ManEatingApe

We're looking forward to seeing the first Caveman colony on Laythe! How were you planning on capturing at Jool? Standard practise is to use a Laythe or Tylo gravity assist, but without patched conics that might be tricky. I hear interplanetary aerobraking at Jool is possible as of 1.0.5 (in 1.0.4 it meant instant fiery oblivion) though I haven't tried it yet.

@MoeslyArmlis That is the most ingenious contraption! In the meantime, I managed to make it to Moho's orbit with a minimal probe, although lining up the intercept was extremely difficult due to Moho's tiny SOI. When I was close enough that I could see Moho in normal view, I chanced an unorthodox technique. By doing my best Clint Eastwood squinty impression, then leading Moho a little, the probe was able to pull off a deflection shot and clip the SOI. Album: Unfortunately there was not enough fuel to land, so @pasukaru76 I'll have to leave that up to you

Nice work! I'd definitely recommend ditching the monopropellent and RCS thrusters as the crafts are so small they don't need them. What I do instead is just switch between crafts once close enough and rotate them so that the docking ports are facing each other. The Ant engine is handy in this situation, it's puny enough that you can't fat finger the throttle and go shooting past your target. Agreed. I just tried the normal transfer window approach where I dropped my PE to Moho's descending node but without conics I couldn't get a precise enough intercept. Looks like I'll have to try the less efficient route of matching inclinations and gradually tweaking the orbits by eye. I'm budgeting about 7000 m/s dV (2000 over and above the optimal 5000 m/s needed). With 2.5 tonnes into LKO from each launch, I'm estimating 3 launches total for a minimal probe with Science Jr.

How light can you go I wonder? Each OX solar panel is the equivalent of 350 electric charge units, so there's probably a sweet spot where you can run your batteries down to zero just as you touch down. Question to other posters, is there a mod or trick that allows you to start with a Kerbal in a command chair? I've been using the low tech solution of rolling up another vehicle and walking the Kerbal over but perhaps there is a better way.

I've just watched the YouTube video of your mission As homework before any more missions I read all 13 pages of the original thread. It was fascinating reading, so many inventive approaches.

Wow he did! What a high bar to set, that was epic. Clever use of both ground side docking and orbital docking. For reference, here is the link to ttnarg's mission post I was just giving orbital docking a shot. First of all <facepalm> it turns out the the navball will show target mode once you're close enough (~10km not sure of exact upper bound) I hadn't realised this. It was mentioned in the original Caveman thread, so <sigh> RTFM lesson for me. However that makes docking just hard instead of extravagantly difficult. I sent up 2 ships, being much more careful with their ascents so that their orbits were almost identical, then time warped in the Tracking Station until they were close. I could then select target mode by double clicking the other ship in normal view. Then it was simply business as usual... I'm not sure which is a better approach yet, the Minimus assembly approach lets you be much less precise but limits the maximum size of any single to piece to ~ 1.1 tons. On the other hand driving a rover on the surface is a lot of fun! On the gripping hand Orbital docking is technically far superior, but you have to be careful on the ascent.

I was sure that you were already working on it as you've already ticked off Eve, Duna, Dres and Jool. I'd love to see you succeed, Moho terrifies me with it's insane 3500 m/s insertion burns. It'll probably need at least 2 craft docked together to get the necessary dV. Moho is such a sneaky planet, it looks so temptingly close, but energetically speaking it's further away than Eeloo. Just barely enough to break even. I had to carefully keep the craft oriented to face the sun or it would start running out of power.

@Bev7787 I'm looking forward to your Laythe mission, you'll be the first Caveman to send your Kerbal on holiday there! To pass the time I threw a rock pebble at Eeloo. No fancy multiple launches although the craft was right on the mass and part limit at 17.94 tons and 30 parts respectively. By sheer fluke I got a close enough intercept that after 1 save/reload I was able to tweak the orbit close enough to get a capture. Album:

Thank you, I'm honoured and delighted to join the clan. To make it easier to chisel the clan members' names into the cave wall using the primitive landing struts we have available, I've taken the liberty of providing each clan member's name in Ogham (an alphabet designed to be hacked into stone pillars): GoSlash27 ᚌᚑᚄᚂᚐᚄᚆᚇᚆᚐᚄᚕᚉᚆᚈ pasukaru76 ᚚᚐᚄᚒᚉᚐᚏᚒᚄᚕᚉᚆᚈᚄᚓ Caithloki ᚉᚐᚔᚈᚆᚂᚑᚉᚔ MoeslyArmlis ᚋᚑᚓᚄᚂᚆᚐᚏᚋᚂᚔᚄ Nefrums ᚅᚓᚃᚏᚒᚋᚄ wibou7 ᚃᚔᚁᚑᚒᚄᚕᚉᚆᚈ ManEatingApe ᚋᚐᚅᚕᚈᚔᚍᚐᚚᚓ Bev7787 ᚁᚓᚃᚄᚕᚉᚆᚈᚄᚕᚉᚆᚈᚄᚑᚉᚆᚈᚕᚉᚆᚈ

@MoeslyArmlis In true Caveman style there was no testing whatsoever done of the completed Space Train vessel before it launched from Minmus. It was a little nerve-wracking as I had not idea whether or not: With 14 docking ports the Kraken would strike immediately The thing would be manoeuvrable at all If it had enough fuel to even reach Duna! The ports were used as decouplers when each section was launched piece by piece from Kerbin and it looks like the game remembered this when I re-assembled them on Minimus. I really should have fixed the staging during the mission but just used the undock function instead. In 1.0.4 you could attach a docking port to a non-docking port piece. You could then detach but not-reattach this piece, a useful trick to save weight and part count. 1.0.5 has made this even better since you can now have the docking port decouple in the staging flow, a nice feature I was taking advantage of. No worries, just in case here's the direct album links Part 1 - Warmup, Part 2 - Assembly and Part 3 - Duna Mission and here's the albums reposted:

Thanks to @GoSlash27 and @MoeslyArmlis for creating and maintaining this immensely fun and entertaining challenge! I'd been intending to restart a clean 1.0.5 career game for a while and this challenge provided the perfect opportunity. I decided to try the 'Vanadium' level using a fresh un-modified 'Moderate' level difficulty game. The first few missions were straightforward enough. An unmanned mission to Minimus and back and a 2nd mission to solar orbit gave me enough science and cash to try something different. Firstly I hired a new Kerbal and renamed him 'Matt Kerman' for humour value (you can probably guess where I'm going with this...) Next Matt went to Minimus in the Locomotive stage: Then the science tender was attached: Then another 6 fuel tenders were sent to Minimus: Finally the Space Train was ready: Choo choo! Sorry Ike no time to stop. Matt then went to Duna and pottered about until running out of fuel Any volunteers for a Caveman rescue mission? Rather than create a single large album that might be a little tedious to browse, I've broken them into 3 separate albums: (1) Warmup (2) Space train assembly (3) Duna mission available after the spoiler:

@Mesklin That's insanely ingenious! You're more than 45 times lighter than the 1st entry. There's such a range of clever different approaches in this thread, SSTO, command chair ion shuttles, ram assisted rockets that it should be used as a tutorial.

There and back in 5.94 tons (craft file). Given what day it is I was feeling generous and even threw in a pod for Jeb to re-enter in comfort (It was technically possible to re-enter using the ion shuttle alone but that felt a little exploity to me) Highlight of the mission was Jeb repeatedly headbutting, erm precision nudging the pod using his EVA jetpack, in order to de-orbit after the ion shuttle's fuel ran out. Apart from a concussion and some minor unimportant memory loss, such as his name, address and friend's faces, Jeb made it back unharmed. Album for the truly dedicated

Yup on reflection, I was talking a load of cobblers. Here's @Yakuzi's excellent original thread that compares nosecones in 1.0.4. Powered by eggnog and the spirit of scientific inquiry, I was curious to see how much (if any) things had changed in 1.0.5, so I created this baseline craft (craft file) then using HyperEdit, placed it on Eve, at latitude 8.53065679509284, longitude 296.669318564622, elevation 544m with a variety of nosecones on top the boosters e.g For each nosecone type I set SAS to Stability Assist, opened the throttle to full and recorded the maximum height using the F3 menu. Taking the average of 5 runs for each type gave this graph: The intake were open (closing them had no effect) and the NCS adapter was empty of fuel To help make an informed decision here's the mass of each of the permutations:

That feels about right. Adding up my lander stages (for simplicity using the Vacuum ISP numbers) and adding in 300 m/s from 1/2 an EVA jetpack (my unofficial final stage!) gives 7,637 m/s to reach orbit from 200m above Eve sea level. So if you budget at least this, and are careful with minimising drag and with engine choice (Aerospike or Vector) as OhioBob mentions, then you should be fine.

Thanks @OhioBob, those figures are lower than I remember, Eve's atmosphere is so brutal! The Eve wiki page is still listing dV needed to reach orbit from sea level as 11kM/s, though with 1.0.5 aero changes that should be lower now. If you would like any further inspiration @Der Anfang, check out this thread here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/118750-post-10-lightest-sea-level-eve-ascent-challenge/

You're spot on, there's considerable room for improvement there. Placing the ladders on the 1st stage was a timesaving compromise on my part - I couldn't work out a neat way to create a ladder structure in the shadow of the heat shield. Another area for improvement is the nose cones. There's a thread somewhere that compares the drag of various nosecones in 1.0.5. I think the upshot was that practically anything is a better nosecone than the actual nosecones parts. The ramp intake for example is the same weight and has lower drag. EDIT: This is incorrect, see post below comparing various nosecones I wonder if the Vector got this undeserved reputation by being placed under Mk 1 stacks that it will drain terrifyingly quickly. It has a perfectly respectable Vacuum ISP of 315 and the joint highest ASL ISP of 295, so when used as designed for a lifting stage it's fine. Delta-V calculations are little tricky as the ISP varies with height. I don't use any mods, but here's the figures from my trusty Google doc spreadsheet. The ISP figures are bit of a SWAG. The first (250) is a rough guess from what I remember, the 2nd (295) the Kerbin ASL ISP of the Vector, the 3rd (315) is the vacuum ISP of the Vector and the 4th (345) the vacuum ISP of the Terrier. Lifting 3 Kerbals from the surface of Eve is bravely ambitious, I look forward to seeing your attempt!

By a happy co-incidence, I just rescued Zelbe Kerman from Eve's surface after 159 years! Some tips from the experience: Asparagus staging is your friend Drag is your enemy, keep your design clean, pare away as many ladders, struts and landing gear as possible Vector and Aerospike are the best engine choices for initial stages, as they are the least affected by atmospheric pressure. Terrier is a good choice for final stage, 2nd highest ISP of any liquid fuel engine and light weight. However if your final stage is a very light command chair design, then the "Twitch" engine could be better. Be prepared to leap for it! You may run out of fuel before circularising - if it's close then try completing orbit on EVA (with the Navball in EVA mode this is easier now) My design also included a science rover and came in at just under 40 tons (ascent vehicle only) for 1 Kerbal. It can make orbit from about 600m above sea level. Full disclosure: Eve ascent is possibly the hardest thing in the game. After 2 failed attempts I gave in and used HyperEdit to test and refine my design for the 3rd attempt (but not for the actual mission itself). Screenshots behind spoiler tag here:

Never fear! Jeb made orbit again and rendezvoused with a mothership for a return to Kerbin. A back of the envelope F = ma, gives m = 4 / (0.275 * 9.81) = 1.48 tons equilibrium weight for a lander with 2 ions. This weighed 0.88 (lander) + 0.09 (Jeb) = 0.97 total. Theoretical dV was ~ 3000 m/s, but with 2/3 of the thrust just counteracting gravity there was considerable inefficiency. Still enough to make it down and back (just) which is all that mattered.

Even though Moho doesn't get much love, one small silver lining is the insanely strong solar flux that means photovoltaic panels produce 5x the output compared to that of Kerbin's orbit. This makes it ideal ion territory, no need to drag around Gigantors when a regular 1x6 panel will produce ~90% of the power needed for a single engine. I was curious to see if a ion only lander with minimal battery was possible for a lightweight "flags and footprint" style mission. Without traumatising Jeb too much, managed to land this on the equator: as part of this mission: Gallery: Moho on a budget (+ craft file)

Very sleek design and the re-dockable rover was a neat idea. Also nice use of the new aero model (in 1.0.4 side by side Mk2 fuselages were very draggy and bundles of Mk1 tanks was the way to go). Next time hope you can make it to the Mun as well!

Spent this week going through the 5 stages of grief over the demise of 1.0.4's aerodynamic model, finally reached acceptance (helped by a nice glass of Yamazaki) Anyway time to roll up the sleeves... After some testing, it's not all bad news: * Breaking through the sound barrier is much much easier, no more diving, simply levelling off will do. * Increase in Oxidizer somewhat offset by savings in LF * Between 15000 to 20000 metres is the new danger zone, had several shock cones explode. Here's some photos of the progress so far: Tweaked my baseline Mk3 design and achieved 7,093 dV in LKO. Not as much as Tewpie's nifty mass fraction entry but still respectable. Has enough TWR to land on medium/low gravity bodies (e.g. Eeloo) and forgiving flight characteristics, so easy to land/take off on Laythe/Kerbin. Interestingly this design actually performed *worse* under 1.0.4, only got 6,500 dV once in orbit. Also redid the ion entry from the Laythe challenge. 9,075 dV in orbit (however only enough TWR to land on Gilly, Pol, Minimus or Bop). This was a fairly sloppy ascent so some room for improvement. The ascent under the new aero model was much easier and saved me 1 ton of LF but cost 0.5 tons of LF/Oxidizer for a net savings of 0.5 tons in initial mass. Still struggling with very small (< 15 ton) designs, but perhaps that's an unavoidable consequence of the new model.

Got distracted playing with the shiny new parts in 1.0.5... Since I don't want to contract an SSTD, perhaps we need a new acronym to avoid ambiguity in future, for my approach we could use A.M.P.L.E = All Major Parts Lugged Everywhere and for Pecan's S.P.U.T.N.I.K = Sensible People Undock Things Near Influence of Kerbin ...I'll get my coat Just last week, SABRE got a bunch of research money thrown at it, so fingers crossed that perhaps we'll see a protoytpe soon I like your idea of a craft that can reconfigure itself using docking ports (and since IRL the Apollo missions took the same approach it's probably a good plan ) It certainly means that we need a more fluid notion of what exactly constitutes staging. The best thing about KSP is that's there's always many ways to accomplish the same goal, so if I want to make life difficult for myself with no staging, I don't mean to imply that everyone else has to do the same!

You're absolutely correct, dropping the Rapiers would give an extra 2,000 m/s dV at least. However I was interpreting the challenge here to see how far you can go with zero staging or "no mass left behind", deliberately lugging all your initial parts across the Kerbol system, as in this challenge http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/117415-SSTO-to-laythe-and-beyond I found that the no staging constraint forced me to be more creative, as otherwise it's pretty straightforward to just add more stages/boosters to solve any problem. There were 2 areas it really improved my KSP playing: * SSTO design and piloting - You really have to hone your ascents to eke out as much mass fraction into orbit as possible. * It also made me really appreciate the beauty of gravity assists. I'd regarded them as a kind of curiosity before, but with limited dV they're an immensely useful tool to slingshot your way around on the cheap.

Nice formation flying! It's the KSP equivalent of the Blue Angels Any tips on achieving resonant orbits? Right now I wing it and hope for the best, but a more systematic approach would be better.