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PDCWolf

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Posts posted by PDCWolf

  1. 5 hours ago, jost said:

    Well a community manager needs to communicate not just with the community but the developers/project managers etc as well. So I would assume, that any (former or now) community manager actually has a lot more insight how software development works than some  guy/girl in a forum thread. 

    I myself didn't worked as community manager or software developer in video games ever. But I was part of a team responsible for the infrastructure in a large software project for a car manafacturer.  We had a lot more developers than the KSP2 team, non the less a lot of features were removed (after approval from our customer) and datelines shifted because it turned out, that things are not so easy as they seemed. 
    Were our customer happy about it? No. Were our managment happy? No (since we would only get payed by the customer after the released of the product aka the first cars were deployed with our baby on it).  Did we manage to finally finish the project and deliver a working software to the customer? Yes, we did. Any in later releases the removed features were to be added via updates (At least this was the idea when I left. I left before Covid though so I don't know how the pandemic situation made things worse. I would at least accept some problems since part of our infrastructure relied on a local network for performance. However: Since I know the abilities of my former coworkers I assume that they managed  to deliver the planned additional features, propably with pandemic induces delays.)  
    We didn't had to argue with angry gamers though, which was propably a big advantage. Angry customers and their project managers are worse enough :)

    So sorry to disagree with you: Due to my own experiences (although with different software than games)  I think the arguments of RayneCloud are actually more convincing than your complaints about some conspiracy. 

    [snip] I don't know how to disagree any harder with the idea that I'm criticizing a yet non existent final product, or calling the developers inept or incapable or whatever words a lot of people insist on putting in my mouth. Here's my list of concerns.  You'll easily understand that I do not mind so much the deadlines themselves being missed, but rather the lack of general communication, including the lack of provided reasons for the delays, along with the rest of the concerns.

    [snip] I'll probably have to repeat myself even more as people quote me to respond to a single nitpick instead of the whole argument: I do not believe the devs are inept or incompetent, I do not believe there's a conspiracy, I firmly believe they've left a lot of unclear stuff hanging around. It's not weird that people believing and hoping are ok with waiting in silence and people who like to see stuff with their eyes are not. I like tangible, shareable and analizable evidence [snip] plus once you add that list of concerns I have, it should at least be understandable for me to be... concerned, and wanting answers.

    Lastly, since somehow I also need to spell this out: I'm not demanding answers, they can chose to completely ignore me, other posters that agree, and controversies raised on their socials, discord and the subreddit. They have complete freedom to do that. I'll just rest easy knowing there's evidence of complaints existing somewhere. This however does not make me a megalomaniac, misanthropic, problem customer, emotionally unstable, attention hungry, a troll, or whatever else has been implied along this thread.

  2. 15 hours ago, Lisias said:

    In My Humble Opinion, a WAY better way to counter act criticisms was done by… Boeing! ;)

    A Jebediah plush was sent to space on the Starliner. EXCELLENT P/R stunt, I say. This is an argument I can see value on a discussion like this one we are getting around here.

    As we say around here in Brazil, "Águas passadas não movem moinhos" (water under the bridge do not move mills). What you are doing today is what matters.

    https://www.engadget.com/boeing-starliner-kerbal-space-program-jeb-212326380.html

    efba3d10-d94a-11ec-beff-898506cc1464.cf.

    Cheers.

    Yeah, I saw this live and loved it, though that article only makes marginal mentions of the game, other articles make a better job of explaining to the common person: 

    https://www.space.com/boeing-starliner-oft2-kerbal-jeb-zerog-indicator

    I had problems finding more articles about this to be honest, only found the one you linked and this one...

    Edit: As I find more information... neither T2 nor PD were involved in this, just a crew member doing a very lucky selection.

    [snip]

     

  3. [snip]

    Criticism is not abuse, and criticizing the visible outcomes of the development/marketing processes is not criticizing the final product, specially since it's now been well established that there's at least justification for the concerns presented. Also working as a community manager is not something I would qualify as working "on software", if anything your job seems closer to my field than development, heck if we're playing the credentials game I'd gladly fly my modder banner as well, but contrary to what you imply, I do know the differences.

  4. 7 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

    When you ask something once it is a question, when you keep asking it, and refuse to stop asking it until you get an answer, that is a demand.

    "Demand: to ask for something forcefully, in a way that shows that you do not expect to be refused."

    Just now, darthgently said:

    I think this nails it.  I don't think that @PDCWolfconcern's shouldn't be expressed.  But I truly question what he thinks most of the people reading these forums is supposed to do about his concerns.  Anyone who can do anything about his concerns have already been made aware of them by now and the rest of us can't do anything so it just gets really annoying to keep reading the same demands that seem to be directed at the wrong people.  Unless he is demanding that we be as outraged as he is in which case he will be sorely disappointed in me because I simply do not see what he is seeing as a concern and no amount of demanding will change that

    I've only repeated myself extensively because people would quote me, cite only one of the many complaints (because they most times quote a post in which I'm responding to somebody else) and then I have to add all the other complaints again to complete the idea that there's many complaints, not just the one about dev times, not just the one about delays, and so on. If I hadn't desired at all to engage in discussion I'd have just made that list as my first post and then disappear from the thread.

    28 minutes ago, t_v said:

    <massive snip>

    This is a really good effort to clarify the different argumentative lines going on in the thread, appreciate it.

  5. 19 minutes ago, darthgently said:

    The only way to be sure is to code your own game, and even then, you may have to settle as you are unlikely to be able to perfectly fulfill your vision.  Others are much less likely to fulfill your vision exactly.  But more to the point, the voicing of one's concerns doesn't come close to being necessary and sufficient to set in motion the addressing of one's concerns.  That assumes that your concerns have the weight you think they ought to have in others' minds (they very well may not) and that repeated voiceings of those concerns with increasing ire will have an increasing, rather than decreasing, effect on the likelihood of your concerns being addressed.  When you first started posting your concerns I actually "liked" them and found it a thoughtful take.   But I think you've gone beyond the point of providing useful constructive feedback and gone somewhere else that is never going to lead to your concerns being addressed in any causal way linked to your posts.  If your concerns about KSP2 quality end up addressed it will be not be because of your posts, but simply because your theories about lack of progress were wrong after all.  Just my take on it; I've been wrong many times before

    Once again, misunderstood. Me (we?) do not have demands, we're voicing our concerns and asking for answers as to put the concerns to rest, one way or the other. They don't need to answer to me, I'm not a megalomaniac that thinks himself the god of how PR should be done, nor do I think myself the voice of those with concerns, even if a couple other posters, and you at some point, have found common ground. 

    There's a big, distinguishable line between voicing concerns, discussing them with people that share them or don't, and me or others treating them as demands and the only way to move forward. My feedback has been provided, and further from that I've only answered to comments that quote me to discuss either the concerns, methods to post them, other discussion, etc. Though some posters do prefer to just nitpick one or two of the weak ones to dismiss the whole thing, which is why I find myself in the need to repeat myself, and now summarize on a list just so that I stop being misquoted or nitpicked.

    16 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    We’ve given you answers to all those concerns so many times

    No you haven't, you've given good, positive, hopeful messages of how the development might be going, and why they might do things one way or the other, or why you prefer to wait in silence. You must understand that the only final answers I care about here, outside of discussion obviously, is from official channels. 

    2 minutes ago, Lisias said:

    IMHO we are giving too much attention to the form of the message, and to few to the content.

      Hide contents

    Damn. I'm out of popcorns. Going to get some, "I'll be back!" :)

     

    Back when some mods from here (not sure if I can name them), Squad's PR and then some devs (and mod devs!) used to visit 4chan, they'd go there because even through the constant degenerate posting, insults, etc, they could still scrape good feedback (which shaped the game more than you could imagine). If you won't take what's possibly good feedback just because of the form, or because it is hidden under a pile of poop, then you shouldn't be the one taking feedback.

    Also since we're all flashing credentials to justify our points (or rather, just the "you don't know about software dev" card), I've only worked public facing positions in my life: Teacher, radio show host, and now director of a public organization, and that's mostly what's formed my idea of public communications and why the way they're engaging in it is subpar trash.

  6. 21 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

    And if the only thing that will address your concerns is a full gameplay walkthrough you'll probably have to wait another 6 months. The game is not yet complete. You'll see things like colonies and multiplayer when they're ready. Complaining about that every day until then isn't going to change anything. 

    [snip] Since you so insist, here's a full list that I can think of by myself, without looking at other posters:

    1. No communication for months, followed by a delay announcement with 0 explanation other than basic PR wording.
    2. Last real hands on gameplay dates from 2019, game's been in the oven for almost 3 extra full years since they were able to show gameplay, but were never able to show complete gameplay again.
    3. Only progress traceable to video evidence is new interstellar parts in 3 years of cumulative delays.
    4. Insistence on trying to pass asset mounts as gameplay (led to outrage that ended on them including "not real gameplay" notice).
    5. Just because it should be its own point: 4 unexplained delays.
    6. Failure to address broken promises: Breaking Ground unusable, Multiplayer for KSP1. They could do this outside whatever PR strategy they employ for KSP2
    7. Repeated failure to address multiple points in this list which exist before the delay and thus have been addressable since much longer than their previous updates.
    8. Zero effort on community growth.
    9. Failure to answer other questions, unrelated to development, in their social media (heck, there's even some good ones in their last twitter post for example, reddit too).

    I'm sure other posters have their own concerns not included in this list.

  7. 27 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    Which you will get, probably in 6 months or so. You can choose to deal with that however you like. 

    I think I said this in another thread: How can I expect my concerns to be addressed if I don't voice them? Waiting is a good thing, waiting in silence isn't.

    12 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

    The longer the better in my opinion. Just to let it sink in that this type of tactic doesn't work and never will.

    Glad corporations have honest people like you defending them from the consumer. What would they do.

  8. 24 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    Sure, it’s completely reasonable to ask the first time, maybe a second or third. But this is like the 30th post you’ve made in this thread complaining about the same thing. We get it. We hear you. You think its all secretly a disaster and you won’t believe otherwise until you see it. Thats fine. Just sit tight and wait to see it then.
     

    Once again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

    It's not evidence of progress either, the only way to disprove absence is with evidence of the contrary.

  9. 2 hours ago, Gargamel said:

    A product that nobody has paid a cent for yet.   The studio is not beholden to any of the fans yet, only themselves.   They’ll do what they want when they want, because they know that even the most vocal naysayers will be the first in line, cash in hand, when that day comes.  
    Till that day comes, there’s other things in life that will fill your time.   Much better to be enjoying life than to be sitting here making up rumors and supposition on a topic few people know any details about.  

    Wrong take. In fact, I believe this was discussed about 10 pages ago. KSP2 might have no customers yet, but there's a literal forum filled with decade-old franchise customers ready to spend. Plus, it'd be really dumb if they enable preorders tomorrow, and I could go and put money in the thing just to prove you wrong.

    Another vomitive take is calling criticizers naysayers, we want the product, we believe in the product coming out eventually, of course we're going to purchase it if it fulfills our checkmarks. This is why no PR person ever comes out talking about haters or naysayers, they know better than you. Further on, purchasing the game doesn't prove anybody right or wrong as, again, we're here because we want the product and want it to reach release to play the thing. I don't think there's a single person in the thread or the forums that came to excrements on KSP2 or it's developers/development to then not purchase the game, unless something terrible happens. Worst case scenario, 3 delays have made people forget about the game, but that's a different tale.

    24 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    Well then you know by now that we are nearly a year from release and the things you are asking to see are still being actively worked on. It'll be ready when it's ready. I don't think it could be simpler. If for some reason the game gets delayed until summer or fall or if T2 suddenly goes bankrupt and the game is shelved literally nothing bad will happen to you. Your life will be exactly like it is now. 

    Sitting in the back and asking "are we there yet" every 5 minutes doesn't make the car go faster. It just makes the ride unpleasant for everyone involved. 

    KNOW is absolutely the wrong word. For me to know the development is going, I need proof, otherwise I'd be believing the development keeps going. I like to believe it keeps being developed. Of course nothing bad would happen to us if KSP2 gets cancelled, and people sacked, etc, but that's not the point, once again, we want to purchase the game, that's why we're here!. Asking are we there yet between adults would incite a mature response about distance to the target or if we plan to stop along the way for gas/bathroom, we're talking among adults here, as much as you might want to resort to rhetorical name calling. Plus, it's not been 5 minutes, it's been months since the last video, and now it's the previous response to the "are we there" plus some extra months, so good thing we keep asking.

    24 minutes ago, Lisias said:

    <big snip>

    And since we are the ones that are going to provide such money and interest in the future, the discussion on hand are not that dismissible.

    Prospective customers should be treated as customers, business 101. This is specially true when prospective customers are knocking at your door cash in hand. Good thing at least one person in the thread understands. 

  10. 10 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

    And 20 years ago you got a game from the store on a CD rom and it had the bugs it had and you fixed them yourself or learned to live with it. 20 years from now it'll be climate change wars and global collapse and video games will be a forgotten luxury. We're literally living in the golden age of Dev's giving a damn and still its not enough for some people. 

    20 years ago games had a level of polish that's been on constant decline, I was getting free shareware off magazines so good that would warrant a trip back to the store the next day to purchase the full game, would know since not only was I alive, I've also got a decent collection of both shareware CDs from mags, and actual game CDs from the time. Every new release requires at least a day 0 patch, let alone multiple hotfixes, or 7 years of delivering missing "features" for NMS.

    9 hours ago, t_v said:

    Ok, I’m glad we’ve reached this point, since it ends the argument. It seems we have drastically different worldviews. I believe you can choose to talk in positive terms without having to discount the entire story, and you do not. We can continue to debate on semantics (preferably not) or on details (let me know when you have a detail you want to discuss) but the issue of whether positive comments are “ignoring problems” is not one that will be resolved. Now, we can look at other factors, such as the uselessness of getting worked up, but the actual full state of the game and any problems we know about have been acknowledged, as well as anything that could reasonably be a problem if certain inferences are made. 

    You assume I'm worked up because you only see me post here. That's fine, but remember that everybody here is human, with their own life outside what they post in the forum. I'm trying to have a decent discussion and only responding to the people that specifically quote me, or feel like they dodged me, except for my first post, but obviously I wouldn't be here if I waited to be quoted on any given topic before posting, now would I. KSP2 is only one of many releases I'm following, and this forum is again one of multiple places I participate online. I'm sure this is true for a lot of people.

    7 hours ago, PopinFRESH said:

    And you are consciously deciding to suggest bad stuff, this is why I call it "blind hate", you're literally figuratively closing your eyes and typing something negative.

    Tell this to Sean Murray. I'd argue he single handedly dismantles this notion and what seems to be your expectations, both before and after the launch of No Man's Sky.

    Being a NMS player, you're going the wrong avenue here. That game started as a scam and took them almost 6 years to implement poodle-depth systems to call their game feature complete. Thankfully KSP development has bothered to go a little deeper than that on every individual system. Further on, the internet went absolutely wild on them, and they got investigated for false advertising, barely clearing the investigation (which focused on its steam page alone). If anything, No Man's Sky is a perfect example of how not to work a pre-launch media campaign.

    4 hours ago, Lisias said:

    I wont call it "hate", but I can't criticise you for doing that neither. But definitively, it's not "blind" - there're clues (if not evidences) that he have good reasons to think how the does. It doesn't means he's right, tough. It only means that perhaps he can be.

     

    That's an excellent argument. All the heat NMS got was by Sean Murray losing the control of his anxiety and ending up talking too much before the game release. NMS would still be a bit bleak and somewhat dull game on the launch, but these weakness would not had be so evident at launch without all that heat he inadvertently started by talking too much. 

    And, really, the game was good enough to be released. All that bad press was undeserved - but I can't say it was uncalled for...

    Staying silent while doing the work is a good way to handle the heat from some stakeholders - as long you have support from the primary ones (the guys that are funding you),  and, believe me, Seam Murray didn't stayed silent to them

    IMHO both you and @PDCWolfare forgetting that besides we are stakeholders on this project too, right now we are not the primary ones - we are somewhere between secondary and excluded at this point. :sticktongue:

    Until we start to throw some money on the product, they don't own us too much (if any) explanations, so unless they are being naive as Sean Murray was, they are only telling us what some key dude there (a primary stakeholder for sure) thinks they should be explaining.

    There're good arguments on both sides of this discussion, and I think we could be getting even some more insights about what's happening if we manage to remember that when arguing.

    I do know the importance of consumers, we're the ones that are gonna give them the profits, some of us even qualify as franchise consumers, being here for a decade now. I'm sure they're addressing all of these delays and feedback internally, would be great if they said something useful externally though as, as I said before, the only thing going on right now is they've not enabled preorders, which is still an avenue of questioning in itself, but gives them a good couple points at least.

    We can't argue or discuss anything if people list issues and concerns and people just jump on them as they're some part of negativistic sect and call "gobbledigook" on them proceeding to look away and ignoring. I've had more fruitful discussions with flat earthers at this point.

  11. 3 hours ago, t_v said:

    Ok, so first, I’m interested in seeing what promises they have broken, and who you consider as breaking promises. Because we have seen that Squad has broken some promises, and T2 has broken promises, but has anybody on the current KSP 2 team previously broken promises beyond something tangential like biweekly updates? Not counting the developers  who transferred from Squad - I don’t think the devs intended to break the promises that were made around multiplayer or other stuff. 

    Secondly, the impact of responses needs to be looked at. (This is in reply to the “blind praise and eternal patience”). People are not ignoring the past, they are simply interpreting it differently from you. While you may see a delay as an indication of a problem in the studio, others see it as a natural part of game development. Additionally, it is not blind to praise a developer studio for their achievements even if they do have problems (which remember, is still under debate). People can be happy that the devs are making progress (and I wager that you are too), and they can choose to express that happiness instead of expressing their dismay at another delay. It is a difference in how you choose to respond to your outwards situation. And everyone has “eternal patience” because everybody is going to have to wait until the game is released, whether they like it or not. You might as well choose to change how you feel about such things and have a better time in these next nine months.

    Concerns are perfectly valid - but consider when your interpretation of events is not the only plausible one. What I see a lot of people saying is that we simply don’t know what is going on, and making (reasonable) inferences will not lead to anything and for some, it casts too much of a negative light on an unknown situation. As always, we will see soon enough what the situation is, whenever the game comes out or gets canceled or whatever else happens. Let’s just enjoy the time up until then, because we have already seen that plaintive requests for a change in company strategy is met only by the NDAs that the devs probably had to sign. 

     

    2 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

    I don't think they've grown so much as two or three of you just repeat the same arguments over and over again. We have indeed answered in good faith, offered completely reasonable and obvious explanations, you just don't agree. I still don't entirely understand why you're so disgruntled about all this or why you seem to take any of this personally, but thats okay. You're completely entitled to your opinion. 

    I'm gonna group these two comments in a single answer: I feel you can't say "ok you're doing great" to these type of news without consciously deciding to overlook the bad stuff, this is why I call it "blind praise", you're literally closing your eyes and typing something positive. Not only do those kind of comments bring absolutely nothing of value to a discussion (this is a forum, we're here to discuss stuff), but at this point you've gotta overlook so much stuff to just say something like that that we can't just agree it is "interpreting facts in a different way".

    We can discuss how much we know about what could be going on, we can discuss their track record as publishers, developers, etc. We can discuss a lot of stuff around this, because the more this crap happens, the more of it piles up to discuss, and the tighter you need to make your field of view to overlook it. However, we're in the official forums, this is the specific place to overlook the bad and just blindly praise, to the point where saying "concerns are not growing" when you keep your eyes in here is outright disingenuous. Every single piece of KSP2 news brings more and more negative comments on the subreddit, steam discussions, and other places, and yes, 2 or 3 people in the congregation of blind praisers.

    As for "People can be happy that the devs are making progress", they need to show that progress first before we can talk about progress, otherwise we go back to blind praise.

     

    2 hours ago, Deddly said:

    Guys, guys, you've forgotten how it works. This is the proper procedure:

    1) Developers tell the users details of some feature they are planning to work on. 

    2) Some users get excited, others fly into a rage because they don't want that feature, and its very suggestion is robbing developer time from other things that are absolutely objectively far more important. 

    3) Developers realise that the feature isn't going to work as planned for some reason and the plans change. 

    4) Some users: "You lied to us!" 

    5) Developers are more careful about their communications moving forward. 

    6) Some users: "You haven't told us anything in weeks, you're deliberately hiding bad news otherwise you would have said something by now!" 

    7)  Developers: "Here's an update" 

    8) Some users: "That's not good enough, we were expecting you show that other thing!" 

    9) Developers "Here's another update."

    10) Some users: "OMG YOU STILL DIDN'T SHOW THE THING! You must be lying to us again because you did that before so it is an unequivocal fact that you are liars and the only conclusion is that you have cancelled the thing I was most looking forward to, which means we, the community, were all looking forward to it." 

    11) Developers: "Here's another update, and it's pre-alpha, which means it's actually in-game footage!" 

    12) Some users: "Pre-alpha?? You've barely even started the game! I don't know what pre-alpha means but it sure sounds like you haven't done anything at all, because "alpha" is a recognised industry-wide concept that means "awful piece of junk that isn't ready for release" and "pre" means before even that. AND YOU DIDN'T MENTION THE THING! You are clearly deliberately avoiding the issue because I know for a fact that you read all my messages, so you are just lying again. We demand the thing, and we demand that you report your progress to us (especially about the thing) on a regulator basis, otherwise we will refuse to stop demanding these things! What's more, we refuse to pre-order the game until such time as a pre-order system is set up, and if you don't tell us about the thing, we won't buy the game until it's RELEASED! That'll teach ya."

    Since you like lists:

    1. Meeting accusations of lying with silence only rises culpability. This is true since one reaches its 5th birthday, and for anything from breaking a plate to a police interrogation.
    2. Being out of touch with your fans is a thing, specially on a formed and very specific franchise such as KSP. Multiplayer for example has been massively asked for, then promised, and now demanded since it's been promised. Back in the day they tried to hide behind "people not wanting resources" using fake stats (google hits for "ksp resources" proved wrong by people posting "ksp kethane" metrics, among other stuff), obviously they had to backpedal and now we have ISRU in game.
    3. You know full well the complete extent of what you release to the public. If the outrage is about A and you release information about B, you're damn well gonna get a deserved mention of A all over the place, to the point of whatever new you brought to the table about B being completely drowned out.
    4. Last point is just you thinking everyone is ignorant of how gamedev works, something a lot of people like to do, even in this thread alone. People were right to call out early footage not being a pre-alpha, and some of it not even being real gameplay, and thus once again we had another huge backpedal on footage subjects (no more "pre-alpha" gameplay, just mounted scenes to render assets) and a nice warning of "not real gameplay" on some footage with included motion.

    That list sounds like the publisher needs to get new PR people onboard, somebody that knows what they're doing.

  12. [snip]

    11 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

    I just don’t think any of these things are that unusual nearly a year out from release.

    ~3 years from release date 1, ~2 years from release date 2, ~1 year from release date 3. 

    11 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

    As has been pointed out we’ve gotten way more information and feedback about KSP2 than much bigger games like Starfield and Elden ring at similar stages.

    This was made in very bad faith, and I'm really sad it's caught on as an argument. Starfield, Elden Ring, etc, come from companies that have decades in the business pumping out game after game on multiple franchises. Sure, a lot of them might be not good games, and one of those companies certainly has built up a reputation (or already had it if you didn't fall for the skyrim fad). KSP2 comes from one of the worse publishers out there in terms of how they treat their products and community, and KSP2 itself is being developed by a studio formed by poaching, boat jumpers, and what remains of the original people that rushed KSP1 to release just to "prove people wrong" that the game wasn't green.

    8 hours ago, darthgently said:

    smh. Good luck with that

    This is like the first comment I quoted but worse, you decided to completely ignore the counter argument, the concerns, and the evidence. 

    The fact that they've already broken promises (other than the release date, you can completely ignore that) is real, that's why the people who've really been paying attention to what's going on have actual concerns and not just blind praise and eternal patience. You might feel like ignoring all of what's happened, other people do not. Further on, their PR/CM keep completely failing to address these concerns, which only makes said concerns grow. 

  13. 9 hours ago, RayneCloud said:

    I have no idea what to say to this, other than, this reads like someone whose never worked on a single software or game project before. 

    I think we'd both agree that deadlines are missed for a reason and not just sport or tradition. That's as much as I have implied. 

    9 hours ago, darthgently said:

    We need to stop perpetuating the myth that we know what is happening and that it is not what we've been told and that the reports we've gotten are some kind of conspiracy to fool us into something or other. 

    We've been told things are moving along throughout pandemics, corporate tectonics, dev team square dancing, and have been told about additional features not originally planned for;  all of these things are going to equate to some delay.  Any number of people who actually work on projects like this have stated that this is all fairly "normal" as unpleasant as it may be.  There is zero reason to perpetuate the "worst case scenario".  

    Creating things takes time.  The more work involved the more time involved.  Delay does sometimes equal better.  But the bottom line is that we either trust the reports we've gotten, or we invent a counter narrative out of imaginary fabric with zero basis in anything that somehow dovetails with a worst case scenario (or close to it).  I'm finding the counter narrative a bit dramatic and not well founded for my tastes.  I can just tune it out but thought I'd at least get that into the thread before going about other things again

    No. We've not been told anything about features not mentioned since 2019. Other than that, we've been told a lot of things that fall into the same hole as Breaking Ground robotics fixes and multiplayer for KSP1. People have already been brought to buy stuff under promises that were not fulfilled. Now sure, we're in the official forum, if anything this is the one place were people would gladly overlook that. Further on, there's another lot of things we've been told, but if it was just for saying stuff, I've got a crate of snake oil that needs a buyer.

    There's already reasons to not trust mouth-only reports, to not trust delays, and to not trust any release date. Whether you want to look the other way is up to you, but at least don't try to sound as if complaints and doubts are unfounded.

  14. 29 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

    So long as we also drop the myth that deadline missed = you are an incompetent fool who should not be making anything little alone something as important as a video game

    I never said they were incompetent, my words were that a deadline missed means there's a problem, either in the process or its management, you don't miss deadlines just because "you wanna make it good", as making it good is part of the plan for which the deadline was set in the first place, and that deadline usually includes some level of tolerance for imponderables as well.

  15. 30 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    Well as has been discussed in several other threads we saw almost nothing from Elden Ring or most other games when we were nearly a year from release. It doesn't mean anything, good or bad. The core gameplay from KSP1 is known, and the bits we're missing--colonies, multiplayer, and other nice things like mission planning and how UI will handle interstellar encounters and long-duration burns are in all likelihood still being developed. If the game is coming out next Jan-March we'll probably see demonstrations of most of that late fall/early winter. From what I've seen Im pretty optimistic. It's perfectly okay if you wish to see a negative result as a default assumption, but there's no evidence to support that either. 

    This just circles back to my initial statements: If they needed 3 extra years, why set a 2020 release on 2019? If all of that is still under development, what were they going to release back then? if all of that is new, why hasn't the scope moved from the 2019 PAX statements? Only transparency solves these questions. And again, right now the only saving grace is that they haven't enabled preorders in the past 3 years, which still opens up the question of them doing that because they knew they needed 3 years instead of 5 months to release.

  16. 1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

    Man Id really advise you to take a tour through the dev blogs and show and tells over the last 18 months. Many of those interstellar engines were shown before Nertea signed on, not to mention a lot of other development both in terms of environment and terrain and things like resource processors, reactors, orbital shipyard components, etc. Maybe you just missed this stuff? 

    I'd advise you to be realistic: Seeing models on terrain is literally nothing other than models on a terrain, the same goes for models of reactors and other components. The only hands on gameplay we've seen is the couple seconds of footage inside the vab and then launching and staging, and nothing more. Anything further is either heavily implied "gameplay", or straight up asset renders, or some pretty flow diagrams and written up stuff, but that's not even the game part of gameplay.

    29 minutes ago, Master39 said:

    snip

    Part of your comment is answered with what I wrote above. I'm trying to be grounded here and not assume stuff that hasn't been explicitly shown. If you see a building on a planet, you're going to relate it to colonies, sure, but you didn't see anything at work other than the model of a building sitting on a terrain, the only thing you can take for granted about the "colony system" is models on the ground the rest is mostly talk and not-game media from devblogs.

    For the rest of your comment, the only pressure directly put on Valve outside memes was 2 fans outside their building holding a sign, which relates back to what I already said: They don't give a crap about what you or me or anyone else "demands", the community and "toxic gamers" have no power to force a studio to rush a game, and that myth should be put down next to the one about delays making good games. These "toxic gamers" made it so difficult to release stuff that Valve has released 3 or 4 games since (including one from their flagship IP), lots of hardware, their own linux based operating system, and so on.

    Why you'd choose to pick valve and ignore the rest of the examples is probably because it looked like the easiest nitpick, but no, they've kept releasing games (except those on development hell lol), and ignoring fan "demands".

  17. 1 minute ago, Master39 said:

    Not "studio reshuffles", you're making it sound like they just fired a couple of people, opening a new studio from scratch, that didn't exist before, during the first COVID lockdowns and work from home orders.

    On top of that you can add the increased scope of the game with the new studio.

    I know you desperately want to believe that there's something more sinister going on, but look around you, basically every other game or movie has been delayed over and over again for the past 2 years.

    I'm trying to see the thing from the other point of view, KSP is not a cashgrab game, it's too niche for that and Private Division since buying the IP in 2017 put a lot of money in it with just the 2 15$ DLCs as the only new KSP content they sold. 

    There's a lot of money being funneled in KSP2, remember, every time they delayed the game 1 year more meant another year of T2 investors footing the bill of the whole studio without the game generating any profit, they're showing a certain amount of confidence in the game.

    And let's also add that people would gladly pay the 60$ for a modern remade version of KSP1 (maybe with just a more complex IRSU and progression mode) and then 30-40$ each for colonization, interstellar travel and multiplayer (I know it sounds unacceptable now, aftery they already announced them as part of the game).

     

    I'd also say that with the original Star Theory KSP2 could have got away with a way more unpolished and unfinished experience as a third party studio working with PD than Intercept can now, 3 years later.

    Especially now, after Cyberpunk, and a bunch of other AAA games launching in a sorry state and with some indie titles coming out of nowhere in early access with way more polish than we usually expect from such gsmes and surely more than KSP had in 1.0 (games that the KSP community may know like Timberborn or Dyson Sphere Program)

     

    If they wanted to go for the greedy cashgrab they lost all possible trains, if they did want to cancel the project they wouldn't have reconfirmed the launch for this fiscsl year to the investors, if something bad is really going on at this point it's at the publisher level someone funding studios and project without checking the results.

    But looking at T2 and their labels overall I would say that they know a thing or two about publishing profitable games and cutting their losses, I wouldn't expect that kind of incompetence from them. Greedy yep, but surely not incompetent in what they do.

     

    Both directions are equally dumb, delay = delay, you can't extrapolate any more information from it.

    Because from every game that was delayed and was bad there's at least one that wasn't delayed enough and released in a sorry unpolished state after a crunch maraton for the studio involved.

    Oftend the two overlap significantly.

    There's 0 proof that the scope has expanded. Their current promises still respect all of the original PAX statements. Also that people that would gladly spend 200 dollars on 4 independent DLCs they can get as mods of the first game for free exists only in this forum, in these threads, which have limited participation. Do not kid yourself to think KSP2 is big outside anywhere but the forum. Already the $60 tag will definitely alienate anyone who's not a fan of the first game, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot charging that.

    You fail to understand that we, as community, have 0 power over them. This same dumb thinking plagued Cyberpunk's criticism: "It would be better if you hadn't rushed them to release it". That's bullcrap, if there was anyone rushing them to release it was shareholders, whom they promised release dividends to, other than that they don't give 2 cents about a group of 100 people in a thread begging for a release date inside their lifespan. On the other hand, we know full well what happens when you don't rush them, and that is you never ever get a product, kinda like Valve's shenanigans, kinda like DNF, Yandere Sim (lmao), Dead Island 2, Star Citizen, and again, a very long list to keep naming.

    Just now, Pthigrivi said:

    @PDCWolf they seem completely passionate about producing a great product and I see no sign of deception or ill-intent. They're obviously hard at work.

    Which makes me come back to: The only thing that ever changed in trailers from PAX 2019 to Episode 5 in 2022 is new looking interstellar parts, which to their detriment is a change that happens to coincide with them incorporating the dev from the interstellar mod. State your position as it is: faith, almost religious level too.

  18. 18 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    Well you are well within your rights to be skeptical of big studios. Most of my trust here comes from the impression I get hearing  folks from intercept talk about process in the dev videos and dev blogs. The proof is in the pudding of course but it sure looks like they’re taking the time to be thoughtful and make something really special. 

    We need to stop perpetuating the myth that delay = better product. We don't know the current state of the product, or the reason behind the delay. Spore, Crackdown, Duke Nukem, FFXV, FFVII Remake, Cyberpunk, latest Watch_Dogs, Halo Infinite, Hydroneer 2.0, Diablo 3, and a longer yet list, that's still growing too. The quote so often thrown around was made at a time where you couldn't just live-patch your game after release, so not only doesn't apply because it's just outdated (and didn't apply much back then either), it also doesn't apply because the industry works in a fundamentally different way. 

    Delay = The promised product at best. On the average case, it means they needed extra time to release whatever broken, mandatory 0 day patch product they already planned to release.

  19. 6 hours ago, Master39 said:

    You very conveniently ignored the half of what you're replying to that tried to remind you that's not only COVID, but a change in studio during COVID that set off the bigger delays.

    Because it tries to imply that a game set for release in 5 months from announced can be delayed 3 years only over studio reshuffles. The first delay, as I said, I'd understand, Covid pushed the game back a year whilst they sorted the Covid+PI mess. The rest remains unexplained, he said it himself that way too: 

    9 hours ago, PopinFRESH said:

    I'd say Covid 19 had an impact on the first delay to Q3 2021.

    28 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    100% this. I probably shouldn't have even opened the can of worms, but yeah, just throwing it out there as a plausible possibility. Regardless it does seem to be a passion project for the folks involved. 

    Which is 100% their fault for not being transparent. I'll not believe any "passion project" copout with T2 behind it.

  20. 16 minutes ago, PopinFRESH said:

    But that isn't true. It was announced in August 2019 for a release in 2020, as shown in the announcement trailer. Shortly after that announcement is when Take Two was trying to acquire Star Theory and subsequently established Intercept Games. That obviously would have been very disruptive to production and alongside that disruption they were forced into lockdown at the end of March 2020.

    So yeah, announcing a 2020 release and then having to adapt to losing half the staff, onboarding new staff to the project, and doing so with an abrupt shift to remote work I'd say Covid 19 had an impact on the first delay to Q3 2021.

    Let's assume you're right. You'd be saying that Covid turned the last 5 months needed to prepare the game for release into a full year, that's more than reasonable if it actually went down that way. Now, where do the other 2 years come from? 5 months to release means the game was very close to ready, they'd be probably on the beta stage on that timeframe. Further on, let's assume these 3 years have been super good for the development of the game, and they've made strides... They've literally shown nothing to account for that. This is either a very dumb choice (they need the goodwill obtained from showing progress) or there's really little to no progress made.

    These sets of assumptions, yours and mine, only open up more avenues to question them, instead of doing the opposite. This is why communication is important, and transparency even more so. A vague video with less than 3 minutes of pre-alpha "gameplay" and literal blender renders every 5 months is nothing, disrespectful even when you look back at the stuff from PAX2019 and see the only new thing they have to show is parts. It is made specially disrespectful if it still ends up in a delay, as you clearly weren't communicating the important stuff, and then the delay is announced with a copypasted "we want to make it good" discourse we've all heard before from many developers, and some from products that still ended in disaster.

    If anything, I'll give them credit for not enabling preorders diminished by them not doing so on the basis of knowing the release date was unrealistic.

  21. Just now, Profugo Barbatus said:

    I would propose a third option, actually.

    KSP likes to think of itself as a game of discovery and exploration. Much like the other aspects in the sequel, my guess is they want to keep as much of the mystery as possible on as many things as possible. Revealing substantive things in the marketing (mechanical elements) starts to open questions about how they work, what the systems are, progression, etc. Players will naturally start to metagame their way around a lot of the systems in advance. Keeping systems such as Colony Operations under wraps with just peeks into it in other videos about simpler mechanical things keeps that mystique, prevents players from trying to precompute things instead of figuring them out when they first land a colony module on the Mun. The less new parts, the less new planets, the less new systems and mechanics they show off, the more there is to be surprised by and discover at the end. That leaves mostly showing off technical art, or small aspects of pieces of the game.

    Its a terrible conflict for me because I do love the discovery and figuring out systems aspect, but I also really want to know whats coming down the pipe. I don't believe this offers much excuse to not talk at all about multiplayer before release though - That is very much a technical system, and not a gameplay one in the sense that you don't really discover what the limits are, you probably want to know "Can two of my friends play with me or only one" well before release for reasons outside the actual gameplay.

    For that to be true, they'd have to backpedal on what's been the main business policy of the videogames industry: Sending early review/PR copies to big media outlets and youtubers. KSP has been doing this since the "public test branch" outrage. This leaves the average consumer only 2 options: Read and spoil yourself, or be forced to a blind purchase. Now, it is pretty much a given that gaming is the only market where the informed consumer is beaten and looked down on, but listen to this:

    People that want to make a blind purchase should be the ones forcing themselves to, and not forcing everyone else to do as them.

    3 minutes ago, PopinFRESH said:

    Just as your first point is valid, your second point is invalid.

    "time in the oven does not translate to a better result, or even the originally promised result" - valid, a delay does not necessarily mean the end result will be an improved experience or finished product.

    "Delays don't signify the developer "wanting to do a better job", they signify the developer doing a bad job, where they haven't been able to meet goals inside deadlines." - Invalid, a delay does not necessarily mean the end result will be a worse experience or an unfinished product.

    While I don't know how Intercept Games handles their workflows, I would be willing to bet that like most modern software development they use an Agile development process as opposed to a traditional waterfall approach. Deadlines are nearly the antithesis of an agile workflow, however, because the general public and investors/business managers don't tend to think like developers they still have to guesstimate milestones and timelines for the rest of us. Scrum is about an iterative loop to help elevate your constraints (Theory of Constraints and Agile is a rabbit hole of interesting topics worth delving into if project management is the type of thing that interests you).

    Like I've said elsewhere, the last delay they forecasted out a 25 month timeline based on a plethora of speculative estimates of all the various systems and features intended to be included at launch. They've had about 18 months of work to help them narrow that forecast window based on their throughput over that 18 months. Obviously there is the potential for scope creep and feature creep as an iterative process often does result in novel ideas that spring up during that process. This is the constant challenge for the PM trying to balance those constraints.

    So in summary, a delay could point toward either outcome. If you view it as a greater potential for one or the other I think tends to be if you are more of a "glass half empty" or "glass half full" type of person.

    Deadlines are there for a reason: They clamp on the scope and feature creep, and stop a product from entering development hell. Deadlines are a needed part of a project, otherwise nothing would get done in a timely manner, under the excuse of just "making it better" in whatever minuscule way. Whilst you might be a "glass half full" person and agile evangelist, evidence and precedent would be against you in this particular case, specially more modern evidence.

    2 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

    So from your point of view a developer who meets unrealistic deadlines is the one who is actually doing a good job?

    Heh, I guess from a certain point of view that is true. Certainty not going to be the end user's though, that is for sure.

    A good job is planned, and executed. A good deadline includes leeway for imponderables inside that ideal good job. This is their 3rd (4th?) deadline change, pointing to a problem somewhere in the process, or in the management of said process. Not only that, you're assuming with no proof that the deadlines were ever unrealistic: It is important to remember that the game was going to launch almost 3 years ago, with a date being published in 2019, before Covid. How a pre-Covid date got screwed over by Covid and pushed back 2 years, then another, and now 3 months, for a product that was ready to release 4 to 5 months from announced back in 2019 is probably something that's going to be analyzed over and over again by their internal teams to never make this same mess again, specially having the fresh example of CDPR losing like 60% of it's shares value over a similar incident.

     

  22. 4 hours ago, Valintena Kerman said:

    It's actually nice to hear that the game is being delayed because then we know it's gonna be good!

    This means nothing, and every day there's more and more examples that time in the oven does not translate to a better result, or even the originally promised result. Delays don't signify the developer "wanting to do a better job", they signify the developer doing a bad job, where they haven't been able to meet goals inside deadlines. This is probably one of the worst myths plaguing the consumer side in the modern videogame market.

    Being right should feel good, but in these cases it just hurts. If the only thing you ever managed to show in your trailers, spanning from PAX 2019 all the way to the very last "Episode 5"  is new parts (and that comes only after you hired the interstellar mod dev), then progress was really not there. Further on, a 3 month delay does not fit development tasks, so either:

    1. They're delaying to finish post production, which would also mean they've chosen to not show anything useful on their media. OR
    2. There's yet another delay coming further on, but they're going the cyberpunk route of announcing "PR manageable" small delays, instead of incurring the obvious penalty of announcing the real delay needed.

    Now, that's not much of a prediction, either they release or they delay, obviously. But just to pick a side, I'm placing myself under number 2.

  23. On 5/6/2022 at 6:46 PM, Ahres said:

    I want to talk more about this possibly being a screenshot. I really hope it is. It's just about everything I want to see when I land on KSP2's Mun for the first time. The only thing missing is some footprints, and they may just be in the shadow. Look at the terrain! The scatter, the small craters, even some small rilles! Rilles! Never even thought about them being on the Mun. And the lighting is wonderful. High contrast between sunlight and shadow. No visible starfield. My fellow lighting critic, @PDCWolf, might even approve of this. Man I hope this is in-game.

    Not a screenshot. Rocks are unevenly distributed, there's artistic ambient lighting (in-engine would be global, not specific to the Kerbals). It might be a game-asset based scene with brush-applied rocks (which would explain the weird rockless patches), but I can bet it's not in game.

    Edit: The cinematic trailer from 2019 does not include in-game footage. Maybe in-engine, but not in-game.

  24. 25 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

    Oh for sure, no doubt. But people will get bored of it eventually and having heard about KSP2 around the same time might mosey on that way. 

    Hard to hear about KSP2 when all your storefronts have "STARFIELD" in big letters plastered on art from the game, which has been the case for most recent big game launches.

    This on top of KSP2 probably going for a 60 USD tag would be really suboptimal, even if people did find out about the game in this alleged "space game craze" that starfield may create, most would probably still be out of budget for a second 60 USD drop, even more if Starfield comes with some sort of deluxe edition or season pass or whatever. They need to make it it's own thing, using T2 money to make the storefront theirs, and not go hoping for the falloff of whatever Bethesda does.

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