Modular Fuel System Continued v3.3 (OBSOLETE)

[NathanKell]

I sent him the code. Haven't heard back. I'll recompile my fork.

[Starwaster]

thats very interesting what you're trying to do with the G8D.

I don't know if it's because the no-shroud version is different but I have the auto-shrouded version and the attachment nodes are too far away from the engine.

[NathanKell]

Did they change the rescaleFactor or scale in one of the later KW updates? It was fine back when I first did it.

....ah. Yes. I'll fix it.

[AbeS]

there's also a minor bug with the KW side tanks, the info of modular fuel tanks on those are shown twice.

[Chestburster]

Delete the kw 2.5 patch config. It was included by mistake and is obsolete. That will remove the second tank.

[amo28]

Nathan, any chance to keep a link for V2 up while you're Alpha'ing the realistic version? Or maybe just a link to the previous versions of the Engines.cfg that went based off your spreadsheet?

[NathanKell]

Oh, apologies.

That would have been smart.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fw7oklfkljy827u/ModularFuelSystemCont_v2.zip

Thanks for the idea!

[rhoark]

So is RealFuels with stock planet size supported in V3 or not?

[NathanKell]

Yes. That's the default.

To switch to realisticMass mode, change the setting to = true.

[Zander]

This extraction process is confusing. Can we just get 2 downloads with everything properly configured instead of having to go in and try to extract zips into the proper folders. I keep trying and i keep doing it wrong.

Could we just have an earth size kerbin realistic fuel download option and a stock kerbin download option?

2nd what is tech level? In the VAB the engines give an option for increasing or decreasing tech level. But i cant find any explanation of what this is supposed to represent. What does changing the tech level do and why do we have this option?

thanks

Edited October 25, 2013 by Zander

[amo28]

Nathan, thanks for the V2 link. I found an issue that I'm not sure I know how to trace back. But using the V3, I found while building in the VAB my Novapunch 2.03 engines were displaying as if they were at full throttle. Switching back to V2, and this problem goes away. I tried just using the engines.cfg in V2 with the rest of a V3 installation, but the problem persisted. Maybe it's something in the Novapunch config only?

And Zander, all you have to do is extract the MFS folder and ModuleManager.dll into your \Gamedata directory. Then, only if you want to use RealFuels, you extract the RealFuels.zip inside your ModularFuelSystem folder.

Also, I second the request for more info about the tech levels. For the sake of realism, should I match my engine tech level to my current research level in the tech tree?

Thanks again for your work on this.

[p1t1o]

Also, I second the request for more info about the tech levels. For the sake of realism, should I match my engine tech level to my current research level in the tech tree?

Thanks again for your work on this.

Why are engine tech levels variable? Personally I leave them alone as I don't want a magic "easy mode". Is it part of an as-yet-unimplemented feature?

I don't remember noticing but does the cost of an engine change as you alter the tech level?

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

How does one set realistic masses?

[NathanKell]

@TheCanadianVendingMachine, You must be running Modular Fuel System Continued v3

You must be running Real Fuels version of it (have extracted the RealFuel.zip file to the ModularFuelTanks folder)

Then go into that new RealFuels folder. Open RealSettings.cfg. Change the line

useRealisticMass = false

to

useRealisticMass = true

Zander, while I am happy to send you a preconfigured archive if you need one, I would prefer not to constantly maintain three different archives. That will, IMO, prove more confusing to people than having the one archive.

Regarding tech levels.

I implemented the system before .22 hit, and since I've been busy rescaling Kerbin I haven't integrated it into the tech tree.

First, let me run down how the system works; second, I'll tell you how I recommend you use it.

In order to have realistic engine performance, MFSC divides engines into types and tech levels. While type cannot be changed in game (it is determined by chamber pressure, area ratio, cycle type, etc., all abstracted as "engine type" and applied, as well as can be done given how unrealistic most KSP engine models are, to most stock and mod engines), tech level can. Tech level represents the advances that are applied to a specific model of engine over time.

For example, the venerable LR87 used in the Titan rocket went through upwards of 11 revisions over time, and was converted to use all three main fuel types (kerolox, i.e. Liquid Fuel [kerosene] and Liquid Oxygen; hypergolic NTO / Aerozine-50, simulated through the similar NTO/MMH combination ingame; and hydrolox, i..e. Liquid Hydrogen and LOX). Its Isp and thrust-to-weight ratio increased considerably through revision.

Terms: SL = sea level, TWR = thrust to weight ratio. Note that in MFSC, all engines include the mass of their thrust plate, so MFSC TWRs will be about 20-30% lower than real life engine stats.

So, first MFSC classifies each engine it supports by type. The types are:

O = Orbital maneuvering system (like the Apollo SPS or the Shuttle OMS, designed for tons and tons of restarts, and vacuum-only use). High vac Isp, very poor SL isp, lowest TWR. Example: LV-1, LV-909, Poodle. Usually hypergolic.

U = Upper stage. At most a couple restarts. Same Vac Isp as O, better SL Isp, better TWR. Like the Titan's LR-91. KSP doesn't really have any of these, they'd somewhere between the LV-909 and the LV-T45. Given the way it's shaped, I made the Skipper one, for example.

U+ = Upper stage optimized for vac use. Highest Vac Isp (higher than O). Lower TWR than U. That's what + means, higher vac, lower SL, lower TWR. Real life: Centaur's RL-10. KSP: doesn't have any examples, but KW's Apollo-SPS lookalike performs like one (though it is properly made Type O by me). Hydrolox is the fuel mode of choice.

L = lower stage. No restarts. Lowest Vac Isp, highest SL Isp barring Aerospike, highest TWR. Real life: Saturn V's F-1. Stock KSP: the Mainsail, obviously. (Although with its Isp unchanged, it's really an L+, so that's how I rate it.) Fuel is usually kerolox, though could be hypergolic or even hydrolox.

L+ = same changes as U+: higher IspV, lower IspSL, lower TWR. Designed for a single-stage-to-orbit stack (or at least an engine that's never staged away even if boosters are). Example: Space Shuttle SSME. KSP example: LV-T45.

A = Aerospike. Note that in real life nozzle losses are only 15% or so, and most of the efficiency loss at sea level is because there's air there, not because the nozzle is the wrong shape. For now they have the Isp of a U in vacuum, and 0.9x that at sea level. Real life examples: J-2T-250k (plug nozzle mod of the Saturn V J-2), the linear aerospike on the X-33. KSP Examples: obvious.

S = Solid.

S+ = Solid for vac use, lower SL, higher Vac Isp.

Note that I haven't integrated support for HoneyFox's engine ignition mod, so all the talk of restarts is just for information purposes.

What Isp an engine has is determind by grabbing its type, checking its tech level, and getting the appropriate entry in the TLTIsps area of RealSettings.cfg. Then any appropriate multipliers are applied: Hydrolox gets 1.3x to Vac Isp and an engine-specific amount (usually less than 1.3) to IspSL. Hypergolic fuel mode gets only 95% of the Isp in either case.

Engines have minimum tech levels; they aren't available before that. You can, however, upgrade past that.

===============================================

Now, as to how I recommend using tech levels. Note that the KSP tech tree has, roughly speaking, tiers, going from left to right. Start = TL0. When you've researched all techs in the tier after that, you get TL1. When you've researched all techs in the tier after that, you get access to TL2. And so forth. If there are any remaining TLs, you get them all at the end, or impose a delay on yourself.

(Eventually I will make this happen by code. For now, you're on your honor.)

You ARE, however, highly encourage to upgrade any engine, after placing it in the VAB, to your maximum available TL. So if you've researched 3 tiers of KSP techs, upgrade that LV-T45 to TL3! Otherwise your Isp will be horrific.

Rough TL to year comparison:

TL0: 1945+, WW2 and immediate postwar

TL1: 1955+, early Space Age rockets, Sputnik

TL2: 1960+, Mercury

TL3: 1963+, Gemini, early Apollo stuff

TL4: 1968+, Late Apollo

TL5: 1972+, Apollo Applications Program, etc.

TL6: 1980+, the Shuttle era

Tl7: The present day.

[NathanKell]

Also, yes, if you're running Mission Controller Extended, cost does change for procedural parts. And these engines are half-procedural.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Ah, well you see. I don't have "RealSettings.cfg".

[NathanKell]

Did you extract RealFuels.zip?

You only get real settings if you're playing in real mode.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Yes. With 7-zip and the default extractor. I have the files of all the engine cfgs and resources, but no RealSettings.cfg

[NathanKell]

And you downloaded ModularFuelSystemCont_v3.zip?

EDIT:

@amo28, sorry, missed the bit about KW. I think that was a bug I fixed for v3, but I don't have unchanged-thrust-and-mass configs for v3 yet. Try v3 just in case and see if it goes away.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Turns out I didn't download v3. Thanks!

[NathanKell]

You're most welcome!

[cardajowol]

so I do like the realistic fuel mod, nice you added the Hypergolic fuels, just 1 or 2 things you've missed tho, the small fuel tanks.. the side ones I think from KSPX and erm KW.. was it... well you added N2O4 to the oxidizers but didn't add the NMH/Aerozine to the fuel one... also the KW rocketry you keep forgetting the Short 3x1,2x1 and 4x1 fuel tanks the ones that like adapters from 3.75 to 2.5 etc etc.

Also I'm little unsure why you only added certain fuel to engines... why not have them all have the choice between LOX + Kerosene or LH2 or even the Hypergolic ones. Even then why have the large 5 bearcat engines in Novapunch only use LH2+LOX? that engine.. if at all resembling real life used LOX+Kerosene.

[NathanKell]

1. Thanks for the catches. I'll fix.

2. v3 Alpha uses my own custom configs for now; I tried to make each engine a specific engine with only sparing fuel-change options (it ain't easy to change fuel type on an engine!). In fact I think the LR-87 is the only rocket engine in history to operate on all three basic types, and conversion required extensive changes in each case. But I think that for more stock-like play, it makes sense to open up most engines to most types.

Regarding the S2 Bearcats: because they had low thrust for their diameter, and because IMO they look like the SSME, which is hydrolox only. Though on taking another look...bah, KSP engines almost never look like real engines, so who knows.

[regex]

Is the engine spreadsheet good for the v2 version? I have to adapt all your Real Fuel engine configs over to my personal stuff (mostly Squad stats using KW and AIES art).

[NathanKell]

v3 alpha uses my own one; I'm still updating the google docs one. YGPM.