophicFailure
imgrrrrrrrrrr
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Death Engineering

Death Engineering

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So if I'm adding right (and I'm probably not) that gives me a score of 106. Now if I can get these galleries to work... Everything is rather disjointed & random... I had been planning to try making a vid for the main mission but that was an absolute disaster so I had to cobble together screenies from various points.

Great looking mod crafts! Your Gemini reminded me of the X-24 lifting body. Very cool! Points for the LES/recovery also awarded. :cool:

turned into its own mini-space-program

That was the plan.. hehe. :wink:

New high score! :D

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  • 8 months later...
WooDzor

WooDzor

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Woodzor's Gemini Mun Landing

I tried this challenge a long time ago and decided to give it another go. The craft is based on what I found on this website. I used a slightly modified version of my Saturn I and a slightly updated version of my Gemini Craft. In addition I added a landing stage in between. (all stock)

Gemini_Mun%20%281%29.png

Saturn I Launch

Gemini_Mun%20%282%29.png

Second Stage orbital burn completed

Gemini_Mun%20%283%29.png

Landing legs seem to be operational

Gemini_Mun%20%284%29.png

oooh

Gemini_Mun%20%285%29.png

Aaaah!

Gemini_Mun%20%286%29.png

I had too much fuel in the Gemini, which resulted in a 3 minute burn to get rid of the excessive fuel (fixed in the craft file)

Gemini_Mun%20%287%29.png

And Mackie and Rumple Kerman (named after my two dogs) are on their way home

Gemini_Mun%20%289%29.png

hoopla!

Gemini_Mun%20%2810%29.png

Home sweet home! Mackie got stuck inside the capsule for some reason the landing resulted in his door being blocked :-)

DOWNLOAD

Primary mission objective (+20):

Possible Launch Profiles:

Direct ascent: Launch one spacecraft and establish a Munar orbit. A second, direct-ascent mission for an emergency craft may be launched.

Bonus points:

Mission

Direct Ascent (+4): Using a single launch, establish a crewed Munar orbit.

Landing prestige: One Kerbal on the Mun (+7). Second Kerbal on the Mun (+4).

Capsule

Happy together (+3): Both crew members are never separated by more than 10km

We're done with that (+3): Detachable support module (Jettison from command module before Kerbin landing at least three of:RCS cells, electrical systems, lighting, legs, retro package)

Lifter

That looks like Saturn 1B! (+4): At least one of the rockets uses a first stage cluster with 8 engines

Lander

Dropping some weight (+3): At least one of the primary or backup Munar surface return vessels leaves behind its Munar descent stage.

Making it count (+2): Earn 'Dropping some weight' and have a powered probe core on the discarded descent stage. Must remain powered at least until the crew lands on Kerbin.

Recovery

Welcome home (+10): Both crew return to Kerbin

We can take it (+3): Be able to safely return to Kerbin on water or land without damage. (not really damaged, just a jammed door)

Total 63 I think :)

Edited by WooDzor
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Death Engineering

Death Engineering

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Woodzor's Gemini Mun Landing

I tried this challenge a long time ago and decided to give it another go. The craft is based on what I found on this website. I used a slightly modified version of my Saturn I and a slightly updated version of my Gemini Craft. In addition I added a landing stage in between. (all stock)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9346020/140622%20Gemini%20Mun%20Challenge/Gemini_Mun%20%281%29.png

Saturn I Launch

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9346020/140622%20Gemini%20Mun%20Challenge/Gemini_Mun%20%282%29.png

Second Stage orbital burn completed

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9346020/140622%20Gemini%20Mun%20Challenge/Gemini_Mun%20%283%29.png

Landing legs seem to be operational

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9346020/140622%20Gemini%20Mun%20Challenge/Gemini_Mun%20%284%29.png

oooh

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9346020/140622%20Gemini%20Mun%20Challenge/Gemini_Mun%20%285%29.png

Aaaah!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9346020/140622%20Gemini%20Mun%20Challenge/Gemini_Mun%20%286%29.png

I had too much fuel in the Gemini, which resulted in a 3 minute burn to get rid of the excessive fuel (fixed in the craft file)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9346020/140622%20Gemini%20Mun%20Challenge/Gemini_Mun%20%287%29.png

And Mackie and Rumple Kerman (named after my two dogs) are on their way home

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9346020/140622%20Gemini%20Mun%20Challenge/Gemini_Mun%20%289%29.png

hoopla!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9346020/140622%20Gemini%20Mun%20Challenge/Gemini_Mun%20%2810%29.png

Home sweet home! Mackie got stuck inside the capsule for some reason the landing resulted in his door being blocked :-)

DOWNLOAD

Primary mission objective (+20):

Possible Launch Profiles:

Direct ascent: Launch one spacecraft and establish a Munar orbit. A second, direct-ascent mission for an emergency craft may be launched.

Bonus points:

Mission

Direct Ascent (+4): Using a single launch, establish a crewed Munar orbit.

Landing prestige: One Kerbal on the Mun (+7). Second Kerbal on the Mun (+4).

Capsule

Happy together (+3): Both crew members are never separated by more than 10km

We're done with that (+3): Detachable support module (Jettison from command module before Kerbin landing at least three of:RCS cells, electrical systems, lighting, legs, retro package)

Lifter

That looks like Saturn 1B! (+4): At least one of the rockets uses a first stage cluster with 8 engines

Lander

Dropping some weight (+3): At least one of the primary or backup Munar surface return vessels leaves behind its Munar descent stage.

Making it count (+2): Earn 'Dropping some weight' and have a powered probe core on the discarded descent stage. Must remain powered at least until the crew lands on Kerbin.

Recovery

Welcome home (+10): Both crew return to Kerbin

We can take it (+3): Be able to safely return to Kerbin on water or land without damage. (not really damaged, just a jammed door)

Total 63 I think :)

Nice to see your Gusmobile back in action! Your craft has awesome replicraft look, and on stock parts. :cool: Cool.

Perhaps your blocked door was a part placement thing? I recall my own attempt at this challenge had multiple bugs due to part placement.

Anyways, great entry.. updated OP. :)

edit: Actually.. just looked again at your entry and see that you had both pilots on the Mun, so not a placement thing.

Edited by Death Engineering
huh..
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WooDzor

WooDzor

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Nice to see your Gusmobile back in action! Your craft has awesome replicraft look, and on stock parts. :cool: Cool.

Perhaps your blocked door was a part placement thing? I recall my own attempt at this challenge had multiple bugs due to part placement.

Anyways, great entry.. updated OP. :)

Weird thing was it was perfectly fine on the Mun. Just during the landing something went wrong, I also had some trouble with the service module.. Thing got stuck but during re-entry it suddenly fell off, probably due to different atmospheric drag on the 2 parts. At the same time, you can't expect too much from a craft that wasn't tested. :D Doing it the Jeb-way 8)

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Northstar1989

Northstar1989

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Possible Launch Profiles:

  1. EOR: 2 Launches. Two spacecraft rendezvous and dock in LKO then proceed to Munar orbit.
  2. LOR: 2 Launches. Two spacecraft rendezvous and dock in Munar orbit and perform a Mun landing.
  3. Direct ascent: Launch one spacecraft and establish a Munar orbit.

Note: An additional launch using Direct Ascent mission profile may be launched if attempting the Munar rescue readiness points ("Got your back" or "We have a reservation").

Bonus points:

Mission

  • Direct Ascent (+4): Using a single launch, establish a crewed Munar orbit.
  • Earth Orbit Rendezvous (+5): Using two launches to low Kerbin orbit, dock two spacecraft. Once docked, send the docked spacecraft to Munar orbit.
  • Munar Orbit Rendezvous (+6): Using two launches to low Kerbin orbit, separately send two spacecraft to Munar orbit. Once there, dock them together and complete a landing mission.

I hate to burst your bubble, but that's NOT how a Lunar (Munar) Orbit Rendezvous mission is done.

The PROPER mission profiles involves the launch of a SINGLE rocket from Kerbin/Earth, which travels to Lunar/Munar orbit. The "Rendezvous" part of the title refers to the detachment of a lander module ONCE IN ORBIT OF THE MOON and then the rendezvous of the lander BACK WITH THE SERVICE MODULE AGAIN after landing of the Lunar/Munar surface:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Orbit_Rendezvous

I don't know where this idea of a "Lunar Orbit Rendezvous" of being assembly of the mission vehicle in orbit of the moon came from (I've seen it on the forum before)- it's wholly inaccurate, NO ORBITAL ASSEMBLY IS REQUIRED FOR A LOR MISSION PROFILE! My best guess is that it's derived from players reading up on the Earth Orbit Rendezvous (which DOES require assembly of the mission vehicle- in Earth Orbit).

There have also been some later hybrid proposals that used BOTH EOR and LOR, as they are not mutually exclusive: such as some versions of Constellation, utilizing the assembly of a transfer vehicle ("Earth Departure Stage"), a Service Module ("Orion"), and a Lander ("Altair") which would be separately launched and assembled in Earth orbit, and then proceed to Lunar orbit where the three would separate, and the Lander would perform an LOR descent/ascent, and the Service Module would return to Earth (in some versions, Altair would remain at a Lagrange Point refueling station, for future landings on the Moon)

Regards,

Northstar

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Death Engineering

Death Engineering

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I'm glad you brought that up! :)

I can't speak on the other references to this phraseology you mention, but the mission profiles I described come from a PC game called "Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space". This game which I purchased fresh off the presses on 5.25" floppy discs and is based on a board game, challenges the player with developing a space program in a race to a lunar landing.

In that game, players have access to a mission profile where two launches of Apollo CSM and LM hardware are launched on two separate missions and rendezvous in lunar orbit. It is not an effective method to win the game quickly, but works okay if other hardware fails and causes reductions in safety (specifically, if the player botches the Saturn V development).

I had to fish out my original docs on the game to get more details, but I have found supporting documentation while poking around on NASA's archives. Anyways, it's a game, ya? But thanks for your interest.

Bubble un-impinged. :)

Edited by Death Engineering
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borisperrons

borisperrons

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Yeah, LOR definition can be a bit tricky. NASA actually considered launching lander and orbiter separately, and having them rendezvous in lunar orbit. Was some sort of contingency plan, in case development of Saturn proved to be impossible.

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Northstar1989

Northstar1989

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Yeah, LOR definition can be a bit tricky. NASA actually considered launching lander and orbiter separately, and having them rendezvous in lunar orbit. Was some sort of contingency plan, in case development of Saturn proved to be impossible.

What you're describing is an Earth Orbit Rendezvous (ERO) plan, basically. There's no advantage in waiting to dock the modules until you get to Moon orbit (which is rather unstable) rather than docking the modules in LEO first and having them head off to the Moon together... Which is why NASA did *NOT* seriously consider a plan such as you are suggesting- any such suggestion was quickly replaced by an ERO plan.

Saturn V wasn't the heaviest rocket proposed/designed, by the way. There was actually a competing series of rocket developed independently, in-house by NASA (Saturn was based of of Von Braun's rocket designs for the US Army), called Nova that would have been even heavier in some of its last revisions... But Saturn was considered more reliable and economical than Nova.

Regards,

Northstar

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Death Engineering

Death Engineering

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The LOR missions in this challenge are based upon ideas brought up by the Gemini project manager (and my personal hero) Jim Chamberlin. In his proposal, Chamberlin laid out mission plans for a Gemini-based lunar landing which could have been accomplished as early as January 1966.

In his proposal, the LM would be launched separate from the Gemini CM on a Titan II. The CM and crew would rendezvous with the LM after being launched on a Saturn C-3. For the puposes of this challenge, I combined those ideas with the mission profiles from BARIS for a Gemini LOR mission, referred in the game as: "Joint Lunar Landing LOR". For the BARIS player trying this low-tech and inexpensive approach to a lunar landing, they would need to develop the lunar TLI module which can only boost one spacecraft to lunar orbit:

"A-KICKER

Program Cost: 12

R&D Cost: 1

Payload Capacity: 1 Spacecraft TLI

A booster package that can propel one spacecraft (capsule

or LM) from Earth orbit to lunar orbit.
Gemini/Voskhod, mini-shuttles, and LMs need a Kicker

to reach lunar orbit. Kickers have payload dead weight

at launch."

Having a personal affinity to Gemini, I've played BARIS with focus on Gemini landings a number of times with success, including a May 1966 lunar landing "win" against the Soviet computer-player. However, that was with two launches and EOR, as BARIS tends to be very unforgiving with mission critical steps and cutting from two TLI burns to one TLI burn is worth spending the time and money to develop a lifter with enough payload capacity to lift the "B-KICKER", which can boost two spacecraft to lunar orbit.

For those interested in BARIS, look here. There are other resources as well, including a freeware version called "Race Into Space".

edit:

BARIS mission planning screen. These images show step "J - Lunar orbit insertion" for the crew, and step "K - Docking" to the LM. On an earlier launch, the LM's equivalent steps are "D - Hardware power-on" (basically a mid-course autonomous systems check) and "E - Lunar orbit insertion". The crew launch mission begins at step "F - Launch".

J - Lunar orbit insertion for crew only

flpznIU.png

K - Docking in lunar orbit to the awaiting LM

GMFRgpe.png

Edited by Death Engineering
add BARIS pics
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