Jump to content


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by PDCWolf

  1. 15 minutes ago, SciMan said:

    Small issue there. That particular facet of releasing the game might be in Steam's hands

    It is not. Steam does suggest prices, but the dev has the last word on regional price. In fact, you can not even accept steam's suggestion and leave a game not available on a region because you didn't set a price in a certain currency.

    Crusader Kings 3 = 50 USD or 540 ARS.

    M&B2 Bannerlord = 50 USD or 2499 ARS.

    F1 22 = 60 USD or 6399 ARS.

    Developers have absolute control of the price of their game in any individual currency.

  2. You can hella see the influence the modding community has when materializing ideas into tangible mods. When people talk about multiplayer they don't even question the monolithic persistent server + hotjoin clients model that both MP  mods used. I envision multiplayer more or less like that as well, but I'd value small games much more: I dislike per-player timewarp, and would prefer timewarp to be host-fixed. That's a huge no for big, public servers, but definitely the way to go for small, all-together sessions. Plus now that we'll have FTL timewarp might not be as necessary once that tech is unlocked.

    I'd go as far as to guess all possible solutions have already been mentioned and thought out, which is why they were so confident to promise multiplayer two individual times, and sell it as a base feature for the sequel. Like pretty much every other big "feature" they've "made", the modding community solved the problems first, and all they had to do is watch and learn, and then copy (or just hire the modder lol).

  3. 10 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

    I'm reading you just fine. It's very hard to follow to take anything you say seriously when your statements are akin to a text version of a tantrum. Ok? Probably not. You have valid questions, but I had to ignore half of what you wrote because the writing you used is causing an immediate anger response. That isn't helpful in any type of discussion or argument.

    Your questions are, in no specific order; Why did Squad/PD stop developing KSP? Why even make KSP2 when those resources could be used to fix KSP1? Why isn't PD answering for the sin of destroying ST? Why isn't Intercept trying to win me... PDCWolf over as a customer? Many people have either given you the answers from either the staff themselves or logical answers from life experience of being professional software developers or sources outside of this forum. But you don't care. I have a funny feeling that even if Nate himself answered all your questions with absolute candor ignoring the NDA's he surely had to sign, you still wouldn't care. You would still find fault in what would be said. I hate to say it, there is no answers for you in this forum. Just let it go.

    You're reading me just fine and then warp my questions by including your own assumptions of what I'm thinking into them. Just to clarify: All those questions are literal, and I'm sure that whilst related, they can be answered separately, enough that I don't need to assume and imply things like the ones you assume I did. On top of that, as I said, I'm free to do with the information provided, or lack thereof, as I see fit. Will I take the devs at face value? Will their answers end up creating more questions instead of solving issues? who knows, but I think any answer is better than no answer.


    9 hours ago, Master39 said:

    Your decision it's affected by price, ok, so you totally forgot that they didn't say anything of the gameplay or shown anything for years. No comunication at all 'till the last possible moment, and yet the game was a success.

    As I said, 1 minute after release and people, even the most vocal about it, completely forget about the marketing campaing or how the info of the game was revealed. The same will happen to KSP2, they'll start the marketing and this topic will be unpinned and end at page 10 within a few days.

    Your first assumption is completely incorrect:

    KSP2 is a product I am interested in, and a franchise I've been a part of for more than a decade, with enough investment as to create and publish mods for the game, and buy every DLC that's come out. Thus I'm heavily invested in the future of the franchise and the next sequel.

    Elden Ring is a product I did not follow, and though I do own DS2 and DS3, really didn't care about (you can search my steam profile and check my playtime). However, I do have friends that are heavily interested and invested into the franchise, the kind that can't shut up about every single detail, and want me to purchase the game to play with them. I wasn't even interested in communication from the devs, I took the other route and just gave people months to play the game to make an informed decision. I can however attest that my friends have been acting like I do for KSP2, they've followed every single bit of news and leaks.

    5 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:


    Just chiming in over the gif here: The glass broke because they hit the doors with a sledgehammer first, which they didn't account for when they tested the ball bearing against the glass before the presentation. Integration test vs unit test. If they did half-bake anything, it's the order of the tests.

  4. 1 hour ago, shdwlrd said:

    @PDCWolf Put yourself into the devs shoes. You give info, and you're accused of holding back; told by some "internet expert" you're doing it wrong; or you should be working faster. You try to explain an unpopular decision, you're accused of lying, not listening to the community, the project is going to hell, etc. No matter what you say, honestly or not, it's never good enough. So why say anything at all? That's what happens 95% of the time. You don’t know about a game or sequel until it's ready and about to release. 

    Despite what you think, Intercept, Squad, Private Division don’t owe you or the community anything. They don't have to answer questions, they don't have to release information, they don't even have to complete KSP2. This isn't some crowd funded venture where you already have given money to them. It's funded by some faceless company. This faceless company is the only people that can demand anything from the devs, not you or the community. That's just the facts of business. You may not like them, but it is what it is.

    It's like you're not reading me. They're free to not explain and not address concerns, and remain completely silent until the product is done and released. I'm also free to voice my concerns and do whatever I want with the answers and info they provide or with their silence if they don't. My concerns and reasoning are as valid as their response or lack thereof, and at the very least I'm gonna make sure my concerns are clearly laid out, just so that "you didn't ask" isn't an excuse down the line.

    We should also take the time to learn a bit: Developers don't say anything, they're hired on a payroll, come in and do their work. PR/Marketing teams are the ones doing the talking to us, and they're also on a payroll and a clock, and are specifically paid to obtain the best possible response to a product.

  5. 1 minute ago, Pthigrivi said:

    I hear you, and no one should treat their financial decisions frivolously.  You should absolutely scrutinize before buying anything. But there's time yet before that happens. By all means wait until the full gameplay videos are released, until reviews come in, until the game is past that rocky post-release buggy phase that all games experience until you're comfortable making an investment in your own time. Thats all completely reasonable. You and I both are just hoping at this point. 

    Let's not confuse waiting patiently with silence. If concerns are not voiced, how can we expect them to be addressed? 

  6. 10 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    @PDCWolf I think those are all good questions and I'll try to answer them as concisely and honestly as I can, not personally being intimately involved with the process. In the months after the original trailer many folks including myself believed the originally advertised release date to be, shall we say, overly optimistic. None of us here knows what happened in the turmoil that followed, but if I were to read between the lines its likely some of the more passionate and earnest folks involved believed that given the scope the game needed more time to become something truly special. 

    And I completely agree, there's a huge difference between a projected release window and an announced release date. Who knows! It could mid or late 2023! It would be a bummer, but thats okay with me. I just want a good game, and as long as it takes it takes. I do think there's reason to believe however--again, reading between the lines--that it will probably be released within a year. The show and tell on procedural radiators for instance doesn't just tell us "Hey this is a cool thing we developed". They could very easily have just given us a few radiators from small to huge and let us deal with the inflexibility. If they didn't its because they felt like they had the time to do this right. There are also clues in the dev videos like the complete 'Karecibo' message implying, perhaps hopefully, that the next phase of marketing will be the game in a complete form. That might be 2 months or 10 months away, but it's probably closish. 

    As to your last few questions; you should take a trip through the Multiplayer thread to get a sense of how difficult it would be build a functioning system let alone something that would please most people. KSP is 100% my favorite game of all time and I can say that and still admit that it was a buggy mess the whole time and career mode never actually worked. It was a novel product from a young studio, and the challenges they took on to produce something truly new in the world were both astonishing and the results were never perfect. Given the thousands of hours of genuinely engaging time I've gotten out of it Im pretty okay with that. Intercept had the luxury of being able to take all those truly awesome fundamentals and trying both to build them right from the ground up and to develop a system of exploration and colonization that really sings. I hope it does! And all the evidence I've seen from the dev blogs to the show and tells and featurettes lead me to believe they're taking the hard problems seriously. 

    The thing is I've been through that thread, and if you know about developing software, or games, you'd know "pleasing most people" is just a thing that doesn't happen, specially with engineering type games. Whilst the devs, you, and other participants might like to play hide and seek behind the "huge challenge", the community has already gone and made 2 different multiplayer systems work, in the shape of mods. Further on I imagine that, at the very least, an idea of how to solve the challenges and implement the solution would have already existed both times it was promised, for the original and sequel games. Otherwise there's another concern for my list: Why promise multiplayer 2 separate times when you had 0 idea how to work it out?

    The rest of your post is speculative answers to my other concerns, which really bring nothing but faith to the table, and I don't include faith in my financial transactions.

  7. 47 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    So again, patience my man. 

    I know this wasn't me you were quoting, and I agree they can't show stuff they haven't done yet, that should be pretty obvious.

    First off, the 2022 date was taken off their earnings call (or another economic document, can't remember), and the release date on Steam, though that's been there for a long time. Point I'm trying to make here is 2022 is still not confirmed in a realistically compromising way. 

    On this same note, as an information seeking customer, I'll add the fact that we've had a studio swap and a delay. All of that happened after they announced the game to be coming out only a single year later. I believe you'll have to give it to me there in wanting more information.

    • Did they have anything done when they announced the game was only a year away?
    • What have they done since then if the game was a single year away?
    • Why do you need to give yourself an unconfirmed date till 31 December 2022 when you had a product that was a single year away from release?
    • Why has it been 2 years and we're still seeing more or less the same thing with the only difference between footage from 2020 release date and 2022 release date being new parts?
    • Why are we on the same year the game releases yet you're unable to show hands on gameplay and are still showing untextured asset renders?
    • Why did you guys promise multiplayer for KSP1 and then never let out a single word about it again?
    • Why has been KSP1 left abandoned in a super buggy state?
    • Why is Breaking Ground even worse in the bug department, even when the community has already investigated (and solved) the issues?

    These are pressing concerns that we are more than justified to have, that they've still failed to address. Even when they do not have a single obligation to answer, it does effect their public opinion of them.

  8. 5 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

    You should be grateful that they've put many years of effort into something you're going to enjoy.

    This is business, not a charity. I'm not "grateful" nor do I have to be. I'm on a market looking to buy a product and they're trying to get me to purchase theirs. 

    5 hours ago, snkiz said:

    No one is forcing you to spend money. I'm not commenting on internal politics, that ship sailed a long time ago. Perception of scale requires some understanding on the the task they are trying to achieve. Modded ksp is AAA. Add up the collective time developing that. Why do you think  T2 is bankrolling this? for charity? [snip]

    Developing a game for X amount of time does not make it AAA, as the definition comes from budget, which makes it funnier considering KSP1 + mods are all passion works with almost negligible budget. On top of that, we really don't know what budget they're working with for KSP2, specially considering how little new stuff they've actually shown for it. It's taken them this amount of time to produce something that has been identified time and time again as "ksp1 with mods".

    You are right that nobody is forcing me to spend money, but I'll remit myself to my sentence replying to the other poster I quoted.

    5 hours ago, TheOrbitalMechanic said:

    We don't even know for sure if they'll offer preorders, but alright, then. Don't preorder it.

    I'm doing business with them, not with you. I'm free to demand and then purchase (or not) as much as they're free to completely ignore concerns like mine and lose my preorder along with those of people who share this point of view. 

  9. [snip]

    Oh yeah, I should totally be grateful I get to give them money, oh how magnificent and magnanimous of them to let me give them my money.

    4 hours ago, snkiz said:

     The only reason you know anything about ksp 2 is they pulled the trigger prematurely, then everything changed, and then covid.

    Private division had a product and pulled the trigger, then T2 formed a new studio and poached their employees, sending KSP2 to this new studio and leaving PD in the dust. THEN Covid. 

    4 hours ago, snkiz said:

    Seriously have a good look at the dev time on AAA of this scale.

    Perception of scale is clearly subjective. Nothing on the footage looks like anything we can't get out of modded KSP1.


  10. 15 minutes ago, razark said:


    As in, you haven't given them any money for KSP2 yet?

    As in, you're not their customer at this point in time, and they are not beholden to you in any way?


    Ok, then.

    Customer of the franchise and almost all its related services. Guess you don't own a business that sells a product, otherwise this'd be basic knowledge: Brand loyalty sells, and has to be maintained, and when it fails, the entire business fails. This isn't even going into even more basic stuff like forming a good image in the eye of potential customers, specially since a game is not a product of need, so sales are all but guaranteed.


    7 minutes ago, Master39 said:

    Let's suppose they don't say anything, they stop interacting with the forum altogether and then, suddenly, they release all the info in a week culminating with the actual launch of the game at the end of that week, would any of us do anything different only because they choose to inform us when they started to sell the game and not months before?

    Well, they first of all lost my preorder, and any preorder from people who follow the same principles. You might be loyal and/or impulsive enough, and with enough money to just throw at stuff you like, I'm not, I'm neither in fact.

    8 minutes ago, Master39 said:

    My answer is nope, I'm going to buy Elden Ring after they were tight lipped till the last possible minute (I still haven't because I'm playing other games), I'm going to buy Starfield regardless the fact that we only saw concept art and we'll probably see gameplay only in the weeks before the launch and I'm going to do the same for KSP.

    I could afford Elden Ring right now and I want to play it, I'm not purchasing it till it drops at least to about 50% its current price in my region. You also seem to grossly overstate the interest in KSP2, if you go outside the forum and subreddit, the game is pretty much unknown and everyone already forgot whatever they saw on the last big gaming event they showed it on.

    11 minutes ago, Master39 said:

    The marketing strategy they choose for the game is not at all relevant for the quality of the game, it's not going to affect the result in any way, and most likely it's not even in the hands of the devs, being the game backed by a big publisher.

    Only if you don't read into it. The marketing of Cyberpunk clearly reflected an extreme oversell, easy to see that the game wasn't going to be even close to promotion material, so much they had to start cancelling features 6 months before release, after 4 delays. Most of those features they cut, they didn't even manage to show once, whilst other appeared a single time in the whole years of marketing. Of course, the marketing granted them the most preordered game in history, but also the worst ever launch, multiple lawsuits, and the highest stock value drop ever for a game company. Even blizzard's "issues" didn't lose their stock as much value (40% loss for actiblizzard vs 80% for CDPR).

    17 minutes ago, Master39 said:

    Blizzard is not exactly an example of a good developer I would make, especially lately, but look on their comunication department regarding Overwatch 2, they did show 2 or 3 things, still no release window, delay after delay, no updates.

    Wrong, they showed enough to drive their non loyalist community to outrage, as OVW2 was indistinguishable from OVW1, driving them into delays to actually make a product, the one they now are actually not showing stuff about.

    19 minutes ago, Master39 said:

    When the game will drop the whole community will forget about the wait and the hype, as always with all games.

    The world is not "expecting" KSP2. There's almost 0 talk in any place that is not here, the subreddit, or the comments of KSP1 youtubers.

  11. 1 minute ago, razark said:

    What's to be held accountable for?  The devs should be accountable to their customers, and right now, not a single person on this forum is a customer.

    The game will come out, or it won't.  The game will be good, or it will suck.  Not one bit of information/screenshot/video/whatever is going to change any of that.


    11 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

    Now sure, I can wait till release date and let other people play it first, but I'm guessing they do want my preorder, along with everyone else's, and my preorder comes attached to the condition of both pricing, and them making a good job of informing me as a consumer. 


  12. 2 hours ago, darthgently said:

    Didn't say they should skip it all together, just that if it isn't fully debug'd on release day I really don't care as it doesn't matter to me.  I don't want making multiplayer perfect to hold up a release.  Is that more clear?

    I don't know.  It isn't like we are voting on a new way to do elections here or something actually important.  It is a game; entertainment.  I've been informed enough by the vids that have dropped.  I want to be surprised (pleasantly, of course).  I don't need to know everything about KSP 2 nor do I want to know.   Just as I don't want to know everything about a movie before I go to see it.  No spoilers is a good thing; or used to be. 

    When not informing customers on all details prior to a game releasing is deemed to be some kind of harm, and the remaining mysteries make the customers feel anxious or unsafe in some way because the unknowns are too overwhelming we could be in big trouble as a species. 

    Repeated requests for more spoilers and more control over the dev process could be seen as a form of beating on those who don't require such things.  But I'm not making that claim, just pointing out that there are many angles from which to look at this

    Let us not confuse spoiling stuff, with revealing the capabilities of the software. Answering questions like:

    1. How well does it work
    2. Will it have X feature at launch
    3. Will X feature be part of the scope, or is it never coming

    Do not spoil anything at all, specially when the game is built as an allegedly bettered version of an existing product. The marketing they've shown till now includes less than 2 minutes of actual hands on gameplay, and when you add the 2 year delay with a still mysterious release date, really doesn't bode well for whatever will come out. Now sure, I can wait till release date and let other people play it first, but I'm guessing they do want my preorder, along with everyone else's, and my preorder comes attached to the condition of both pricing, and them making a good job of informing me as a consumer. 

    You seem to think "more information" means them showing me easter eggs, stats for every planet, a detail of all parts with their numbers, and that couldn't be further from the truth.  


    2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

    One person says art is made for the basement because real artists don't need validation, another says he's saturated by videos coming out every 5 months basically showing KSP1 with mods, another is afraid of the spoilers of knowing the absolute minimum about new core features of the game before buying it, another wants it to be a persistent world cooperative massively multiplayer game. We all have some cooky opinions, that's for sure.

    As I said, Gaming: The market where you're beaten down for trying to be an informed consumer.


    4 minutes ago, razark said:

    I used to find out about new games by going to the store.  Release date were announced by a box being on the shelf.  Previews were screenshots on that box.  Feature reveals were the text on the box.

    Has patience become so damn rare now?

    I'm almost 30 now, I was alive back then, and you'd get FREE SHAREWARE CDs of stuff to try, with a nice "if you like it, it releases xx/xx/xxxx, purchase at xxxxxxx". Of course, games now don't even fit a CD, or even a full on storage drive anymore, so we can't have that, but we have this amazing thing called the internet where you can show me an unlimited amount of media about the product without concern for mine or your storage, or wasting my time with a bad demo that also took the space of something else on that shareware CD.

    After we had patience till 2020, shoving a 2 year delay with a release date still in the air is good enough grounds for patience to run out. Some people like to think that every dev you hold accountable will pull off a cyberpunk, and every dev you don't hold accountable will pull off a duke nukem, it's neither in reality. Accountability helps the product in the end, like it did NMS, like it is doing for Cyberpunk, and like it is doing for many other games. 

  13. 15 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

    Devs have got better things to do than pander to those that get a heart attack when they're not saturated by information for more than 3 seconds.

    You mean the things they weren't doing that caused a 2 year delay? Also if you think a video every 3 months and a  15 second clip of an untextured asset every once in a while is "saturation"... we've clearly got very differing standards.

  14. 1 hour ago, Vl3d said:


    It's more than validation - it's also the co-op building process, the learning process when seeing what others have built and, most importantly, it's the first time technology is good enough to actually allow players to build and expand the game world. After which comes exploration - the main KSP single-player reward.

    My very first MP experience was the best: I joined a random server and went to space to rendezvous with a station, only to find out it was a cloud of debris from what used to be a phallic shaped docking hub. That's when I realized the potential.

    4 hours ago, darthgently said:

    If anything is skipped or shorted to get KSP 2 out the door with solid gameplay  and stability I hope it is multiplayer and not something else, so I can wait on it longer if need be, lol

    If they promised it for release and skip it, that's not gonna look good, as much as me or you might care about multiplayer. That's a lifelong stain as much as the original SQUAD promising multiplayer then selling the game and running away.

    41 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

    You want more marketing and better communication. You need to stop being so needy.

    Gaming: The only market where informed consumers are looked and beaten down by... other consumers who wish to not be informed.

  15. 1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

    Quality over quantity, yall. The game will be plenty big. What matters are the dynamics—diverse resource puzzles and tight mechanics. Nobody will be able to assess that until the game is released. Until then, chill. 

    Already gave you the like but that's not enough. 

    Playing NMS, Sims 4, Cyberpunk, etc. you learn to appreciate deep puddles much more over shallow oceans. A couple of well intertwined, interdependent, deep systems, will trump loosely tied, individually canned "mechanics" any day.

    7 hours ago, darthgently said:

    [specifically quoting the image]

     Multiplayer was promised for the original KSP. Still waiting on that,

  16. On 4/28/2022 at 8:20 PM, Pthigrivi said:

    Maybe we could all admit that pricepoint optimization is not something any of us are experts on?

    Price optimization is not something consumers can tackle, simply because of bias. $100 might be "worth" if you balance against playing the game for 10 years, but you've effectively alienated 90% of possible customers, as $100 is only a standard for collectors editions and other, bigger deals. Initial price is a barrier of entry, the very first one, no matter what pretty name people might want to put on it.

    I bought FS2020's Premium Deluxe because I know it's a product that won't have competition or a sequel for at least a decade, and it's going to give me thousands of hours, until a foreseeable alternative comes out, plus it carries an entire second market of payware/freeware addonds that will follow in its steps and abandon previous products. 

    On the other hand, KSP2 right now looks mostly like a graphical update with some mods integrated into it, right after being bought out by a AAA publisher that gladly participated in poaching and cutthroat politics to sink the original studio in charge of the sequel. Further on, it now has a sea of competitors at indie price ranges that whilst not exactly filling the very specific niche, come damn close. Lastly, the original game was $15, bumped to $40 years down the line when the "release" came. Whilst their greed might be high enough for $60+, purchasing intent for this price range* [i believe] is very low outside of easily recognizable loyalists.

    *edit, this part is important.

  17. 1 hour ago, Kapitalizing Every Word said:

    Whoa didn't expect to see (or read?) another argentinian. 

    There used to be a couple of Argies chatting around in the Spanish subforum. Plus Ezequiel (Ayarza, from Squad) is also Argentinian. 

    1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

    What does Argentina mean?

    Argentum = Silver, Argentina = Made out of silver.

    1 hour ago, intelliCom said:

    My experience with Cyberpunk 2077[...]

    Oof, I purchased on release, it's been like 2 years and 100+ hours later and I still regret my purchase.

  18. 12 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    Thanks for pointing this out @PDCWolf.  Purchasing power is easy to take for granted if you’ve grown up in a country with a strong currency, and it doesn’t become obvious until you’ve spent some time in places with relatively weak ones. Its even easier to miss the historical reasons for these disparities. Given that KSP originated in Mexico and was such a triumph for educating a generation about space travel I think making the game as widely accessible as possible would be a great gesture. 

    Thankfully, Steam is based and holds a complete record of my purchases:


    Back when I purchased the game for myself, 1 USD = 5.15 ARS back then, so ARS 72 for the game, when monthly wage was 3300 ARS (these numbers are about to go crazy, welcome to inflation)


    I then purchased the first DLC 5 years later, ARS 180 at 1 USD = 38 ARS (would be USD 4.7 converted back). Monthly average wage back then was 11300 ARS 


    Also at the same time gifted the base game to a friend, notice how the now converted and regionalized price on a sale was less than the DLC, and about a third the price of my original purchase. 


    Finally, BG released 2019, when 1 USD = 44.7 ARS, so converted would be 6 USD. Monthly wage at this point would be 12500 ARS.

    Now, if we assume KSP2 releases at a non regionalized 60 USD, I'd be paying 9900 (conversion + taxes), at a final price of 1 USD = 190 ARS, with a monthly wage of 33000 ARS. That's a huge jump, directly into non-affordability. Also yes, this retrospective depicts a 100% inflation in 6 years if you look at wages, but %3700 if you look at the Dollar.

  19. 7 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:


    6000 ARS is 50 dollars, that's more worth it if anything.

    it'd be 6000 ARS + 65% in taxes (21% local VAT, 8% "solidarity" tax, 35% for a dollar transaction to a foreign party), not only does that make the game completely  inaccesible (almost a third of the average monthly income), it also misses the point of regionalizing prices at all which is:

    6 hours ago, The Aziz said:

    Missed point: difference in income.

    Price regionalization was brought forward to equalize markets and ensure everyone has equal access to games, this is why games are exceedingly expensive in places like switzerland for example, but South American and Russian markets tend to be the "cheapest". I on principle refuse to support companies that fail to see this point. For you, 50 dollars might be chump change, here it's about half a month's wage, pre taxes, which means (and this still applies) that greedy AAA companies that convert their prices without regionalizing them have zero sales in our market and sailing remains very high.

  20. 1 hour ago, snkiz said:

    I don't think that's true at all. Scott doesn't really do Kerbal videos in his main YT channel, Matt, and Marcus have successfully transitioned to space news, more or less. Das has a Job with NASA Spaceflight. Shadowzone does it more as hobby. With his background in software development, I expect his review to be fair if considerate of behind the scenes issues most  people who expect a triple A title in less than 5 years would never consider. These people love KSP to be sure, but if it's a dumpster fire they are going to feel betrayed. That doesn't make for good cheerleaders.

    Those are all people that have KSP as a secondary theme of their channel, not their primary. Scott, shadowzone, etc never made content where they played KSP recreationally, it's always related to a concept they want to talk about. Matt has transitioned into news but the hit to views is clear, with real life videos having about half the views as his Kerbal videos. Stratzenblitz and VAOS, for example, are people that only make KSP content. Whilst I don't think either of them will have a conflict of interest, they are to lose a lot if they're forced to diversify.

    My preorder/purchase actions will heavily depend on how they regionalize pricing. If they go the AAA route thinking USD 60 = ARS 6000, that's a never buy, because not even on sale will it be worth it. Currency equivalence is not regionalization, and I don't support that practice out of principle.

  21. On 4/16/2022 at 2:18 PM, OHara said:

    And that silhouette image seems to represent a craft painted a very flat black (or rendered with an inappropriate ambient light setting).  The sum of far-away stars does of course produce ambient light in interstellar space (lighting the nebulae, for example).  While not having been in interstellar space personally, I would expect a white craft to be look nearly as bright in that ambient light, as a blurred average of the stars in its background. 

    If there was a mirror on the craft, I would see the starfield behind me in that mirror, which on average is as bright as the starfield in the background of the craft.  If the mirror is frosted, the starfield is blurred, so I see uniform illumination in the mirror with the same average brightness.  If we have white paint instead of a frosted mirror,  that paint scatters probably only 80% of the ambient light, so I expect the craft would be a bit dimmer than the average of the starfield in the background.

    You seem to be the one most interested in an actual mathematical approximation.

    On 4/16/2022 at 2:32 PM, t_v said:

    HDR means high dynamic range, that is the dynamic range setting. But it doesn’t have a slider. If you slid the range all the way up, you would be able to see all objects, no matter how bright, at their relative brightness, but since a computer screen can only display so many different brightnesses, a lot of things would be near black because the absolute brightest thing would be white and depending on the shot, everything else would be drowned out. 

    Yeah, Space Engine's HDR setting has its limits, plus it's either on or off. However, other settings like magnitude limitations take priority, as they directly hide objects below X magnitude. If you bring all the magnitude limits to max value, you'll see the entire universe, to the absolute peril of your computer.


  22. 35 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    My b. I was making fun of all of us for having a silly debate but it did sound like I was mocking you @PDCWolf.  Sorry about that. Not my intention. I totally agree about how nice it would be to vary the exposure even beyond what a typical camera would pick up if it mimicked what astronauts describe or even just gave the right feel in the moment. 

    Never took it personal, that's why I said "ridiculing the argument", not me.

    25 minutes ago, t_v said:

    @PDCWolf can you also take a few more shots with both exposure settings of:

    Callisto surface at night (preferably with Jupiter out of frame)

    A very light colored ship in deep space

    and if possible, with dynamic range of 5 (I think that's a normal camera) around 20 (the human eye) and some really big number to see the difference. 

    This is mostly because I can't own space engine and would like to see how these scenarios would look.  

    Night at Callisto, no Jupiter to be seen, with same both settings as the previous post > Exposure "0" and Exposure "-9.5" (yes, it's all completely black).

    A very light colored ship in space - Here's the famous IXS Enterprise (She's bright white almost all over) , on a random patch of the Milky Way, with the galactic centre visible. Exposure "0" and Exposure "-9.5"

    Space Engine does not have a "dynamic range" setting, it's either normal or HDR. I'll give you some bonus shots of multiple settings on that second situation.

    Expanded magnitude limit, normal exposure, HDR:


    Heavily over exposed, with artificial ambient lighting, and HDR:


    Custom non HDR setting to bring out nebulas and clear some stars



  23. 28 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

    Since we’re debating for 4 pages how bright a fictional nebula of unknown size and distance would apear to an imaginary camera Id also like to know How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    As much as you might want to ridicule the argument you forget that, since we're speaking of a camera, the math is all there to be calculated. Whilst we might have differing opinions on what is better and what isn't, the objective truth of what would a camera see in the interstellar medium is easy to find. Human eyesight is also pretty much calculable as well, which is what my first mathematical argument pointed to.

    I took a camera to the surface of Callisto, and adjusted exposure such that I'm not blinded by anything. Stars disappear from the sky, though the other moons are bright enough to remain as point sources. I kept the settings visible in the lower right corner.


    Now, with those same settings, I moved the camera to random interstellar space midway from the core of the Milky Way. Welcome to the void. 


    Since I'm not a fan of this either, I suggested in another thread that the camera should adapt its exposure.  Here's a setting that allows us to see stars, the galactic centre, nebula, and even Andromeda back there. This is superhuman, but a camera with enough aperture and exposure can do it.


    This is what happens when you go back to Callisto's surface with those same settings:


    If you can see the green magic cloud, you can see stars as well (though still not the ship). You can't have one or the other, you either have both or nothing (this is exactly what your picture hints at). Further on, human eyesight has much better dynamic range than a camera, which is why astronauts can attest to such a full sky of stars when in space.

  24. 7 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

    Well you can see nebulae with a small telescope, so if Kerbol happened to be very near a nebula you'd probably be able to see it. As to the color you can see some tinge without filters. True colors range from blues to greens to pinks and purples. 

    This is a true color image of the Trapezium, part of the Orion Nebula:

    What are the scope and camera settings for that? Because if you used those exposure settings anywhere else, you'd go blind in white as soon as anything brighter showed up.

    6 hours ago, Ahres said:

    So why is that not the case here? Are the brighter/closer stars simply drowning out much of the stars in the background?

    Bright stuff definitely hides anything nearby that's less bright. That's pretty much the point of the other thread. From that thread we also know that astronauts at night, what'd be the shadow of the Earth can see uncountable stars more than being on Earth. Even at night atmospheric extinction and pollution are still a thing here. Whilst the Rocinante image is exaggerated, the only thing that'd change is you'd see less stars total. I'll boot up space engine in a while and just take a couple shots, the objective side of this topic is clearly lacking some finalizing closure for some.

    5 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

    It's also a small part of a much larger nebula that extends throughout the frame of this shot. And you really shouldn't keep a constant exposure. Human eyes adjust to different light levels, let alone flying magic player perspective cameras. Again, just make it as pretty as it can be. 

    Yep, point of this and the other thread: Exposure should adjust to the situation, so if super bright nearby stuff is in the frame, you don't see stars. If nothing bright is nearby because you're in interstellar space, you see almost all the stars.


  • Create New...