CLOSED -- Flying Duna AGAIN (Thanks for Participating)

[Geschosskopf]

What about just using Karbonite for the ISRU capabilities? (to make other fuels through mining/converters)

I started to reply to this question 5 or 6 times, decided my answer was impolite, deleted it, and started over. And eventually I came to the conclusion that there was no diplomatic way to respond to this question, so I'm not going to. I do have a suggestion, though. Why don't you just do the challenge instead of spending the better part of a year dithering over what mod to use and nit-picking the rules?

The only thing RSS really changes is the *size* of things.

Which is as much to say it changes the fundamental laws of physics of the KSP universe. The entire Kerbol system cannot exist if you apply the laws of physics of this universe to it. Therefore, if you do RSS, you are in a totally different universe than the rest of us who actually play KSP, so don't expect any special accomodation. This is a KSP challenge, not an RSS challenge. Be thankful I'm willing to create a special scoring category for RSS, and leave it at that.

Also, understand that I consider RSS and all other attempts to impose humanocentric preconceptions of "realism" on KSP to be anathema. They ruin KSP as it was intended to be played and will never do anything more than make KSP a kluged type of "Orbiter Lite", which fails to impress those who know Orbiter and annoys those who just want to play KSP. If you want to impress people with your dedication to hardcore realism, play Orbiter. If you want to have fun, play KSP. You can't have both at once.

And this is all I ever want to hear about RSS in this thread. My challenge, my rules. End of story.

[Northstar1989]

I started to reply to this question 5 or 6 times, decided my answer was impolite, deleted it, and started over. And eventually I came to the conclusion that there was no diplomatic way to respond to this question, so I'm not going to. I do have a suggestion, though. Why don't you just do the challenge instead of spending the better part of a year dithering over what mod to use and nit-picking the rules?

Remember, I already sent 5 different vessels with Duna fliers on this Challenge, and documented at least a couple here- then there was a *cough* supernova, and all that progress was lost...

I'll be trying again soon, now that Karbonite is out (which I don't think should add a craft to the Interstellar category if it only uses it for ground-based refueling like Kethane, but this doesn't matter because...) and KSP-Interstellar is updated for 0.24.2

My next attempt will be with Real Solar System 6.4x scale, though, so I need to unlock a few heavier rocketry nodes before I'll have a rocket large enough to launch a plane to orbit (SSTDABK vehicles are much more difficult in RSS 6.4x- and so I probably won't attempt one until I have completed the challenge with a conventional plane/helicopter) and get it to Duna. I'll probably also need to build up the transfer vehicle piece-wise (with 2-3 tank/drive sections) but since none of that will be part of the actual plane/helicopter, I *assume* that's allowed...

Which is as much to say it changes the fundamental laws of physics of the KSP universe. The entire Kerbol system cannot exist if you apply the laws of physics of this universe to it. Therefore, if you do RSS, you are in a totally different universe than the rest of us who actually play KSP, so don't expect any special accomodation. This is a KSP challenge, not an RSS challenge. Be thankful I'm willing to create a special scoring category for RSS, and leave it at that.

Also, understand that I consider RSS and all other attempts to impose humanocentric preconceptions of "realism" on KSP to be anathema. They ruin KSP as it was intended to be played and will never do anything more than make KSP a kluged type of "Orbiter Lite", which fails to impress those who know Orbiter and annoys those who just want to play KSP. If you want to impress people with your dedication to hardcore realism, play Orbiter. If you want to have fun, play KSP. You can't have both at once.

And this is all I ever want to hear about RSS in this thread. My challenge, my rules. End of story.

It's not Real Solar System- at least not the conventional one (where it replaces Kerbin with Earth), I wouldn't ask to use that. It's one of the Kerbol system scale-up's: same planets, same planetary traits (Duna has a thick enough atmosphere to fly in, whereas Mars does not, etc.), just a larger scale that follows more believable materials properties and planetary densities... That being said, having played with it, I think even the 6.4x scale-up is a little too big/hard, and would prefer if there were a 2-3x scale up to the stock game (ideally, one available through the upcoming difficulty sliders system rather than requiring a mod)- which would actually make challenges like this EASIER by making the ground more flat. I'll leave it at that, as I don't want to antagonize you.

Regards,

Northstar

Edited September 27, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

Hey Geschosskopf,

This thread needs some love. How come nobody seems interested in the challenge anymore?

Don't worry- I haven't given up yet! In fact, I just keep getting reasonably close (as in, having most of the necessary parts unlocked) to being ready to attempt this Challenge before another update comes around, and I start over!

A lot of that has been due to my attempting it in Career Mode, and also simultaneously trying to run a Fan Works thread documenting my progress. Fear not, though! Given the choice between a Fan Works thread, and awesome challenges like this, I've opted to shut down my Fan Works thread and just focus on having !FUN! (that's a Dwarf Fortress reference, by the way)

This challenge should be EVEN MORE relevant with the introduction of Aerial Survey contracts (I haven't found out yet- can you get those on Duna???) Even if players just use the skills/techniques they develop for high-altitude exploration aircraft on Kerbin, to build something on Duna, I would expect a lot more entries in the near future if I were you...

If you're not up to maintaining an eye on the challenge, of course, I'm more than happy to open up that alternate version of this challenge I've been talking about for a while (one with significant rules-tweaks: particularly so as to not reward players for spamming Kerbals, or building 200-part behemoths... *cough* "Last Dancer" *cough*) If you're interested, I'd LOVE to have you design a cool badge for those who complete the challenge, whenever I one day get it started- after I submit a complete entry here of course. I'll ask you about that again when I submit an entry of my own.

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 19, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Geschosskopf]

OK, a bit necro but I had to add Brotoro as Honorable Mention. And now we've got a whole new atmosphere and different engine properties to play with. Might as well get started with this again. All welcome.

[Fengist]

Was wondering if you were gonnna revive this for 1.0+ Lemme see what I can come up with.

[Geschosskopf]

Was wondering if you were gonnna revive this for 1.0+ Lemme see what I can come up with.

Great! I look forward to seeing your creation. Brotoro's already got a good head start on us, revising his fuel cell/ion Duna planes to work in 1.0.2 . I was thinking of sticking with Firespitter electric props myself but we'll see how it goes.

[Fengist]

Umm Gesch? Have you been flying on Duna since 1.0? I was just doing some atmospheric tests and I managed escape velocity from a 57 ton air breather without even trying.

[Geschosskopf]

Umm Gesch? Have you been flying on Duna since 1.0? I was just doing some atmospheric tests and I managed escape velocity from a 57 ton air breather without even trying.

Nope, I havne't played with this in 1.x yet. So, how did you get an airbreather working on Duna? Does it have O2 now?

[Geschosskopf]

Hmmm, I see what you mean, Fengist (apart from the air-breathing thing).....

I decided to do a little testing on how Duna's air behaves now in 1.0.2 so I just slapped together a plane based on previous experience, electric Firespitter motor, huge wing area, and lots of control surface. And this 1st attempt totally blew the challenge parameters away on the 1st attempt, without any of the arduous design tweaking previously needed to just barely fly.

This is all stock except the Firespitter electric prop and wheels, plus a Mk2 SAS unit from Mk2 Essentials. The electricity comes from 2 6-pack fuel cells and the only fuel aboard is the tank in the cargo bay, the end adaptors being empty. I then slapped a small rocket stage on the back, HyperEdited to 70km at Duna, used the rocket to de-orbit, staged it, and flew from there. It re-entered no problem and made a perfect landing at 3000m ground altitude, with a touchdown speed of 25m/s.

So then I took off again (ROG at 35m/s) and went to see how high and fast I could go. I got up to nearly 20km and nearly 400m/s before the engine got too hot to run. It coasted up to over 22km before I decided I'd seen enough and dove it vertically back down.

This time the terrain was 2200m and again, a perfect, low-speed, non-dramatic landing.

The Firespitter wheels have optional rover power and I'd set that on the tailwheel only. Using just that, I was able to get up to 30m/s and ROG just from TAXIING.

In other news, I actually had too much control authority. Before 1.x, you needed scads of control surfaces to have any effect at all, but getting too far off your prograde marker put you into a tumble, so flying was a very delicate art. No more of that, though. This thing is fully aerobatic and I was even able to do an aileron roll on final approach just above the ground at 50m/s.

So yeah, flying Duna is no longer a challenge at all. As such, I'm closing this challenge. Thanks to all who participated over the years. Those of us who flew on Duna when it meant something had some amazing adventures together. Wear your crudely drawn patches with pride .

Ironic, eh? Everybody's whining that the new aero made flying too hard, yet we Duna pilots think it's way too easy now

[Fengist]

Yep, my experience was magnified. By air breather, I mean Karbonite jets. Last time I went with electric and Kethane. Even with 10 engines I had issues. This time, I decided to try Karbonite. Wow. Landing at 6,500m was nothing. Hitting 1,500 m/s nothing. Running with the Karbonite filters open at 300m/s and actually GAINING Karbonite... nothing. The bloody eyeball has been blackened.

Taking off from a 6,500m landing

At 833m/s... It's already sub orbital.

By 1000 m/s, you're out of Duna SOI

34km, and even though it says 0 atm intake, the engines are still running... in retrograde no less.

And here I thot I'd need parachutes. Nope.

[Geschosskopf]

Yep, my experience was magnified. By air breather, I mean Karbonite jets. Last time I went with electric and Kethane. Even with 10 engines I had issues. This time, I decided to try Karbonite. Wow. Landing at 6,500m was nothing. Hitting 1,500 m/s nothing. Running with the Karbonite filters open at 300m/s and actually GAINING Karbonite... nothing. The bloody eyeball has been blackened.

Egad, lad! Of course, that's a rocket, not an airplane, but it does show what a Karbonite airplane could do.

Duna's atmosphere has gone from analogous to Mars' ("too thin to do any good, too thick to ignore") to the exact opposite ("so thin you can ignore it at will, but thick enough to fly in effortlessly"). Should we bother making a bug report?

[Fengist]

Should we bother making a bug report?

Ummm, I would expect the canned response, 'working as intended.'

[Geschosskopf]

Ummm, I would expect the canned response, 'working as intended.'

Kinda what I thought. So let's join in the civil unrest in the general forum over things like nosecones and struts

[DaMichel]

Well, it's probably still a nice challenge for FAR users.

The fuel cells make it easier than before. But when i tried it, just landing was a big enough challenge. I don't think this changed with FAR.

I wonder if it is possible to fly on Duna with the realistic prop engine mod for AJE actually. Has anyone ever tried this?

[Geschosskopf]

Well, it's probably still a nice challenge for FAR users. The fuel cells make it easier than before. But when i tried it, just landing was a big enough challenge. I don't think this changed with FAR.

I wonder if it is possible to fly on Duna with the realistic prop engine mod for AJE actually. Has anyone ever tried this?

I haven't messed with FAR in 1.x, but try to keep up with developments. From reading stuff, I get the impression that in general it's easier to fly with FAR than stock these days because FAR lets you reduce drag significantly via its voxel thing, whereas in stock you're stuck with default values.

As to props (or any other engines, for that matter), you need something that works without free-range O2.

[DaMichel]

I just saw this post in the other thread.

Duna's atmosphere has changed significantly from v0.90. Datum level pressure has not changed, but the rate of pressure drop with increasing altitude is much less. The game also now calculates density as a function of pressure, temperature, and molecular weight, unlike before when it was simply a function of pressure. At low altitudes the density of Duna air is less than pre-1.0; however, at high altitudes it is much greater. At the datum level, Duna air is about half as dense as before, at 3000 m it's about the same, and at 6000 m it's about twice as dense. By the time we get to 15000 m, the air is more the 10 times denser than v0.90.

I guess this means that flying with FAR will be easier, too. My earlier guess was that the easier flying in stock comes from the new aerodynamic force model alone. But that was wrong apparently.