KerbalEDU for existing Squad customers?

[Camacha]

Can I take it that KerbalEDU can be, by virtue of Squad's previous promise to make all updates, expansions and DLC free for people that bought KSP before a certain date, downloaded by these people free of charge?

-mod comment: this thread contains posts copied over from another thread-

Edited December 30, 2014 by KasperVld

[sal_vager]

Sorry Camacha but all the KerbalEDU components were made by another company and not by Squad.

KerbalEDU is not a Squad expansion to, DLC for, or update to the Kerbal Space Program software.

When Squad make an expansion it'll be free only to those who made purchases of the Kerbal Space Program software before May 2013.

[Camacha]

Sorry Camacha but all the KerbalEDU components were made by another company and not by Squad.

KerbalEDU is not a Squad expansion to, DLC for, or update to the Kerbal Space Program software.

I do not see how who made it is relevant - the fact that it is quite obviously a direct derivative of, and addition to Kerbal Space Program with only a relative minimum of changes is This firmly puts in under the expansion category. If there ever was any doubt, the first post of this thread and other announcements remove it. Without trying to be a hard-ass, it is no use denying it.

It is a version the the Kerbal Space Program we bought, accessible for schools:

Some of you may have heard that us, TeacherGaming LLC and Squad have been working together to make Kerbal Space Program more accessible for schools.

A remix of Kerbal Space Program, not another program or game:

A school-ready remix of KSP for with added features to help building rockets, record flight details and create and share missions. These features are designed to be used in schools, but many of them will be very useful to home players too.

A more affordable version of KSP, the game of which Squad promised all expansions, updates and DLC for:

Part of our collaboration with Squad is to make KSP also more affordable to educational institutions.

Also, the announcement states that it is a modification of KSP:

KerbalEdu, an educationally-enhanced modification of the popular, award-winning space agency game, Kerbal Space Program, has launched its first update which fully integrates features that are exclusive to the classroom.

While also calling it an update:

Among the many notable features in this update are

With Squad promising:

all future updates for free

Finally, the text on the website states KerbalEDU is an expansion of KSP, as it adds to it:

In addition to all the fun and engagaging gameplay in Kerbal Space Program, KerbalEdu includes multiple tools for easier data gathering and integration with other school topics.

[sal_vager]

Eeh, no.

If cardboardboxprocessor released an addon and charged for it, you would not get very far asking for it for free because you bought KSP.

KerbalEDU is a 3rd party addon.

If you have an issue with this you can email Squad at [email protected]

[Camacha]

If cardboardboxprocessor released an addon and charged for it, you would not get very far asking for it for free because you bought KSP.

I assume you understand that does not compute. Not only are all the communications tightly intertwined, including having both logos on the posters, we are even discussing this in a thread on the offical Kerbal Space Program. It is obvious Squad is an integral part of this version. If you read the above quotes you will even find Squad representatives quite literally saying so. Regardless, Squad made a promise about updates and expansions. If they decided to outsource part of the development, it changes nothing about the promise Squad made - that all future updates and expansions were to be made available for people that bought KSP before a certain date. However they need to arrange that is up to them, what the result should be is clear.

I will gladly discuss any claims beyond nu-uh, is so!, but I think we are at the point where claims that KerbalEDU is a separate entity have become a bit silly. The question that remains is how Squad is going to honour its promise and commitment to its customers and fans.

[sal_vager]

Camacha, you are expecting Squad to approach another company (TeacherGaming) that has made its own addon for KSP, which it has done so of its own volition, and where Squad have been kind enough to support their action and to make KSP available for this endeavour, in order to tell them that sorry, you have to give your work away for free to people who happened to buy our (Squads) software before a certain date because we had to promise them that any extensions we (Squad) make would be free for them.

Lets forget for a moment that all this stemmed from an unpleasant time when players confused updates with expansions, and were upset about an off-hand comment about DLC, and conflated that with an undeserved perception of what DLC is, Squad still bent over backwards for their fans and promised that expansions as well as updates would be free to early adopters.

Some things you are going to get for free, expansions and updates from Squad for Kerbal Space Program are one of them if you bought the game prior to May 2013, updates only for purchasers after that point, and Squad have already made both the footballs and the ARM pack available.

Some things you won't get, an you really should not expect to get for free, these being 3rd party works made for or based on KSP by other groups.

TeacherGaming are working on releasing a version of their software for KSP without an included KSP license for current KSP owners, but you can not expect them to provide you with their software free of charge, it is a 3rd party addon and as such it is not subject to the Squad expansions promise.

Squads promise still stands for Squads own software.

It's really not hard to understand, and you can be as clever with language as you like but no, you're not getting a free copy

[KasperVld]

I can confirm that the KerbalEDU program in its entirety will not be available for free to existing customers who bought KSP. The reason is simple and sal_vager did a good job at explaining that earlier: KerbalEDU is a product offered by a different company (TeacherGaming LLC). It's essentially a set of new features (not unlike a very big mod) that work with the game. Purchasing KerbalEDU is done through their website and Squad has collaborated with them by implementing certain hooks, tweaks or framework into KSP, much like they cooperate with modders. A purchase of KerbalEDU includes a (set of) license(s) for KSP, which is required to play the mod. In this structure, TeacherGaming LLC resells KSP, tied in with its own product. Regardless of how close the cooperation between Squad and TeacherGaming was, the KerbaleEDU mod is a product made and offered by another company and as such the claim that it should be released for free to existing customers simply does not hold.

Or, to put it visually:

Edited December 30, 2014 by KasperVld

[Red Iron Crown]

TeacherGaming are working on releasing a version of their software for KSP without an included KSP license for current KSP owners

You have my attention. If TeacherGaming's product is just a mod for KSP, is there much more work than packaging the mod and determining price?

[Falkon]

Camacha, you are expecting Squad to approach another company (TeacherGaming) that has made its own addon for KSP, which it has done so of its own volition, and where Squad have been kind enough to support their action and to make KSP available for this endeavour, in order to tell them that sorry, you have to give your work away for free to people who happened to buy our (Squads) software before a certain date because we had to promise them that any extensions we (Squad) make would be free for them.

Perhaps I'm incorrect, but Kerbal Space Program is a registered trademark (http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:dx7yn1.2.1) in addition to owning copyright rights to the use of their material.

As such, use of KSP for selling KerbalEDU would require authorization. It wouldn't be that difficult for KSP to say - sure....you can use our name, but you have to allow our existing customers to have free access to it. Otherwise, you can't sell your product. In fact, as you had addressed above, they made their product available for free - but if you look at this in terms of a "contract" under which we did buy this game, I don't know that they can simply give that permission without requiring their current customers be given free access. In essence, they can't enter a new contractual agreement with TeacherGaming if it undermines the existing contract. Otherwise, what would stop them from creating a new company to carry on all further development of KSP and no longer offer any further updates to their existing customers? (Aside from bad PR and destroying the support of their entire customer base)

In the end, KerbalEDU is a worthwhile cause if it's intent is to bring a fun game such as this into the schools, but to say that they have no control over how their product is used seems misleading to me.

[sal_vager]

Falcon, see KasperVld's post here.

In the end, KerbalEDU is a worthwhile cause if it's intent is to bring a fun game such as this into the schools, but to say that they have no control over how their product is used seems misleading to me.

Emphasis mine, no one said this, and to claim otherwise is disingenuous.

The contract is anything but, there was a licence agreement between Squad and the purchaser of KSP that stated that squad would provide updates to KSP without charge to people who bought a license for KSP during its development, but the word "update" became confused with the words "expansion" and "DLC".

The rest I've already covered above, as much as we'd all like to get our hands on the EDU part of KerbalEDU we'll have to buy it from TeacherGaming, not from Squad.

Much the same that if you want MinecraftEDU, you have to buy it even if you already own a licence for Minecraft.

I hear that the EDU parts are going to be made available separately but may not be complete, I'd rather have the whole thing, it's worth asking TeacherGaming to not nerf the separate product.

[Falkon]

It wasn't my intent to make it appear that you said something you didn't. However....without saying those specific words, you essentially conveyed the same message in the part of your message that I quoted above.

The point of my message was that since they own all the rights to the Kerbal name and any products that are made for sale utilizing that name, they have the ability to impose any conditions they wish upon any company that does want utilize their name for the purpose of making a profit.

Which means they can absolutely enforce this for a 3rd party software company to use the right to sell a product with their name..... "Some things you won't get, an you really should not expect to get for free, these being 3rd party works made for or based on KSP by other groups."

Mods that are available for free are permitted as no one is charging anything. There's a distinct difference there.

[sal_vager]

You're reading too much into what I posted Falkon, sorry, I can't help that.

As to your point, you are confusing what they can do with what they are doing, they could impose what you say on 3rd parties, but you fail to understand that those 3rd parties can just as easily refuse.

Your point about addons being free is a bit of a strawman here though, currently addons are provided free by their creators, but no one is prevented from charging for their work, they are just as able to do so on their own sites as some creators of aircraft for Microsoft Flight simulator do on theirs.

Whether people choose to pay for them though is another matter.

I invite you again to view the post by KasperVld above, as he is Squad staff you can take what he says as coming from Squad themselves.

[Dunbaratu]

My problem with buying KerbalEDU is that I'm paying for The following TWO things:

1: Paying for a very complex and large mod that was made by TeacherGaming.

2: Paying for the base game that this mod attaches to that was made by SQUAD.

I've already payed for #2. It's annoying to have to purchase #2 a second time in order to purchase #1, which is basically what buying the full KerbalEDU game would be doing.

Is there an option to buy JUST #1.

I don't mind mod makers wanting money for their mods (which is basically what KerbalEDU is), but insisting that I buy the core game a second time through them in order to do it is a bit offputting.

[longbyte1]

As of launch, anyone can buy KerbalEdu, you don’t need to be a school, though only educational institutions (includes libraries, museums etc. too) will get it at a discount. We also intend to bring some limited features (mission editor!) available for those who only have regular Kerbal Space Program. We don’t have an exact roadmap for that just yet, but be assured that our intentions are to make this available to as many gamers in the KSP community as possible. We will let you know!

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/kerbal-teachers/umqH5kmW1Nk

Obviously this is where both Squad and TeacherGaming get the profit: they collect extra $$$ from those who already have KSP, and since the customer already has KSP in their store account, nobody's required to put the extra KSP copy in the store. See? Business!

[Rowsdower]

Is there an option to buy JUST #1.

You'll have to contact TeacherGaming about that, Steven. They're the ones who make and distribute the product that is primarily meant for those who surround the educational field - students, teachers and the like. While they've seemingly made it available to a wider playership, please keep in mind that right now, it's supposed to be a complete package mainly meant to be used in educational settings, not just an enhancement for those already well versed with the core KSP experience.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Rowsdower