fredinno
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Posts posted by fredinno
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8 hours ago, magnemoe said:
Origin on Mars would make it possible to hid the old civilization.
It would however make an clear break in the human fossil record, realistically we would not be related to any multi celled animal, other animals imported with humans would also have an short fossil record and only related to humans and each others.
Add that humans did not evolve for cold climate and low gravity. The cold one is most obvious, humans need clothing outside the tropics.I see how an more advanced civilization than our might collapse totally, all information is stored online is one, second would be that technology would be so advanced you could not use it as an base after the fall.
However this would leave lots of remains, look at all the junk we create lots of it would preserve far better than bones.
Humans on Mars would anyway make it critical to understand how it came to be, an old fallen civilization would be the most critical as in how did it fail, aliens messing around would be less so.metal and computer parts can easily degrade. Same with plastics, wood, etc. The only parts that don't are stone-based structures.
Also, what if Mars is in an ice age at the moment?
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2 hours ago, magnemoe said:
If the martians was humans or even as close genetic as us as apes it would prove alien interference.
Having an earlier space fairing human civilization would be pretty impossible as such an civilization would leave lots of signs, everything from trash to mines.
Some aliens who discovered the solar system and found that Mars had no intelligent life even if the same biochemistry as earth and moved some humans would be the best explanation.
You can get single celled organisms between planets with impacts nothing more so Earth and Mars would not be related closer than 1 billion years or something.
That evolution tend to produce humans would be another wild theory but again almost as unlikely as the ancient space fairing civilization
This would make Mars even more interesting than just intelligent life.Not if they existed long enough in the past. Say, before the last ice age, and were centered on Mars, not Earth.
I would say that they became too dependent on technology, and just steadily stagnated until their society collapsed from pure neglect once a large solar flare came around.
Of course, the lack of fossil fuels would probably be a pretty big warning sign, but it would make most of OTL history go as normal until the 21st century.
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2 hours ago, KSK said:
Oh well - they're doomed then.
I was thinking 'common biological ancestor' as in 'something based on DNA and protein'. Not totally farfetched - various precursors to biological molecules have been identified in the interstellar medium, so it's possible that DNA/protein life is fairly common simply because that's the way the chemistry goes given half a chance. Throw in a little panspermia and yeah, Martians and Terrans having a common (ultimate) ancestor isn't beyond the realms of probability.
But having such a direct homo ancestor evolve separately on Mars would be (in my opinion) stretching that probability to breaking point. Which means you've just handed the world a very large riddle. Assuming we're not going all von Daniken here and the Martians didn't migrate to Mars from Earth before recorded history began, then we're looking at some fairly sci-fi explanations.
But unfortunately, I can easily imagine a significant body of opinion holding out for a different explanation. Because the chances of Man (or something very close to Man) evolving separately on two different worlds are so vanishingly small, then surely the Martians are incontrovertible proof that Man really was made (and is made throughout the Universe) in the image of whichever Creator you happen to believe in?
And from there, the obvious next question becomes: Do the Martians know about that Creator?
And sadly, the next question becomes: If not - why not?
And historically, pursuing that particular question has rarely ended well for the peoples being questioned.
I dunno, the idea was that an ancient line of homo managed to build a civilization spanning the solar system, then died out from war or something, and never really recovered.
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4 hours ago, KSK said:
I do like the big 'don't make this political' warning attached to what is basically a political question but never mind.
I would hope that we'd basically go all Prime Directive and leave the Martians in peace. Watch them develop, maybe learn something about ourselves in the process.
Even with your marginally less hostile version of Mars, it's still not a great place to live. It's a long way away, it's cold, and a 'common biological ancestry' doesn't mean that the Martians and their biosphere are remotely compatible with Terran lifeforms. On top of all that you've got the ethical implications of colonising an inhabited world. So why bother?
Trade? Not a hope. Not for commodiites or raw materials anyway - there's nothing on Mars that we can't find much more easily on Earth or conceivably the Moon.
Living space? If we're that desperate and we're assuming a situation where we have the technology and general wherewithal to think about colonising Mars, why not build cities in the desert here on Earth, supplementing our natural resources through asteroid mining, or simply being a) less wasteful in the first place and b) recycling what we have.
All our eggs in one basket, Man must leave his cradle, yadda, yadda yadda? Well Mars is gone - so the Moon it is. Much more difficult to colonise than Habitable Mars in some respects and much easier in others. More speculatively, divert a couple of decent asteroids into a safe orbit, hollow them out and presto - one giant space station. Not easy, nor cheap but again - we're postulating a scenario where we're seriously considering Mars colonisation.So lets leave the Martians in peace. Or maybe, just maybe, visit them as tourists rather than colonists. A whole world of alien art, culture, languages etc. etc. to visit and marvel at. Because, at the end of the day, tourism, culture and art are the only items of interplanetary trade that make any sort of sense.
By "common biological anchestry" means came from the same homo line.
Well, that's what we might do. Problem is that there's inevitably going to be a number of people illegally migrating, or giving birth on Mars, so there should be contingency for such a thing.
Money makes the world go around, science and governments be dammed. You might be able to make a nature preserve of Mars when no one really seriously considers much of an economic use out of Mars... until of course, we get something like the OTL fur trade. Antarctica isn't likely to remain a nature preserve after the Antarctic Treaty expires.
All it takes for a nation to gain a monopoly on a marginally profitable Mars market is one nation that is powerful enough, that refuses to sign a UN Treaty. And there's nothing anyone can really do once that can of worms is opened.
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Guys, let's get back to the topic at hand. What about who would fill up the colonies (nations, people, corporations), and how land would be 'divided'?
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13 hours ago, magnemoe said:
Birth rates was higher, not sure if this apply anymore, not much frontier left. Probably some self selection as you want an large house if you have many kids.
At 2100 its likely to be an lack of kids so you would probably get plenty of benefits having them here rater than at primitive conditions on Mars
The few places with too many people would not be able to afford to ship any.
health care would give an native population boom together with more agriculture, they would be forced to do more farming because of larger population too.
This will be promoted both as help and to keep natives working for the colony healthy.
Later on Mars has an benefit in that its cheaper from launch from mars than from Earth, bulk stuff its hard to make or get in space. Food, not sure if it would be cheaper to launch oxygen and fuel from Mars than from asteroids.
I meant birth rates would be higher on Mars regardless of the species.
Most industry will probably be at or near earth, and Mars is harder to get off than the Moon, or a NEO. Meaning Mars is a loss from the beginning. Some natives may be employed, like in OTL fur trade (though for speciality crops and animals instead)- but there's probably not much to do otherwise until we get the proper infrastructure and tech to cut launch costs from gravity wells sufficiently enough.
10 hours ago, kerbiloid said:While you have a salary to want a large yard, as well as most of your neighbours.
If not much people have a job to buy a large cottage with a yard, all required communications and fuel their cars to drive 100 km per day to the job and back, then the developers build budget multistorey houses, where dwellers rent the apartments.A multistorey building with 100 flats has one roof, four walls, one set of pipes and wires, so under similar conditions it requires less money to keep, than 100 cottages, each with the same listed above.
Since Roman insulae till modern buildings. That's the main reason why it has appeared at all.A village with poor infrastructure is even worse.
While a town dwellers get enough salary to pay the doctor, and there are enough people in a town to keep a police/fire/medical post in their town.
If you have to pay them all social allowance, you will prefer to gather them together, to minimize those services.
If one house contains a population of a small town (say, ~400), then one police post can patrol several former towns at once just moving around a city block.
A fire department can protect several blocks, i.e. a whole county.
More or less with medicine, education and entertainment.Why? It's easier to make one big show which can see a whole city, than 100 comparable shows across a region.
One fireworks visible to all, one concert audible for many, wagons of drinks in one place near a storehouse, rather than sending them hudreds kilometers around.Yes, and also this is exactly why youngsters mostly move from towns into cities rather than back. More opportunities, less limits.
You just think about more or less rich towns, whose dwellers can allow themselves to choose neighbors, keep a police post, etc.. Without slums.
When in a village/small town there is no job and no money except pensions and social allowance, more or less adequate youngsters leave it for the city on any opportunity, and there stay only old people and eh....chemically challenged persons, a city is definitely better just because there are medicine and police at all.Of course, you can point at (don't know how to say correctly) Amish, Mennonite and other towns. But they also depend on law and order, not less than others. Against armed gangs or riots the could do nothing.
Serios crimes and riots is much easier to control in a city where you can place web-camera and microphones on every trash can. Say, all known partisan/terrorist movements prefer countryside to have their bases.
#offtopic
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2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:
They aren't, They are not a remedy, but a consequence.
I just mean that:1. Living here
is cheaper than here
So, no job → no salary → no money → cheaper apartments.
2. Logistics arm is much shorter if a million people lives inside a 100 km2 spot rather than scattered 1000 km2 around.
For everything: roads, railways, pipes, wires, etc.
Much less distances to cover, much less duration of deliverance, much less leaks in pipes and wires (so, less efforts to keep them intact).
When almost all clients have no money, economy beats comfort, companies and their clients will save every cent.3. Every town of 400 people still needs own doctor, policeman, fireman, etc. When its citizens have enough money to keep them - no problem.
Must it's much cheaper to have a fire department, a police office and a hospital one per 10000 than per 1000.4. It's easier to control a million unemployed people when they are living together, rather than scattered.
Especially when any job is gone forever, and you have to entertain them.So, the less job - the more blighten areas outside, the more public housing inside.
Fifth Element, where Korben Dallas lives, is something like a limit value.Of course, later this will become more like this,
but later.
5. It's just easier to find a job in a big city.
P.S.
Nice that the forum users from SE Asia usually see this without questions.
Those aren't so much "megalopolises". Megalopolises describe a chain of cities, or a single, huge city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalopolis
It's also sort of a natural urban planning idea due to it allowing for increased use of cheaper public transport (ie conspiracy theorists with Agenda 21 and all :P)
A future world almost entirely automated would have a bigger social problem with crime than anything.
When people have nothing to do, and no visible way they can see to improve themselves, socialist programs allowing them to live decently or not, a lot turn to crime and/or despair.
Same thing happens in American ghettos to an extent. Dystopian image of the future, truly.
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On 2017-07-05 at 5:02 PM, Teilnehmer said:
Wikipedia — Mayak (spacecraft) (in Russian)
Mayak (Russian Маяк ‘lighthouse’) is a Cubesat 3U-sized spacecraft designed by young engineers of Moscow Polytechnic University. It is the first Russian crowdfunded spacecraft with a record low cost of 2 million roubles (€29,000, $33,000).
The satellite is planned to be launched on 14 July 2017 from the Site 31/6 at the Baikonur Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan. It will be put into a 600 km orbit using a Soyuz-2.1a rocket with a Fregat-M upper stage alongside 72 other satellites (Canopus-V-IK, Zvezda, four SatByul Co. LTD satellites, two Corvus-BC, AISSat-3, Lemur+, Tyvark, MKA-N, Flock 2k).
The spacecraft contains a solar reflector made of metallized film 20 times thinner than a human hair. After getting into orbit, it will be deployed and form a tetrahedron. For 25 days, Mayak will become the brightest shimmering star in the night sky with the apparent magnitude of −10 (1.6 times brighter than the Iridium flare (magnitude −9.5)). The Mayak solar reflector is intended to be a reference object for space object apparent magnitude estimations. During the tracking of the flight of the satellite in upper Earth atmosphere, new data on the gas density at the given altitudes will be acquired. The flight can also be considered as an aerobraking device flight test. Such devices may be used for deorbiting space junk in the future.
The spacecraft includes:
- solar reflector
- reflective surfaces
- reflector container
- deploying mechanism
- control system
- chemical electricity source
- propulsion system
- load-bearing unit
Dimensions: 3 × 3 × 2.45 m
Orbital altitude: 600 km
Orbital inclination: 98°Spacecraft 3D models on the project website (in Russian).
Maximum apparent magnitude values of various objects in the sky Sun −26.7 Moon −12.7 Mayak spacecraft −10 Iridium flare −9.5 Venus −4.67 International Space Station −4 Jupiter −2.94 Mars −2.91 Mercury −2.45 Sirius −1.47 Canopus −0.72 (Sorry for my English)
This is clearly evidence that all stars are faked. NASA faked the lunar landings- EXPOSED!
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13 minutes ago, magnemoe said:
True, we would already had an manned mars mission and probably bases. An colony as in an off world base if Earth get destroyed would be tempting and even practical.
it would be much like colonizing Alaska.
However the American colonization analogy don't match well. Even with something like ITS you would be limited to some thousand migrant each year.
Transport cost would still be high, you had to be wealth or have some pay for the trip as you had employment on Mars.
You would not get the millions of desperate people out to get farmland, most colonists would want an higher standard of living even if you had commercial flights and the desperate could not pay for it.
Add that Mars has little to export to Earth as cost would be too high, yes you could add an plot device an plant with very good medical properties who could not be grown on earth or synthesized, but it would not be sugar or cotton, return cargo would be some tons not many shiploads.
Mars is lucky as its still hunter gatherers perhaps with some limited farming. Had they had kingdoms you would get cold war diplomacy in full force. The US sky goods give the king weapon and ask him to start an war against the Soviet influenced kingdom. You would use the local as guides and cheap labor, an steel knife would be an legendary artifact so digging ditches for an week would be an rip of from the local point of view.
That is until they find how to do metalworking
I find it likely that the locals will out-breed the colonists once they get some sort of civilization running, humans is likely to promote this, both for their own benefit and to help the locals.https://smstirling.com/books/the-sky-people/ and https://smstirling.com/books/in-the-courts-of-the-crimson-kings/
Is much based on this setting, aliens teraformed mars and venus long ago added various animals from earth up to humans.
The space race never ended, you have an base with some hundred on Mars and Venus, Venus is mostly stone age with some bronze age civilizations, Mars is much more advanced but no industrial revolution.
The government might sponsor flights and training if the prospect of a colony is profitable enough. Which would require very cheap rockets, and would likely be mostly cash crops at first, since non biological matter is easy to get on the Moon.
But yeah, Russian Alaska is likely a good analogue here. Rarely profitable or barely profitable colonies with high levels of autonomy.
Not many people would get to Mars, at least not in the first 100-200 years- they didn't in America OTL, and global population numbers will likely stagnate or decline by the 2100s due to demographic trends.
QuoteMars is lucky as its still hunter gatherers perhaps with some limited farming. Had they had kingdoms you would get cold war diplomacy in full force. The US sky goods give the king weapon and ask him to start an war against the Soviet influenced kingdom. You would use the local as guides and cheap labor, an steel knife would be an legendary artifact so digging ditches for an week would be an rip of from the local point of view.
Not really a cold war thing, unless both superpowers were competing for a strategic land mass.
QuoteI find it likely that the locals will out-breed the colonists once they get some sort of civilization running, humans is likely to promote this, both for their own benefit and to help the locals.
They would likely out-breed the colonists at first too. The most likely thing to change is how many of them survive, not how many are born. That usually actually declines with better medical tech :P.
I read somewhere that birth rates usually tend to be higher in "frontier areas" where there are few people, and land for population to grow. I might be wrong, since I can't find the source for this.
Nomadic tribes tend not be very populous though. There might be native agricultural 'nations', closer to the equator, where there would be enough people to actually make this viable. It's definitely not Africa, where the colony is almost entirely going to be composed of natives, with the colonists essentially making up the upper class.
Maybe somewhere in between?
But that's assuming there's much of an economic reason to do so. It might just be "living space" for colonists wanting a job, or leaving Earth (forced or otherwise)- on land good enough to make a living, bu tnot enough to export much.
From a purely economical standpoint, Astroidal and Lunar colonies are always going to be the resource havens and moneymakers supplying orbital industry. Or I would think.
So I would think that the great powers settle their land claims in some UN conference, and concentrate their efforts and wars outside the gravity well of Mars. At least until we have something that really cuts launch costs. Space elevators, anyone?
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2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:
In my timeline, the natural processes of automation, unification and virtualization will leave humans with a lot of time, but a few of money.
This will force overurbanization processes (because it's cheaper to deliver things across a cube, rather than across a square, and nobody will have choice without a salary) and global economical collapse.
Then almost all (survived) humanity will live in several tens megalopolises (arcology or not, doesn't matter). I wouldn't wish to stay between the non-urbanized part of humanity...
These megalopolises which will mostly deal with each other, will be enough small to be destroyed with one little attack, .due to this they will be overprotected (as armies will surround exactly them to defend).
The next step will be their planetary confederation of megalopolises.I don't get this. How are megalopolises supposed to solve the problem of automation?
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10 hours ago, kerbiloid said:
(A lot of letters).
Plan A.
They are of the same ancestry, so they are cursed heretics temporarily escaped from the righteous anger.
Outdated. More or less.Plan B.
They are noble/backward savages thirsting_for/afraid_of our Great Civilized Culture. We must help/help them.
Disproved.
Happily, now we all know that all cultures are equal.
Native Martians just chose a natural way of civilization development, which is even more wise than our aimless technofetishism.
We should learn from them how to live in a harmony with the Nature.Plan C.
Classified.
Prohibited by Geneva conventions.Plan D.
Just trade with them.
As nobody would bring oil or metals from Mars, and the furs from Martian tundra unlikely would be legal in the vegan society, this would be a anisotropic trade. When one partner brings goods and sells them for free.
Of course, they could sell their lands, but unlikely there will be enough religious farmers to need lands on Mars for such price.
So.After the first Martian expedition had exhausted all funds of world space agenices, the second flight to Mars will happen seventy years later.
They will see absolutely accurate clones of the first expedition lander(s), made of regolith, moss and schkrunchugga (you really don't want to know, what's the latter).
And 25/7 duty of Martian shamans wearing spacesuits made of tree bark and bladders.
After the second expedition gets out and bring beautiful and tasty gifts, everybody on Mars will be ensured in their priests' power. They called the skypeople back from the skies!As both lines of humanity had gotten developed separatedly, they would have different diseases, harmless for ours/theirs, but deadly for theirs/ours.
So, a severe quarantine should be established until this problem gets solved.Also, as (given in OP) there is tundra on Mars, and not much sugar in plants, the Martians should face the same problems as tundra dwellers on the Earth: diet with insufficient carbohydrates makes the body to consume a piece of bread as a handful of sugar, which cause problems with carbohydrate balance.
Also this means than they are intolerant (not that they reject, but just are vulnerable) to alcohol, as they just have no materials, nor enough heat to produce it massively.So, Prohibition and Abstinence will be the motto of the Martian Trading Post...
...until some technician will treat his Martian friend to his self-made moonshine, and then he tells his friends about the magic water...
... then somebody will make love, not war, and this will totally devalue all these funny attempts to kill Cassini with fire to prevent infecting a lifeless icy moon near Saturn.
After MTP (Martian Trading Post) was renamed to MMTP (Martian Medical-and-Trading Post), the intercultural contacts will widen and strengthen.
Just by necessity: it's more fun being cured together.The Omniplanetary Quarantine will be screwed down and forgotten, as anyway the genie had escaped from the bottle.
The tribes closer to the MMTP will become more peacuful, but then become an object of distant tribes attacks.
Also this will be caused because the first expedition would probably land in a village of peaceful fishers, rather than between cannibals wearing necklaces made of skulls.
So, those cannibals will feel overlooked and frustrated.This will make MMTP personnel to defend their Martian close counterparts from their aggressive neighbours.
As the MMTP personnel has fliers and doesn't need to chase the attackers by dog sledding or jungle pathfinding as in XIX century, this defence will be finished with intertribal boundaries delimitation and forcedly voluntary demilitarization.MMTP will be renamed to MMMTP (Martian Military-and-Medical-and-Trading Post).
In addition to the medical personnel, technicians and traders(?), somesoldiersmercenariesfield security specialists will arrive to support the automatic turrets and signalization.This will make the process run faster. Planet of War will become planet of Love.
Two decades later the MMMTP personnel will consist mostly of
Gallo-RomansMarterrans which from one side will be rised above the Martian tribes living far away from MMMTP, and from another side still get preferences from the Earth government, just because Martian life really requires this.Everyone on Mars will dream to get employed by MMMTP, and everyone who can't will hate MMMTP for this.
This will make different MMMTP consolidate and establish their government and police control over all the planet, to redistribute the humanitarian aid more or less evenly and to prevent intertribal conflicts.They probably will declare themselves as Independent Martian Dominion under the Supreme Power of Terra, which allows them to keep the Earth loyal and to keep the Mars stable.
Then there will be centuries of a dull provincial life, as for Mars there is nothing significant to sell to Earth, and for Earth there is nothing significant to capture on Mars.
Martian youths will be dreaming for the Earth metropolitan magnificence, but not all fo them would be able to live there due to biology (different gravity, metabolism, etc.) and background (foreign culture).
So, most successful will be the Marterran people which can extend their comfort zone around both planets.
As the "pure" Martians will look not exotic for them, the mixed Marterran culture will digest the native Martian culture.So, centuries later in the United Imperial Parliament (on the Earth) there will be 90% Terrans and a 10% fraction of Marterrans. Mars will be partially independent, but native Martians will be culturally absorbed by the Marterran culture.
10 hours ago, kerbiloid said:Happily, now we all know that all cultures are equal.
...I'm going to say that's not really a view shared amongst the right in general- citing things like Muslims throwing gays off roofs, cited as part of the 'culture' of Islamic Middle Eastern culture.
So Plan B is still possible under a somewhat more limited extent, depending on the politics of a colony.
Which would provide some interesting population mechanics between the more tolerant and less tolerant colonies.
QuoteThey will see absolutely accurate clones of the first expedition lander(s), made of regolith, moss and schkrunchugga (you really don't want to know, what's the latter).
And 25/7 duty of Martian shamans wearing spacesuits made of tree bark and bladders.Why? Is it that hard to make basic fabrics on Mars with 3D printing?
QuoteAs both lines of humanity had gotten developed separatedly, they would have different diseases, harmless for ours/theirs, but deadly for theirs/ours.
So, a severe quarantine should be established until this problem gets solved.Far bigger problem for "them", than "us"- I would think. Americaplague never happened, despite medical technology being BAD in Europe at the time, until mid to late Victorian era.
QuoteAlso, as (given in OP) there is tundra on Mars, and not much sugar in plants, the Martians should face the same problems as tundra dwellers on the Earth: diet with insufficient carbohydrates makes the body to consume a piece of bread as a handful of sugar, which cause problems with carbohydrate balance.
Wouldn't they evolve to the different conditions?
In any case, "tundra" more or less describes the temperate regions. Grassland and Boreal Forest cover areas closer to the equator, and even temperate rainforest, if you're lucky.
I'm going to add that now. It's not reasonable to assume the entire planet is a single biome.
Are you assuming Earth is one national entity for your timeline, a swarm of private or public entities...?
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7 minutes ago, 1of6Billion said:
Keeping politics out of this discussion will prove to be *very* hard...
Before the last US-election, I would have replied that we (the UN) would be discussing colonisation until well in the 2200's. After that we would probably go for a small (but quite heavily armed) research outpost somewhere in a remote area. There will be contact with the inhabitants. We would never go "Avatar" on them.
Now, I am not sure that would never happen.
Please do. I don't want to have this thread locked.
I said 2100, because of the association with @ChrisSpace's Alternate Solar System. I disagree, and think that even OTL Mars would have at least 1 or 2 bases on Mars by the end of the century. At least I hope
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2 hours ago, cubinator said:
I'm thinking there might be something like a hyperloop or maglev (vacuum tunnel is hardly necessary on a nearly airless world) that would be developed that would allow fast travel between regions without rockets. That plus internet and the already globalised humans migrating there would make for a pretty uniform global culture.
Of course if Earthly nations start making land claims (or even if factions arise on Mars itself) and travel between these colonies becomes more difficult as a result, then there would surely be different colonial cultures similarly to the cultures of the colonial Americas.
Not sure what part you are referring to here. Could you elaborate?
... a HABITABLE Mars would have air pressure similar to Earth, or at least 80-90 %. Meaning Maglevs would be about the same speed as on Earth. Maglevs can only reach 603 km/h, and require expensive tracking that won't be viable on Mars until cultures and colonies have fully developed. Sea, road, and conventional Rail are cheap, and are the primary modes of transport- and will likely remain so, because cost is much more important than speed in a world where most people still don't regularly travel cross-country, and cargo generally doesn't care how long it takes to get there.
I'm talking about Native influence. South America, there tended to be a lot more natives around, and the colonists regularly interbreeded. That might be the case in the equilateral region (thus creating a sort of new species), but everywhere else, there isn't going to be many mixed race people, or native influence, like in North America.
2 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:So take something that we're already resolutely not doing for a host of practical and economic reasons, and add a small ethical speedbump? Sure, I guess we would continue not colonizing Mars in that case. We might even tell the Martians it was because we had so much respect for their sovereignty and autonomy.
A Mars with a breathable atmosphere and easily farmable land and regularly flowing water is much more appealing and makes colonies much more easily sustainable than OTL Mars- which would essentially be like Vostok Base, except cooler, and millions of kms away from Earth. And no breathable atmosphere.
You could get stranded in this Mars, and reasonably survive, you won't on OTL Mars, unless you're Matt Damon.
Of course, we could just robot our way into this entire thing, and colonize Mars with robots. Bu that opens a whole new can of worms.
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10 minutes ago, cubinator said:
Our societies would, at best, merge and gradually meld together into general human/alien Martian culture. There will probably be a lot less regional diversity in culture as globalization will be quite prevalent because Earth-Mars rockets can land in almost any region and the planet is smaller.
There will probably be conflicts similar to those in the great American westward expansion, but hopefully we can look back and avoid at least some of our mistakes.
Like in South America? Maybe. But what if there are much less, like in North America?
Regional Diversity would likely decline, but remember that rocket travel is still hard. Hopping small distances is possible, but intercontinental travel requires about as much you would need to get to Martian Orbit (more if you include precision landing). So I would expect there to still be dominant "types" of cultures, especially in different "national land claims".
New York to Caracas was probably easier than New York to London, and yet developed completely different cultures.
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Here is a basic scenario: Mars is a habitable tundra-cold desert planet with a habitable atmosphere with a similar composition and pressure to Earth's.
Different biomes cover the different latitudes:
Poles+ Subarctic: Ice caps
Temperate: Tundra
Tropical: Boreal Forest, Dry Grassland- sometimes wetter temperate forests where climatic conditions make it possible.
There are human- like Aliens of similar technological level to nomadic American first nations in 1000AD. They are of common biological ancestry.
The year is 2100. We have the capability to colonize Mars, however, the fact it is already inhabited (in a sense) is a... problem.
How would humanity act? I'm not talking about specific nations, or superpowers here (b/c no politics rule), I'm talking about a general RANGE of attitudes from inaginary POSSIBLE colonizing organizations.
Would it be spearheaded by private corporations? Small Nations trying to become great powers? Who would be the colonizers? Lower class people in developed nations? Upper class people in developing nations?
What about the 'people' already living there? Do we 'buy' out their land into reservations gradually? Do we fight them? Do we try to keep our colonies compact? How long can both sides aboid conflict.
NO POLITICS OR FLAME WARS. PLEASE.
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15 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:
I would assume you have to slow down from Earth's rotation. Essentially an extra 460 meters per second from the Equator. Not much less from Guiana, I would think. Although, don't listen to me, I'm just guessing.
There are no payloads, yes. But BO isn't just doing orbit, they're also doing sub-orbital tourism, or at least desire to do so. Although New Glenn may be used to send payloads to high energy orbits more than it is used to LEO. We should wait and see how things play out.
Problem is that 2nd stage reuse is worst on high energy orbits.
Oh well.
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Just now, Kryten said:
What are you basing that on? There's a Blue presentation that calls the upper stages 'initially expendable'.
Oh. I'm not hugely involved in this, so I got the idea from reading articles when it was presented, and reddit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_Upper_Stage
basing it off the EUS stage's mass (cannot find mass estimates for 2nd stage mass for the New Glen 2nd stage), is around 15mT, and assuming the amount of fuel needed to go from GTO to the atmosphere (I'm too lazy to mess with Delta V calculations right now) is going to be around 12mT or so, rather than 15mt to GTO. Add in the extra recovery mass, and we'll say another 1mT is off the payload.
http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/sls0.html
In any case, it's off topic, but how much delta V does it take to go to Earth Polar Orbit from, say Guiana?
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6 minutes ago, Spaceception said:
Maybe New Glenn and Falcon heavy will complement each other, I mean, isn't New Glenn launching in the early 2020s? SpaceXs Falcon heavy will be doing daily flights by then (Hopefully), so there should be some competition by then.
I guess it depends on how things play out in the next few years, but it could at least launch multiple payloads, and smaller ones further out.
Complement? You mean compete?
Also, there's the little ninging detail that it New Glenn goes into SLS territory for very large and wide payloads, and FH is cheaper for interplanetary probes.
Reminds me of the entire situation with NASA and the Delta II and Atlas V. Delta was too close to Atlas V territory, so NASA ended up baselining Atlas V. This resulted in LCROSS, for example. and now the Delta II is dead.
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3 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:
Well the same could be asked if any rocket. The only way to find out for certain is to try. And already having the know-how of landing stages could contribute to how viable it is economically.
Keep in mind, I'm using the same argument used to downplay the SLS (ie the 'no payloads' argument).
Also, the end of QE meant that a lot of rocket and satellite companies are going bankrupt or scaling down in the near future.
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10 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:
Well they've already developed the landing technology, it needs to be scaled up. That is difficult, though....
I'm not saying they can, I'm asking if it's economically viable. I have no questions that they can build it.
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Is the New Glenn even economically viable?
I know Jeff Bezos seems to think so- the issue being that reusable payload to LEO is 50 mT- far larger than anything launching today, even when considering GTO payload (~16mT)
It was honestly pretty surprising to me. I guess it makes some sense, avoiding competition with ULA- but avoiding competition is pointless if there is no market.
Not to mention there is no 2nd stage reuse planned.
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4 hours ago, Spaceception said:
No, there's a lot of people who aren't published, An author is someone who's published, a writer is someone who just writes, I'm a writer (For now)
.Careful, you could get a warning
Try setting a timer, 15-30 minutes, and write as much as you can, it's a first draft, don't worry about perfection. Cut it out later
Yeah, I suppose, I have nothing else to do.
No, I DO do that, I guess I'm just slow. Writing fiction isn't my best talent.
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49 minutes ago, 0111narwhalz said:
During NaNoWriMo, every participant is a full-time author.
I couldn't do that even as a full timer.
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H O L Y S H I T F A M
Look at me, writing 500 words in a day if I'm lucky. (usually nothing at all)
What are you, a full-time writer? Geebus!
Why did Greenland's Ice Canyon form?
in Science & Spaceflight
Posted
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland's_Grand_Canyon
I'm wondering how such a thing could form- before the ice sheets came in. It really is strange...