TheAlmightyOS

That is the beauty of a discussion like this. One branch does not work out you just end it and move on to the other. So the non-official, non-sanctioned user support idea isn't buried. We just need to get back to it . I am not a modder (yet. working on it. documentation is crap) so I do not have any experience to bring to the table as far as this goes. I guess what needs to be discussed about it? For an informal system any modder could do that right now without putting anything special in place. As I mentioned upthread, I would be more then willing to start work on a wiki or knowledgebase. I would just need a set of requirements from the modders. Features and such.

And that is that. In the end it is about you ferram4 and the other modders and what is best for you. [i reread that, could be taken as hostility. NOT INTENDED! I mean it, it's all for you guys, every idea I am wracking my brain for!] The structured idea come to light after I had been told that the user-base here is semi-hostile and consider abusive feedback to the modder as "expected". So I wanted to put a bit of a wall there for protection. But, with that being xed.... The wiki/knowledgebase is still a viable option, right?

As I mentioned above to farram4, I am in agreement with you about implementation of the recognition of who is an expert and who isnt. I do not think it is feasible. The reason I had pointed it out a second time was to address the concern that the modders (namely farram4) have about impersonation. Without the distinguishing characteristics, would this be considered a viable option? without it I do not know how to address Farram4's concerns.

I am thinking it would have to be below the avatar, something to distinguish it from other items. Something that can not be changed As for the extra overhead on the mods/admins, yeah. That is a big problem and one I am not sure we can work out and just might be what ends this particular train of thought. Even if you gave Mod Authors privileges, then everyone with a modded part will want those privileges. Personally I have no ideas on this one. And you are right. I did not see it from that angle.

Your concerns are my concerns, ferram. Right now this is all just talk. Throwing ideas like tennis balls. I am very concerned about making sure experts can not be impersonated. While I am unsure why competing mods would sabotage one another (is it really that cutthroat here?) my thought is to have a badge or identifier for the modder. The badge is more elaborate so lets go with the simplified identifier. Let's say you, ferram4, designate me, TheAlmightyOS, as an expert for your mod. Though some magical process we have not completely discussed yet, I would get a "ferram4 Mod Expert" under my name designating me as your "staff". As for the questions for who gets to be an expert, I think it was implied by all that it would be the modders choice and the modders choice alone to chose their people. Like I said, all just ideas we are throwing around. But I just want to make absolutely clear that I understand your concerns. (except the sabotage thing. Did that actually happen?!)

I bolded the important bit of your post. No one asks, no one looks. No one knows. they just blindly follow the advice which could be bad advice from an unauthorized source. However you could very well be right and I might be making a fuss about nothing. I am just worried about a situation between a self proclaimed expert and a clueless user. The SP-Expert gives unintentionally harmful advice to the user and the user comes back and gives the mod author an earful. Maybe the SP-Expert thought they were helping. Maybe they just think they are an expert on everything KSP cause they have 100+ mods installed. Who knows. That is the nature of the user. And it is not something that is easily policed ether if you think about it. The moderators and mod authors can't be checking the support threads all the time looking for unauthorized experts. Then you are back at square one. But I completely agree that malicious intent would not come from a designated expert. Or from an unauthorized one ether. I guess I was using the wrong word. More like harmful/unintentionally harmful?

I understand the concept of your idea. It isn't a bad concept. Modder designates an "Expert" though OP. Expert helps out. HOWEVER, let's go over a few known variables with this plan We are talking about users. In tech support, customer service, health and human services, the "USER" remains the same. They are like a mythical being in their exploits, yet they are very very real and very very hard to deal with. We are having these problems because of the user. Namely, the user's unwillingness to read the OP. So we are going to designate Experts by... putting their name in the OP? If a malicious user messes with a clueless user and the clueless user screws up their install or worse their computer, they are going to blame the author for choosing that "expert" when they were never chosen in the first place. The user is a lazy beast. But also a simple one, and their eyes can be attracted to certain things. Such as changes in color for one example. Which, is one of the reasons why your name is in green, diomedea, to distinguish you as a moderator. A user is not going to go look at a list to see who is a mod and who isn't which is why such a distinction is necessary. So, we need something that the user can see in the experts post info that distinguishes them just like the color distinguishes you. A title or a badge. But one that has to be given. Not one that can be edited by anyone and allow for impersonation OH! and I forgot to mention that I am not implying that we do this and cause hours and hours of work for the staff. I am saying that if we do this we need a surefire way to let the users know that who they are talking to is legit at a glance. as it is, not sure there is a way without causing a lot of headaches

OK. So point of topic: WIKI! Wiki's are stupidly easy to set up. Just about every CMS out there has a wiki element. Even sharepoint. I could have one up by the end of the weekend (would be end of today but work and relationship get in the way). But as it has been said, you can set it up but maintaining it? That's the.... hard part. (so is not cussing for me but moving on...) We need some volunteers to not only populate it with data, but keep it up to date. Who has the time and resources to do that? Seriously asking. Do we have a group that is willing to devote their time to this because if so I will start work on it. ALSO: What else we want in there? I am working on a project currently as an extension to the Community Mods and Plugins Library that allows AUTHORIZED users to keep up to date information about mods in categorized, indexed and browse-able catalog. To do this I am using Drupal which is a very flexible CMS. Because of its flexibility I could add just about anything you guys could think of.

Yes, but one of the first rules of that forum is NO MODDED INSTALLs and it is basically an arm of Squad's support architecture. What we are looking for is supporting mods. It would be slightly easier in this case as almost all issues would be those with installation. I am sorry I completely missed the "ADDON" portion of your post and was thinking of the KSP support subforum. I took a look. Yeah it's bad. Yet it is very unorganized and that is something we could fix. Hate stackexchange, however your idea has merit, as do many of the others that have proposed wikis and other forms of reaching out and taking large threads and extracting the relevant data for easier use. I believe this idea needs to be discussed more thoroughly. Possibly in another thread cause it is not support per say, but an enhancement or project. But I will leave that decision up to the OP. If they think it is off topic I will make a new one for the project. Diomedea, you are a part of the staff so maybe you can answer this: Is there a user field (or, could Squad be convinced to create such a user field) or could a user-type be created to distinguish a normal every day user from an "Expert"? I am talking about something a user can't just switch on in their profile and say "Yep, I am a MechJeb expert now!" but something that the mod Author would have to request from a moderator for that user? If we do not have that, ANYONE could be an "expert"

Ok, I had some sleep, a constructive talk with a modder (thank you Nathan for your time) and I am now in the loop. I get it. I am starting to understand the reasons behind the responses I am reading. I know why things are the way they are and now I can help. (again, the following are OPINIONS. Not telling anyone to do anything here) Scrap the informal community support idea. If you are in a semi-hostile community that isn't going to help. Knowing what I know now I think I would have to back a formal "Mod Support" subforum or even a ticket system. To see how a really good support forum functions, check out TechSupportGuy.org. Might give some ideas

Well, I play sandbox mode so I can't help you with contracts and such. HOWEVER, I consider SpacePlane Plus (needs Firespitter) and KW Rocketry to be must haves as far as parts go. Firespitter itself along with Kerbal Aircraft Expansion is fun to play around with too But I doubt a prop plane will get you to the Mun Also, check the link in my sig. Lots of great mods in there.

That, I am afraid, will never change no mater what you do.

Could we be... over-thinking this? To quote Rick Cook: For the mod authors themselves, why not adopt a "Don't sweat the small stuff" approach? There is no way to stop users from making those beginner mistakes and posting about it looking for help. Just going to happen over and over again. Why respond? Let the community respond: <reg_user> "Hi, Welcome to the forum! I see you are having issues installing MechJeb2. Did you try <insert basic answer here>?" Modder does not get involved. The community steps in (and this could be any user) and handles it. Now if it is big, a break or something else, then the modder can interact directly. I am not saying that the begining users should be ignored. But known issues should not be addressed by the modder (opinion) EDIT: DasValdez, I am thinking along your lines

Yes, that's where I was. I remember the dropdown used to have the option for manual but it doesn't anymore. I think we are taking this off topic though. Thank you for your input

For me I only have "Update while playing" and "Keep Updated". Maybe because I opt-in for the beta steam client? Anyway, thanks for the tip about moving the game folder. I just assumed it was tied to steam. Nice info to have

@everyone: Please don't hate me. I had good intentions. Still do. I just started off wording everything badly and and it went downhill from there. @sarbian: I would like to only point out that users on Steam do not get an option to "hang back" a version. All games are automatically updated. I just looked at my options in steam and see nothing for manual updating or holding off on updating. Just something to think about. Some users will not have that option so it will just be broken for them. @cybutek: A wiki or a knowledge base would save some time if the users utilized it. However, if users utilized the readme's or OP's then they would have installed it correctly in the first place. We are dealing with two types of support requests, are we not? Those from first time / inexperienced users and then those from the more experienced users. I think a wiki would be good for the experienced user to check and see the latest issues with a particular mod. However, for the users that do not pay attention (and are causing the largest headache) I do not believe it would be effective. @OP: Do I think we can make a support scheme? I want to say yes however I am hesitant to say we can find one that we all would agree upon. My $0.02, for what it is worth: The mod threads, in my personal opinion, should be used for 1) announcing/displaying the mod. 2) Talking to the author about enhancements you would like to see or just pat them on the back/head/buttocks, whatever is your cultural preference, for a job well done. And lastly 3.) Updates and important announcements. Support requests should be handled outside of that thread. Maybe even outside of the forum. You could use the ticketing or bug tracking option of your choice here. It would be a big change. Forum rules would have to be changed, ether a support forum created or a ticketing system would have to be created. BUT it would address the issue that ferram4 brought up. You could have your "team" approved to work on your mod's tickets and if the user is REALLY insistent on seeing the "manager" then they can escalate it to the modder him/her self. I do not know if my personal experience is worth anything, but my agency receives thousands of tickets and of those 5+ thousand I only know of one where the user wanted "the manager" and it was resolved easily. Now all this is based on using a ticketing system where the modders "team" is identified and legitimized by the system itself. If we use the forum then the users may doubt the team member's legitimacy.

Why does everyone.... Seriously, WHY? I compliment people. Be polite, friendly. I try to understand their side of things, I look for compromises but everyone and their dog thinks I am trying to get "my way" and just trample over everyone? I don't even have A way! I just know the system is broken. Sheesh, what did I do in a past life? Take over a small nation?

You got to the core meaning so all is good. I notice you have your mod on all the modding sites. May I ask you (apart from KS which is in progress) which you like the most? And why?

Keks, you got a good idea and for sticking up for me in that thread I know you are a good guy too, but I do not think this is the direction I am going to go in. While your plan most definitely would work with the right backing it is at best a band-aid for a system that is inherently flawed and, I should say, intentionally crippled by those who should be the leaders of this community. I wish you good luck on your project man. If you ever need a server to test it out on or some help debugging code or testing just throw me a PM and I will offer what I got. As for me, I am going to take a swing at the core issue

Offence greatly taken. I have not "openly distrespected" the modders I did not ignore, marginalize or "not believe" their answers Go take your intentions and blast them off to mun. I am done with the all of ya.

ferram, I do not know why you are scared to talk to me. I am really not a bad guy. I want to help everyone. Maybe that is my flaw. I can't just say screw it. But I think it is time. You guys simply do not want help. You can not comprehend that when more and more people start buying this game and using your mods that it would be beneficial to have a program that updates and properly installs your mods and CUT DOWN on support requests from people using outdated versions and incorrectly installed installed mods. I know you won't see it that way but that was how it happened at Nexus. The NMM came out and support requests dropped for this sort of thing. I will do as NathanKell suggested and help out around the forum with the support requests. But I won't peruse dialog with you guys anymore. It is obviously fruitless.

"if something could be done, it would have been done long before now" Phrases loosely akin to that one have been said throughout history, ferram4. Notably "If man were meant to fly, he would have wings". Marvels of technology and architecture, once thought impossible, exist all around us. And here we are, arguing about mods for a pre-launch game on a forum Right now, you have it dead set in your mind that a solution is not possible. For me, it is the opposite. Our realities collide. There is some friction. But does it have to be this way? We disagree, this is true. But what is the harm of talking? Throwing about some "what-if's" and "maybe's". We might stumble upon something groundbreaking. or not. In the end what have we really lost but some free time and some kilobytes on Squad's server HDD. I will tell you this just like it was mentioned up-thread: we are not going to implement anything till we have an idea the modders are happy with that. Call that a unicorn if you wish. I found him once I can find him again. Might be in my fav mods list at Nexus actually.... EDIT: Found Him! Well, a different one. But still a unicorn so still counts. Ok. I will do it. I am already editing Notepad++ to highlight the important bits of the output_log.txt so I can figure out why all my mod parts are not showing up. So helping the modders with this, I would do so gladly.

I don't. I was throwing ideas blindly like scattershot. Ferram4 said that support would crush you guys if we attempt any solution. So I want to address it. This is not going away. But I am not leaving here without figuring out what we can do for you guys so it ain't any more work then what you already do (or less) I wish I could make a mod to make your mod users more intelligent. But if I could do that I would not be here.

Actually, you know what, let's get EVERYONE in on this: ferram4, regex, and sarbian: Let's forget what I am in here for. You are saying support is an issue. What can we do, as a community, that can help you with support? Bug Trackers? Wiki's? Ticket systems? I can demo all of these things on my server if you so choose to take a look. Tell me what you need to deal with support issues

Then what do you want me to do for support. We are asking something of you. Ask of us. What do you want us to do about the support issue.