Yemo

You said the license of SETIrebalance whould not allow you to pull or change parts of it. So I was wondering when/if you did to so with other mods which had different licenses.

Because then larger tanks would be strictly more mass efficient than procedural parts. edit: Of the same volume. SETIrebalance uses crew size, modules (eg reaction wheel strength), resource storage (eg monoprop capacity) and capsule strength against external forces (eg impact) as a base for mass values. Oh, and making stats only better is impossible if you are serious about balancing the monoprop tanks. And thus your patches will affect craft sharing in the same way as SETIrebalance does.

And when did you pull and change parts of other differently licensed mods instead of just going into their thread and talking to the mod authors about things you disagree with first?

Yeah, but there is no reason to introduce incompatibilities when seeking a balanced game, just because I can't be bothered to talk to another modder who does the same thing I want to do for a few years now. Without having any content related differences! ... Which would introduce massive imbalances when players use eg procedural parts or tank content switching mods. Somewhat contrary to your goal of increasing balance. I m not at my gaming pc, so I can not do it myself at the moment. But why not simply install SETIrebalance (and eg procedural parts and look at the liquid fuel tank and its options) and look at the result, before deciding what you want to do? Why introduce incompatibilities/imbalances between mods when there might not be any actual content related differences of opinion? Is it not worth 10 minutes to check out what a rebalance mod has done for years, to avoid incompatibilities/imbalances between mods?

SETIrebalance does not change anything regarding the tech tree. It is precisely an easy to use MM-patch making stock parts have consistent balance in a stock-like way.

Yeah, but the thing is, that SETIrebalance already is this comprehensive rebalancing package. It certainly includes more than fuel tanks and command pod masses. And if there is already the idea of "if fuel tanks are rebalanced, we should rebalance command pods as well" then I really dont see why you would stop there. Like, why does a thermometer in stock cost so much? And why does it not transmit for 100%? And why stop with the part values, what about their tech tree positions? Why do ladders come so late? etc... I mean, what is the issue with simply installing SETIrebalance? It is on ckan as well, so easy to put in the "recommended" or "suggested" field of other mods, so I really dont understand. Fuel tanks have negatives (masses, costs) AND positives (capacity) based on volumes (at least if they are balanced). The problem with crew parts is, that you can hardly offset a volume based increase in mass by a positive like crew capacity, if you want to stay in line with visuals/model interiors.

Well, why not simply install SETIrebalance? It balances tanks, masses and so on...

I don't fully understand the need for something which already exists. Both in the form of singular MM patches by Alshain as well as a MM patch compilation like SETIrebalance. Why invent the wheel a third time?

SETIrebalance mod (which is about 2 years old), link in my signature. Yep, the Mk1-2 pod is bad with its 4 tons dry mass for 3 kerbals. SETIrebalance corrects that as well.

Stock tanks are not balanced, especially monoprop tanks are totally out of whack between their volumes. As someone already said, for compatibility (procedural parts, fuel switchers, etc) only volume based factors are workable. You can install SETIrebalance and Procedural Parts. Then just stretch the procedural liquid fuel tank to the size of the tank you want to rebalance, select the tank content and use that value. And coincidentally, with SETIrebalance, stock tanks are balanced between each other as well. Also displays the volume/mass/units/costs and so on ratios. edit: And I would stay away from the upgrade feature, as you said, it kills craft sharing. And compatibility with different tech trees.

It is intended to be a framework to make effient designs. Low tech, low mass, low costs to complete a mission in a meaningful way (science and funds return). And then post craft designs/mission reports. For example in the post above the 03.0 OrbitKerbin mission done by a craft which cost 4800 funds and has 6tons, 17parts 3200dV + ~700dV from monoprop and no reaction wheels. And can be built with only basicRocketry and stability nodes unlocked for 24 science total. Or another example in stock career it is not unusual to send your first mission to Duna/Eve with a manned vessel of over a hundred tons launch mass and do everything in one go, including landing. For testing this mod pack I designed that minimalistic craft, capable of reaching Eve/Duna and transmitting science with RT: 05.0 EveFlyby, 8100 funds, <9tons, 21parts, 4740dV. No reaction wheels, only monoprop. Requires 99 science total (up to generalRocketry, stability and basicScience as the only 45 science node for the RT dish). It is a minimalistic desing to test how many facility upgrades are needed to go to Eve/Duna. Turns out only the tracking station and R&D need one upgrade, the level 1 launch pad allowing 9 tons launch mass is sufficient for Eve/Duna flyby. Though for the actual mission I would upgrade the launchpad and take more experiments and scan sat stuff and use the flyby mission as a relay station for a low mass landing mission to follow. I did not make mission screenshots for all those testing flights, just loaded up the craft file and made a screenshot of the design.

Well, I would love to hear some feedback on an my career challenge:

The result of a lot of work: Feel free to try it out, provide feedback, etc.: 02.1 18km Manned Altitude mission, 14500funds, ~5tons, 23 parts: Jet engines are below the wings, in hindsight the tail is too exposed for landing on a dirt runway, and it needs more roll control). 03.0 Orbit Kerbin, 4800 funds, 6tons, 17parts, 3200dV + ~700dV from monoprop: First artificial satellite, no magic reaction wheels (because at this tech level you do not have any).

Tired of the same old stock career, which lacks balance and incentives to really consider your spending and design choices? Modding is a lot of work, if you are interested in the continued maintenance and development of the SETI mods, please consider supporting them via patreon. SETI-UbM Career Challenge Tired of the same old stock career, which lacks balance and incentives to really consider your spending and design choices? Where funds are piling up so fast, that they are at best only an early career issue for facility unlocks, but not for vessel design. Where even early career science is so abundant without farming, that it does not really matter what you unlock next. Where design restrictions beyond the 30 part 18ton limits are pretty irrelevant. Where contract progression is a bit too procedural. Where you routinely put a kerbal into orbit with one of your first launches. In a 1 kerbal capsule (0.8tons) which is much, much more mass efficient than the later 3 kerbal capsule (4tons). Where all powerful magic reaction wheels fix every control issue right from the start, so you never have to think about it. Where you don't need any life support at all for manned missions, but have to consult a calculator/spreadsheet to find out your commnet sat ranges. And so on... Well, it is pretty impossible to change everything. But if want a bit more balance, a bit less basic mod install hassle and a bit more incentive to design efficient vessels, while being willing to learn and adjust to something different than stock, this might be for you. What is the challenge? Play career with a specific meta mod pack and game settings and thus face decision and design challenges: What mission to select next, and is it really necessary to unlock a tech node or rather save the science in case a later mission needs specific tech? Spend the funds on a facility upgrade, or rather keep them as a reserve? How to control your vessel without magic reaction wheels (you will get them later for convenience, after you are able to do it without them)? Is it worth it to send a 1ton probe with all the expensive experiments for this flyby mission, or would a 300kg probe suffice, and then bring the experiments on the landing mission? etc. What designs do you use to complete the contracts (SETIcontracts are numbered)? How much tech unlocks did you need for them, what are their costs, masses, part count and dV? Would you use them again or design them differently the next time? I'll start with 2 of my designs 02.1 18km Manned Altitude mission, 14500funds, ~5tons, 23 parts: Jet engines are below the wings, in hindsight the tail is too exposed for landing on a dirt runway, and it needs more roll control). 03.0 Orbit Kerbin, 4800 funds, 6tons, 17parts, 3200dV + ~700dV from monoprop: First artificial satellite, no magic reaction wheels (because at this tech level you do not have any). INSTALL: 1. Make a clean copy of your KSP folder, so it does not interfere with your other careers/updates etc. 2. Make sure that your GameData folder is empty except for the Squad folder. 3. Install CKAN (thank you very much CKAN team, this would not be possible without you! @Olympic1, @linuxgurugamer, ...) 4. Search for and select SETI-MetaModPack, nothing else, and then click "Apply changes" and "Apply". 5. Leave all recommendations checked and click continue. Select the suggestions you like and click continue. 6. Wait until all those mods are installed and start the game to check out if it works. 7. Missing at the moment is AnomalySurvey mod from @nightingale (not yet updated to 1.3), it provided a very nice diversion from all the other contracts. Visiting the island, the pyramids and the mun arc and so on... OPTIONAL: 1. Install visual mods, in ckan or manually. Planetshine and RealPlume are already installed with the recommended mods, if available via ckan for current ksp version. 2. I use CKAN config installs of Stock Visual Enhancement at the moment. It produces some flicker on the start screen but works in game. Choose at your own discretion. 3. Of course you are free to add mods like kOS and KCT, I have just not tested playing with them for some time 4. Other contract and part packs might integrate well (CTT is used anyway), I simply can not guarantee it (eg NearFutureSpacecraft configs, and InterstellarExtended mostly uses the later tech tree which is not affected) CAREER SETTINGS: There are no changes to any mods necessary. Just a list of changes from stock (what to expect) and how to alter them. And then the career start options to get a challenging, yet not annoying game. Please provide feedback on the challenge here and/or gameplay/technical feedback on the SETI/UbM mods in the SETI thread linked above. I would also like to thank all the mod authors who made this meta mod pack and thus this challenge possible! 1 House rules 1.1 TweakScale can bridge part catalog gaps, or it can remove the challenge to tinker with your design, use with restraint. 1.2 No excessive science (KSC, Mun, Minmus) and funds (completing new contracts with existing vessels) farming, if you want a challenge. This is a guiding framework, not a rigid corset. You can farm KSC and science hop minmus, but if you are not interested in tech progression and decision challenges, why not start with lots of science and funds in the first place? KSC science can be a fun rover aside, if you just need a bit more science or are really not interested in surveys with aircraft etc. As with every open world game, self control and role playing are advisable for certain experiences. 2 Facilities 2.1 Action Groups, Maneuver nodes (from Mission Control) and 2 strategies are available from the start. 2.2 Kerbal hiring costs are 60k, fixed. 2.3 Many facilities have more levels, no size restrictions from the launch pad (only mass restrictions). 2.4 You start with 3 contract slots, 30 parts and 9ton max vessel size, and R&D can research nodes up to 40 science. 2.5 With efficient designs, you can gather science from "High above the Sun" (SETIcontract 04.2), i.e. leave Kerbin SoI without any facility upgrades. Though I would recommend the first tracking station upgrade to do a flyby of Mun and Minmus. 2.6 So be considerate how you use your funds and science and how you design your vessels. 3 Contracts 3.1 The SETIcontracts are numbered, and may depend on earlier SETIcontracts completion to be available, but you can check their requirements in MissionControl 3.2 For the full experience, I recommend reading a little ahead, eg looking at the contract hierarchy picture in the SETI thread. 3.3 Sure you can complete the Mun flyby contract and then accept and complete the Mun landing contract with the same craft. The contracts are a guiding framework, self-control might result in a more fun game. 4 TechTree 4.1 Use search function in tech tree (thanks to quick search mod by @Malah), if you do not find the part you are looking for. 4.2 Unmanned start, rovers @engineering101 for 4 science (you can place Kerbals in the command seat), planes @stability for an additional 4 science. 4.3 No reaction wheels until miniaturization, use fins, winglets, RCS, gimbals, etc. until then (Unmanned before Manned Challenge mod). 4.4 No fuel lines for a long time and later 2.5m engines, use engine clusters and efficent rocket design until then (Unmanned before Manned Challenge mod). 5 Part rebalances 5.1 Background processing is one of the mods installed, so take enough battery capacity with you 5.2 Many masses, costs and entryCosts are rebalanced, many experiments can be transmitted for 100% 5.3 Many small things, like larger integrated batteries and smaller + radial materials bays. 5.4 Magic reaction wheels are nerfed considerably, you can manually delete the SETIrebalanceReactionWheels folder if you really want the stock ones back 5.5 MysteryGoo and MaterialsBay are not inteded to be collectable (SETIrebalanceMaterialsGoo). If you want to science spam in the late game, the StationScience Cyclotron? can help with that 6 Special Parts 6.1 SETIprobeParts provides a bunch of useful stuff, especially for the early career, eg engines, tanks, etc. 6.2 Cyclindrical probe cores, which are better protected by 0.625m heat shield and have inbuilt thermometers 6.3 RCS tanks with built-in thrusters and small linear RCS 6.4 Early Mini Alkaline Fuel Cell @survivability, once activated, only uses resources when there is EC demand. 6.5 The Hybrid Rocket Booster by @Lord Aurelius is more expensive than an SRB, but you can throttle it 7 Remote Tech 7.1 KSC range 900Gm, equatorial ground stations cover keostationary orbit. Defined in SETI-RemoteTechConfig mod. 7.2 Signal delay is off by default, you can turn it back on per in-game RT settings or just refrain from manually controlling vessels outside of Kerbin SoI. 7.3 If you want probe control to depend on an active connection, just uninstall SETI-ProbeControlEnabler mod via ckan. Otherwise you only need a connection to transmit science, comsats are still useful for comfortable science transmission beyond equatorial Kerbin orbit. 7.4 RT antennas are relabalanced, most stock dishes are not rebalanced yet. Usually too heavy/costly/EC consuming for their range/cone. 8 TAC Life Support 8.1 Recycler descriptions amended, so that you know what fraction of the original resource demand is necessary. 8.2 US recyclers are for 1 kerbal, small TAC ones are usually for 3 kerbals, 2.5m TAC ones are usually for 9 kerbals 8.3 SETIgreenhouse provides a food recycler, please consult the graphic in the SETI thread on how it works. 9 Career start options

And the next rounds of updates. UbM, another SETIrebalance one because incompatibilities just keep popping up, as well as SETIprobeControlEnabler adjustments and UnmannedBeforeMannedChallenge incompatibility fixes. Due to the recent CustomBarnKit update, I might be able to resurrect my config from long ago, which introduces more upgrade levels for certain buildings. While there are some problems with the visuals, it seems to work fine functionally. I ll test it some more and perhaps I ll publish a kind of mission report with complete instructions for Install, Settings, House Rules, pictures etc. As far as it goes at the moment, I m very excited about it. With the specific settings I m testing it with, it provides a really nice feel and challenge to the early career. Especially incentives to make mission efficient designs and work under tech restrictions, instead of strapping everything possible on it and compensating with lots of boosters... Only thing missing is AnomalySurvey contracts, since they are not updated to 1.2.2. Unmanned before Manned v1.2.2.1 (for KSP 1.2.x) Initial Procedural Parts mod support, please report bugs in the SETI/UbM forum thread Compatibility fixes for Near Future Spacecraft, TAC-LS, K2pod Specialized Command tech node costs higher at 450 Spaceplane parts rearranged SETI Rebalance v1.2.2.4 (for KSP 1.2.x ) Another update of recommendations/suggestions Eg mods for which a continued version exists like K2pod Removed some of the visual mods, only real plume and planetshine left Just can not keep track of their compatibilities, I simply install SVE and SVT in addition Adjustments US Science Bay mass reduced to 20kg, batteries included K2pod and some NFSpacecraft costs adjusted Some newer VenStockRevamp parts adjusted SETI ProbeControlEnabler v1.2.2.1 (for RemoteTech 1.8.3+) Adjusted for RT 1.8.3+, internal omni antennas and the flight computer are still working from now on Also updated UnmannedBeforeMannedChallenge (fixing reaction wheel position patches), it is now also findable when searching for "SETI" in ckan.

Hey, I have a question about ksp beautification. There are a lot of different configs available on ckan, when searching for "eve", "scatterer", "planetshine", etc. Is there a (commented?) list of ckan configs I can select to make stock kerbol system beautiful while still being stable? I know my way around mods and so on, just confused by all the beautification options and how they work together.

Yep, that would be great. I miss the early special missions with airfield, pyramids and mun arc etc.. Gave so much flavor to the otherwise standard missions about gathering science and stuff.

Thanks to @taniwha, entryCosts with non integer values due to SETIrebalance MM patches are now truncated and do not make the part disappear anymore. This should fix the related compatibility issues. While fumbling around with the entryCosts again, I also implemented a more detailed differentiation between parts having entryCost = 1 (essentially those that can be replaced by procedural parts) and those calculated based on part costs. I ve also updated the ckan recommendations, thank you very much for the feedback @MatBailie and sorry for the long wait. UbM update is next, while looking through it I found some more stuff to update, eg the new TACLS 3.75m converter positions. SETI Rebalance v1.2.2.3 (for KSP 1.2.x ) Adjusted/updated recommendations/suggestions, thank you very much @MatBailie Fixed entryCosts compatibility issues, thank you very much @taniwha Extended definitions for entryCost = 1 Whoops, well, no idea then about a 1:1 inline greenhouse for USI.

Hm, that works. Seems like you can only add levels to the end, not in between regarding the visuals. Seems to only affect the visuals. edit: And does not happen when entering the R&D building instead of the VAB.

Hm, still does not work for me. As soon as I enter a building, the maximum visual is the middle one, for buildings with more than 3 facility levels. So with the default.cfg Research facility modified like this for testing purposes RESEARCH { levels = 4 upgradesVisual = 1, 2, 2, 3 upgrades = 10, 20, 30, 40 dataToScienceRatio = 1, 1, 1, 1 scienceCostLimit = 100, 500, 900, -1 unlockedFuelTransfer = 2 } when I start a new game and upgrade the R&D building to level 4 (the visual updates correctly to style 3), then enter the VAB, and exit the VAB, the R&D visual has reverted to style 2. If I start a new game, enter VAB, exit VAB and then upgrade the R&D building to level 4, it goes from style 1 to 2 when upgrading from level 1 to 2, but does not display style 3 when upgraded from level 3 to level 4. Facilities which still only have 3 levels are not affected and correctly display style 3 when upgraded to level 3, even after visiting the VAB.

SETIrebalance removes the reaction wheel from Mk1 pod and nerfs the reaction wheels in general, iff SETIrebalanceReactionWheels folder is detected.

Yes, you are right of course, module manager patches are not the problem, non integer entryCost are the problem. I remembered wrongly. Though the MM patches only use the costs as specified in the config, independent of the contained resources. Since the config specified costs are the ones displayed in game, thus this number includes the costs of the default included resources. Masses work the other way, the in game displayed mass is the sum of config mass in addition to default resource masses. edit: Thus changing the config costs to integers would fix this compatibility problem. I would do it on my end, but I do not know how.

The first batch of updates/compatibility fixes. Next on the list is correcting SETIrebalance ckan mod recommendations and extending UbM configs, especially for procedural parts. SETI Rebalance v1.2.2.2 (for KSP 1.2.x ) Fixed TAC-LS converters, thank you very much @SpacedInvader Aero parts entry costs = 1 SETI ProbeParts v1.2.2.1 (for KSP 1.2.x) Fixed VenStockRevamp compatibility for mini RCS parts SETI Greenhouse v1.2.2.0 (for KSP 1.2.x) Fixed TAC-LS converters, thank you very much @SpacedInvader Removed default included Nutrients Increased resource storage space Removed USI-LS configs Since I can not keep track of USI anymore Take a look at PSA Greenhouse, it uses the same zzz model with USI configs

This is a problem with using non-integer numbers for some part costs. cost = 2867 works fine, cost = 2867.1 does not seem to work for module manager patches.

Unfortunately I do not know how to solve this issue. If anyone has a solution, please tell me. Why any non-procedural part cost has decimal points escapes me. Long planned, unfortunately rl intervened. Will be done in the next patch. 1. UbM is intended to be used with at least somewhat balanced part stats, aka SETIrebalance. 2. I just liked the Stayputnik and did not whant to make it obsolete after 2 flights. There is a detachable and thus more historical Stayputnik provided by SXT, which I intended to come first. But SXT is just so big, that it was too much effort to adjust all the parts when only a few really improved functional variety. Tier 1 R&D provides enough parts for manned missions to minmus and unmanned missions to at least Duna and Eve, thus it should imho fit the "hard" settings. On SETI/UbM dev: RL had me occupied more and longer than usual at the start of the year. I ll try to fix the worst incompatibilities and ckan recommendations starting this weekend and then 1.2.9 will likely come around. Based on feedback, for 1.2.9 I ll consider putting planes earlier as SETIctt did.