[0.24.2] More Fuel Types (aka. NEARFuels) - VER 1.3

[saabstory88]

Greetings,

This is the first release version of More Fuel Types (or NEARFuels, as NathanKell put it). This pack should be stable enough for the general public, but I really need more feedback to hone it in. The whole thing has been a fun Labor Day Weekend project. This is a total fuel overhaul, designed to adapt to new mods, and to lack the need for specific engine configs. It has basic boil-off simulation, with the ability to use electricity to store your fuels for long periods of time.

Major note from dev thread:

As I have seen that there are a variety of fuel systems and tech trees, the eventual goal of this project must be to compile all of the config settings logic into a .dll so massive, that it will have appreciable gravity. The end game here must be to use this, to analyze parts on a per part basis, determine if mods are involved, and adjust settings procedurally. There is really no other way to do this. Truly, I invite people to come help on this project, because if I am left to my own devices, it may take till 0.26 to do such a thing. But this is really what needs to happen. Code needs to be written, which identifies what a part is FOR, what properties it HAS, and what dependencies it USES, and create a procedurally crafted modded config file for EACH PART. This must be the only way forward. I will continue development of the current setup for at least the next week, to make it play nice with most major mod deployments which include fuel dependencies, but then, I will be moving to the juggernaut .dll development only. Now that's out of the way...

Disclaimer:

This mod is meant to present a challenge, and to force you to make choices. This is not a pack of wonder fuels. Not all engines will be able to run on all things. This is INTENTIONAL. If you want more variety with no extra challenge, there are plenty of mods which can provide that. If you took a look at Real Fuels and thought, "maybe a simpler version would be nice", then this mod is for you. If you have a compatibility question, or want to know what I am adding next, please check the dev thread at the bottom. Also, some Squad parts are still broken .

What this Mod is:

-Add more fuel types to the game, to create a more dynamic experience

-Integrates new fuel types as you progress through the tech tree

-Creates issues with storing cryogenic fuels long term

-Cryogenic storage systems, which consume electricity to refrigerate fuel

-Works perfectly with KW Rocketry

-Searches for engines and fuel tanks (even from mods*) and adjusts them accordingly

-Full Procedural Parts integration

-Sets up the groundwork for a better ISRU model

-Integrates with the Community Resource Pack, so it won't break your mods

-Is ready for full ORS compatibility

*some parts mods use dependencies for tank switching, this is still a WIP

Fuel Types:

-Liquid Oxygen/Liquid Hydrogen - High ISP, but difficult to store

-Liquid Oxygen/Methane - Lower ISP, but can be created in CO2 atmospheres (ie. Duna)

-Liquid Oxygen/Kerosene - Lower ISP, but Kerosene is also Jet Fuel

-Hydrazine/Aerozine - Lower ISP, but is inert, and Hydrazine can be used as Monopropellant

-Liquid Hydrogen - This is now the only fuel type needed for NERVA engines

-Hydrazine - This is now MonoPropellant

-Liquid Oxygen/Solid Fuel - Thanks to Procedural Parts, procedural hybrid engines are now implemented. Higher performance, and higher price than simple solid boosters.

Who to thank:

AncientGammoner, NathanKell, Swamp Ig, and all the contributors to procedurals

NathanKell specifically, for both helping me through the first steps with MM, as well as Real Fuels, which in no small way inspired me to write this (as well as his other work)

RoverDude, for guidance on CRP

Dr. Robert Zubrin, for further inspiration

And most of all, those who have downloaded, tested, and commented, as they have shown me the way forward.

Change Log:

V1.0- 

First release!

V1.1-

Rebalanced boil-off and refrigerant numbers to take mass into account. This is a massive gameplay improvement, as a full orange tank takes nearly 120 ec/s to refrigerate! VAB and SPH still bugged though...

V1.2-

CRP now included on KerbalStuff Download

V1.25-

Boil-off code patched

V1.3

Tentative B9 compatibility update! 

Download Materials:

Source included in download.

Here are the packages required for the mod:

1. Procedural Parts: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/70676-0-24-2WIP-Procedural-Parts-Parts-the-way-you-want-em-0-9-18-Aug-6

2. ORS. This now includes the basics for ORS based Methane production on Duna: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64595-Open-Resource-System-(ORS)-Mod-Resource-API-version-1-1-0

3. The More Fuel Types Mod and ProceduralParts configs: http://beta.kerbalstuff.com/mod/133/More%20Fuel%20Types%20%28aka.%20NEARFuels%29

3.1 Manual Installation of 3 .cfg files for B9: You must manually copy three configs, included in this pack, to their listed B9 folders if you want to use those engines. MM does not have a good way of dealing with multi-mode engines yet.

4. CRP, on which the mod is now dependent (included now in above download, for those finding this on KerbalStuff alone): http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/89568-Community-Resource-Pack-WIP

5. This REQUIRES module manager if you don't already have it: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/55219-Module-Manager-1-5-6-%28Jan-6%29

WARNING: This mod might break your saves!

What to do after:

Please, post, comment, suggest, and contribute! I need all the help I can get. I would love to be able to edit this to say "We need all the help we can get". If nothing else, test it out, and tell me what breaks.

Dev thread: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/92433-WIP-0-24-2-More-Fuel-Types-Adapts-to-new-mods-no-engine-configs-needed

License:

CC BY-SA 3.0 US: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/

This is to comply with the license which applies to Procedural Parts. They have not endorsed this mod, but still, thanks guys!

Edited September 6, 2014 by saabstory88
Bugs/New Version

[Joshwoo70]

Hm... thought Realism overhaul adds kerosene. Methane added by KSPI. Intresting concept though!

[Ralathon]

Does this adjust the engine TWR's to make them suitable for a Real Solar System install? Stock engines are too heavy to make that viable.

[saabstory88]

Hm... thought Realism overhaul adds kerosene. Methane added by KSPI. Intresting concept though!

This does not conflict with KSPI. KSPI i integrated into the CRP, so the fuel type is the same. The point of this is to be a simpler version of RealFuels which does not need special configuration files, and does not rely on modular fuels.

Does this adjust the engine TWR's to make them suitable for a Real Solar System install? Stock engines are too heavy to make that viable.

This is not for RSS (the engines do not scale their TWR). This is meant to add just a little more complexity to the regular sized Kerbal system, and set up the basis for future ISRU. Again, the masses and costs of the fuels are balanced to Kerbal standards, not to STP as with RF. This is why NathanKell's description of this mod as "NEARFuels" is spot on. It's not full stop Ferram, it's just a little bit easier.

That being said, for people who like the 6.4x Kerbal rescale, this Mod plays very nicely. Starting to imagine a full "RSS/RO lite" down the road.

Edited September 2, 2014 by saabstory88

[Guest]

Does it work with the new B9 tanks and AJE? I'd like to use it instead of RF, but

Also, a suggestion. "Jet Fuel" as an option beside Kerosene. The only difference from Kerosene would be that it'd drain like monoprop-from all tanks at once. This is to reduce complexity of airplane balancing (COM moves around less that way) and solve problems with fuel crossfeed in wings (basically, fuel-carrying wings don't work well with normal fuel drain mechanism).

[saabstory88]

Does it work with the new B9 tanks and AJE? I'd like to use it instead of RF, but

Also, a suggestion. "Jet Fuel" as an option beside Kerosene. The only difference from Kerosene would be that it'd drain like monoprop-from all tanks at once. This is to reduce complexity of airplane balancing (COM moves around less that way) and solve problems with fuel crossfeed in wings (basically, fuel-carrying wings don't work well with normal fuel drain mechanism).

The tanks and fuels should be automatically detected and replaced. It is likely that it will generate these tanks as LH2/LOX tanks, however, if it does not find these, it will simply leave the stock contents alone. I am still doing some other compatibility checks before I tackle the B9 behemoth for full integration. If you do try it out, I would love to hear back how it breaks, although I will get to it.

The reason that the Jet engines use Kerosene, is because Jet fuel is basically Kerosene. I wanted to try to limit the types of fuel, and give everything a dual purpose, just for balanced gameplay. This may not make things better for the fuel flow in aircraft, but it won't make them worse.

Edited September 2, 2014 by saabstory88
grammer

[Raptor831]

Hey! Nicely done. ialdabaoth (original Real Fuels modder) was suggesting something like this for Real Fuels, which I think fits nicely between stock and the Realism mods.

Does it work with the new B9 tanks and AJE? I'd like to use it instead of RF, but

I don't remember exactly, but I think AJE only adjusts the engines to use Kerosene (as far as fuels go). So I don't know why it would break. It is expecting proper volume/density units, so I don't know if that would mess with anything. You might run out of fuel a lot faster than usual.

[Nori]

Looks pretty cool.

Questions, you added the Vernor extended engines, but all of the fuel types look like they have the same thrust and ISP. Shouldn't the H2 versions have higher ISP?

In the enginefuelreplacer.cfg it is modifying ISP from what I can tell. Is this going to completely replace the ISP values on engines?

[kiwiak]

Can you show some screens, for example how these cryo system parts look like?

[saabstory88]

Looks pretty cool.

Questions, you added the Vernor extended engines, but all of the fuel types look like they have the same thrust and ISP. Shouldn't the H2 versions have higher ISP?

In the enginefuelreplacer.cfg it is modifying ISP from what I can tell. Is this going to completely replace the ISP values on engines?

Good catch on the Vernor ISP. My normal engine replacement doesn't handle it because it's not an engine module. I will push an update for this soon.

Yes, engine ISP max is determined by the fuel type for simplicity. It does not replace the atmospheric ISP though.

[bs1110101]

Having looked through the files and not found any configs for the engines, what's the deal with that? Does it even need engine configs?

[saabstory88]

Having looked through the files and not found any configs for the engines, what's the deal with that? Does it even need engine configs?

Nope. No engine configs needed! It should find most engines automatically.

[Guest]

The tanks and fuels should be automatically detected and replaced. It is likely that it will generate these tanks as LH2/LOX tanks, however, if it does not find these, it will simply leave the stock contents alone. I am still doing some other compatibility checks before I tackle the B9 behemoth for full integration. If you do try it out, I would love to hear back how it breaks, although I will get to it.

Except that B9 fuel tanks don't use the stock modules. They use FSFuelSwitch in order to compress many similar parts into one. Does it work well with NEARFuels?

[bs1110101]

No configs? How does it manage that? I've tried to make that work, first wanting to do it in module manager, then writing a program to make configs for me. Ether way, this is awesome as the problem with Real Fuels because i always do this: 1 I'm bored of stock generic fuels, I'll install Real Fuels! 2 Yay realism! Wait, why doesn't that work right? No configs? Oh, i'll just use this engine- no, that doesn't have configs ether. 3 Rage uninstall!

On a more serious note, how do you make configs for odd things, in my case a LATNR. Also, can you make it so thermal engines (NTRs, arcjets, tosterjets(my comical name for the resistojet) and anything else like that.) work with any fuel, with ISP and thrust being tied to fuel density. The Russians wanted to use ammonia or ammonia and alcohol as a fuel for a NTR powered ICBM, this never really got anywhere, but the ability to cram whatever fuel through them would be nice.

[saabstory88]

Except that B9 fuel tanks don't use the stock modules. They use FSFuelSwitch in order to compress many similar parts into one. Does it work well with NEARFuels?

I have not checked agaislnst the latest B9 release. Now that it is out, I will make that my next priority. Because it was in development, I had not yet compiled against it. This should be an exception *most parts mods use normal tank layouts.

[Nori]

No configs? How does it manage that? I've tried to make that work, first wanting to do it in module manager, then writing a program to make configs for me. Ether way, this is awesome as the problem with Real Fuels because i always do this: 1 I'm bored of stock generic fuels, I'll install Real Fuels! 2 Yay realism! Wait, why doesn't that work right? No configs? Oh, i'll just use this engine- no, that doesn't have configs ether. 3 Rage uninstall!

On a more serious note, how do you make configs for odd things, in my case a LATNR. Also, can you make it so thermal engines (NTRs, arcjets, tosterjets(my comical name for the resistojet) and anything else like that.) work with any fuel, with ISP and thrust being tied to fuel density. The Russians wanted to use ammonia or ammonia and alcohol as a fuel for a NTR powered ICBM, this never really got anywhere, but the ability to cram whatever fuel through them would be nice.

It is simply looking for any ModuleEngine or ModuleEngineFX that use a propellent and replacing the propellent with a "NEARFuels" option.

[saabstory88]

It is simply looking for any ModuleEngine or ModuleEngineFX that use a propellent and replacing the propellent with a "NEARFuels" option.

Correct. I am working to improve the varieties of engines it can configure, and what tech tree nodes it looks at to generate these configs. Eventually I will get to the point where a .DLL handles all this with higher logic being applied, but for now, this approach works fine with most parts mods. This approach is also not destructive to say, Near Future, because it does not filter by their fuel types. I know thy B9 is going to require a custom config, but this method already works flawlessly with KW rocketry, and for the most part AEIS. This is just the first stable, playable, version. It will continue to be improved.

[BadRocketsCo.]

Sounds cool!

But, how is it different from RealFuels?

[schoff123]

I really love the idea behind this mod, as i've been feeling a little unsatisfied with the fuel types in the stock game.

One little thing, you say hydrazine is inert, what do you mean? Because hydrazine is very, very flammable and corrosive. (I'm assuming you mean that it is inert "storage" wise?)

[bs1110101]

How exactly do i cram different fuel into tanks or switch fuels for engines? I cant find a way to switch them or anything, am i just blind or is it a mod conflict or something?

[panarchist]

Will you have an alternative to using power to maintain cryogenic fuels? In real life space programs, there are 2 main ways to maintain cryo fuels - either a lot of electricity, or by venting off a small amount of the liquid stored in the tank, which lowers the temperature of the remaining liquid inside. It'd be great to see both methods modeled.

[saabstory88]

Sounds cool!

But, how is it different from RealFuels?

Read the description. It is designed to play well with career mode and stock and near as stock(kW) parts.

I really love the idea behind this mod, as i've been feeling a little unsatisfied with the fuel types in the stock game.

One little thing, you say hydrazine is inert, what do you mean? Because hydrazine is very, very flammable and corrosive. (I'm assuming you mean that it is inert "storage" wise?)

Yes, I am speaking to the game play aspects, not chemical composition. Hydrazine and Aerozine are not handled by the boil off code.

How exactly do i cram different fuel into tanks or switch fuels for engines? I cant find a way to switch them or anything, am i just blind or is it a mod conflict or something?

When you install the procedural parts pack properly, as listed in the readme, you will see that you can now select the proper fuel mixture for any given engine, using procedural parts. Procedural parts are integrated into the tech tree properly, so it will not break your career. Furthermore, you can always use tweakscale to select different engine sizes for a given fuel.

[saabstory88]

Will you have an alternative to using power to maintain cryogenic fuels? In real life space programs, there are 2 main ways to maintain cryo fuels - either a lot of electricity, or by venting off a small amount of the liquid stored in the tank, which lowers the temperature of the remaining liquid inside. It'd be great to see both methods modeled.

Right now, when a tank is created, a cryogenic module is attached. If you leave it off, liquid cryogenic materials will vent. This is based on tank mass. Also, you can choose to run the refrigeration loop, which consume electricity based on tank volume. A large 5meter KW tank can take as much as 500 electric charge per second! Smaller tanks will consume much less electricity.

[bs1110101]

When you install the procedural parts pack properly, as listed in the readme, you will see that you can now select the proper fuel mixture for any given engine, using procedural parts. Procedural parts are integrated into the tech tree properly, so it will not break your career. Furthermore, you can always use tweakscale to select different engine sizes for a given fuel.

I see no way to set the fuel fix for engines or change the fuel in non procedural part tanks, and i've reinstalled it twice now.

[saabstory88]

I see no way to set the fuel fix for engines or change the fuel in non procedural part tanks, and i've reinstalled it twice now.

You are not intended to do either of those things, This is supposed to be a challenge. The procedural parts works because they also have tech limits. You are not supposed to be able to just put any tank on any engine, or to be able to use all things interchangeably, that is literally half the point of the entire mod, to make things harder. This is not meant to be something that gives you a bounty of new items, which can do all things, but to make you have to make choices about what you use on your missions.