Search the Community

This is an unofficial continuation of Ferram Aerospace Research by @ferram4 updated to latest KSP version. The original thread can be found here. New source code repository: https://github.com/dkavolis/Ferram-Aerospace-Research All content now licensed under GPL v3. From the original thread: Update to version 0.16.0.5 "Mader" (Note for Kopernicus users: DO NOT overwrite MFI that comes with Kopernicus since it is locked to that particular version) ALL USERS: NO LOGS OR REPRODUCTION STEPS = NO SUPPORT Original Review: Aerodynamic Failures: Building a spaceplane and talking about editor GUI stuff: Features Shape-Based, Vessel-Centered, Aerodynamics - Long, thin shapes drag less than wide, flat shapes, and smooth changes in body width reduce drag. The shape of the vessel as a whole, not individual parts, controls drag, so shape the vessel as you see fit. Emergent Fairings and Cargo Bays - The voxel model method FAR uses allows for the actual shape of the vehicle to play a role in how lift and drag are applied. Build a hollow shell, and close it up, and everything inside it will be protected from the airflow as it should. Wing Effects - Realistically adjusts lift based on wing position and configuration: wingtips lift less and drag more than wing roots. Stall - Passing the critical angle of attack suddenly reduces lift and greatly increases drag. Can put planes into tailspins, flat spins, and cause crashes. Mach Effects and Area Ruling - Lift and drag will vary as expected with Mach number. Supersonic planes will need to properly area rule themselves for optimum flight characteristics. Body lift - All parts lift: a fast enough brick will fly, if not that well. Download: Get v0.16.0.5 "Mader" from Github! Official FAR Craft Sharing Thread Post your crafts there, not here, please. Violators will have their posts moved by moderators, and will have everyone very annoyed with the additional workload for both moderators and me. The FAR wiki at GitHub The source at GitHub Everything licensed under GNU GPL v3 Part.cfg changes powered by sarbian & ialdabaoth's ModuleManager plugin. Interface with stock heating system and other mods interacting with the physics system powered by sarbian, Starwaster and ferram4 ModularFlightIntegrator Toolbar powered by blizzy78's Toolbar plugin. Installation: Copy the GameData and Ships folders into the KSP root directory and merge them with the existing GameData and Ships folders. Make sure that you copy over everything in the GameData folder. Serious issues will occur unless this is done. Changelog: FAQ - Common Questions and Solutions to Common Problems What does this mod do that stock KSP doesn't? Stock KSP calculates drag as a linear combination of the drag properties of a vehicle's parts, with some interaction changes to handle some of the most obvious aerodynamic interaction effects. FAR instead calculates the drag from the vessel shape as a whole, resulting in a more realistic model of aerodynamic drag and body lift. In addition, FAR accounts for wing shape, rather than just overall area like stock KSP. Finally, thanks to the overall vessel model, FAR can account for things like area ruling, where the vehicle's area cross-section must vary properly in order to fly at supersonic speeds (well, without MOAR BOOSTERS, in any case). I don't like my rocket coming apart under heavy aerodynamic loads; how can I turn it off? In the Space Center scene FAR has a debug menu that can be accessed to mess with a large number of the parameters. Under the "cheats" section of the first tab there is an option to disable aerodynamic failure. Does this plugin work properly with other mods / part packs? Sure; FAR figures out what the properties of the part should be based on its dimensions and some basic aerodynamic assumptions. If you use a mod and suspect that it causes unrealistic behavior, search the thread to see if it has been brought up / addressed by the latest release; if it hasn't, feel free to bring it to my attention. The only exception is with wing parts, which are more complicated and currently must have their properties specified manually. Does this plugin make payload fairings and cargo bays work properly? Yes, it will support any and all fairings and cargo bays. Even those that you make out of completely unrelated parts, so long as you close up the shape. In fact, to FAR, there is little difference between the inside of a closed fairing and the inside of a fuel tank part; they're both just as internal to it. I can't seem to turn off the Flight Assistance Systems... what's going on? In the Flight Assistance GUI every button that is pressed activates a control system; when none are pushed down no control systems are active. I suspect that you've actually created a poorly designed craft and that you're attributing aerodynamic forces that you're not used to dealing with to non-existent control inputs. Do I need ModuleManager and/or ModularFlightIntegrator? Yes; they are used to properly apply aerodynamic properties to stock wing parts and to interface properly with the game's physics system. Not using them will cause FAR to not function. I'm using the win64 KSP build and I am still too outraged to read the topic title or changelog, please mock me. Very well, I shall. Haha, silly person. Anyway, win64 is now unlocked for the foreseeable future. If it turns back into the crashtastic support-heavy nightmare it was, the lock may return, but I do not anticipate the need to do that.

I’ve been messing around with trying to piggy back satellites to orbit with a mk2 SSTO. (Think how the SR-71 carried the drone, except the plane gets to orbit before launching the payload) But it seems putting even a small mk1 size space craft on the back causes some ridiculous drag. I built the launcher plane first and it blasts through 440 m/s without breaking a sweat. But with the mk1 craft piggy backed on, it struggles to hit 300 m/s. I know cargo bays have been thought to be an issue but I have none on either craft.

Today I wanted to try aerodynamics. I ran into a lots of issue. The first one is that the shape of the airplane does not seem to influence the ability of the airplane to break the sound barrier. As can be seen from the image below the airplane fly in low atmosphere at Mach 2.6, without any shape optimization. Either the aerodynamics does not simulate the shock wave drag and its relation with area rules or the thrust of this motor is way too high! Second issue I had is about trimming. As can be observed in the screenshot below, the airplane is gliding at around 250 m/s, with all control surface at 30° deflection to increase lift and pitching moment. It is generating around 170kN of lift force and weight about 40kN. Even with a lift that is enough to fly a 4G maneuver, the airplane can almost not pitch up. When the engine is running it is perfectly trimmed at those speed but without engine it is flying like a stone. All of the above is extremely counter intuitive and seem very unrealistic. I suppose some more work is urgently needed in the aerodynamic simulation section.

so, i bought ksp about a month or two ago, i played around 10 hours and i have not been really successful, all my attempts at building a plane so far have failed, mostly because none of my planes are able to turn and about half of them aren't even able to keep flying for very long and really struggle at gaining lift, whenever i try to turn with my planes they mostly just turn sideways and crash in the water shortly after, i have absolutely no idea what the hell i'm even doing tbh also, sometimes my plane starts to wobble a lot just as i go to the runway here's some footage of my current design

Realistic aerodynamics is not only an essential topic for aerospace engineering, it is absolutely FASCINATING. I wanted to break the sound barrier with the Farrem Aerospace mod and the Realistic Progression mod tech tree. This led me to spend a whole 2 days researching aerodynamics, including watching the old Shell Oil film "High Speed Flight," which explained all the considerations of transonic and supersonic flight. This included elevator issues, thin wings, the area rule, sweeping wings behind the shock wave so they experience subsonic flow, etc. I spent 2 days excitedly researching, but I had also taken both incompressible and compressible flow courses. Think of all the fun I would have had if I were to discover those aerodynamic principles for the first time! If the developers want to make a game marketed as being a fun way to educate the next generation of engineers and scientists, they should go all the way and implement realistic aerodynamics so players can try to break the sound barrier and optimize the aerodynamic profile of their spaceplane for supersonic flight. Procedural nozzles could even be added just to experiment with optimizing engine efficiency for different atmospheric pressures (future update?). Make the game the ultimate sandbox of aerospace engineering! (The same goes for including realistic n-body gravitation like in the principia mod! But while it can and should be implemented I know it probably won't be...)

Make hitting the ground a challenge A runway is a death trap designed to kill pilots who do not understand the concept of Ground Effect, a phenomenon created by communists to allow ships to fly with tiny wings. This simple mod adds Ground Effect to the stock aerodynamics, by applying extra forces over existing wings. It allows ground effect vehicles (GEV) to work properly. Features Increased lift over terrain and ocean Reduction in Induced Drag Up to 200% more lift at closest proximity Custom Lift multiplier can be set per-part config Ground effect scales based on an approximation of wing span Some GEV designs can stay stable without SAS No significant performance loss Works on stock rotors Installation No dependencies, and works on almost every KSP version, just put it anywhere in GameData (yes it's just a single DLL). CKAN and Spacedock links coming soon? [Latest Github Release] Is it working? Check the developer console, and it should say "CraftName has entered Ground Effect." Notes Wing span is roughly calculated by getting the largest value of a lifting surface's distance from the COM, scaled by how perpendicular the wing's position is with it's velocity. It's pretty complicated to understand, it's better explained in the source, but I put this in because it allows rotating vessels to work, such as non-DLC stock propellers. This mechanic can be abused for very slow aircraft There may be a few problems with Breaking Ground rotors, or any mod that has moving parts on the same vessel, as wing span calculations are done per-vessel. Tested to work with the following aerodynamics-related mods: Procedural Wings Bulleted List Extender Continued May unknowingly clash with other installed mods. No FAR compatibility planned; I was working on it for a while but it was really messy, and why make an aerodynamics mod for an aerodynamics mod? Development Thread Media

Update to version 0.15.9.1 "Liepmann", now with voxel-model based aerodynamics! ALL USERS: NO LOGS OR REPRODUCTION STEPS = NO SUPPORT CKAN USERS: PLEASE READ THIS FIRST Users who put issues on Github are awesome. Please consider being awesome. Original Review: Aerodynamic Failures: Building a spaceplane and talking about editor GUI stuff: Features Shape-Based, Vessel-Centered, Aerodynamics - Long, thin shapes drag less than wide, flat shapes, and smooth changes in body width reduce drag. The shape of the vessel as a whole, not individual parts, controls drag, so shape the vessel as you see fit. Emergent Fairings and Cargo Bays - The voxel model method FAR uses allows for the actual shape of the vehicle to play a role in how lift and drag are applied. Build a hollow shell, and close it up, and everything inside it will be protected from the airflow as it should. Wing Effects - Realistically adjusts lift based on wing position and configuration: wingtips lift less and drag more than wing roots. Stall - Passing the critical angle of attack suddenly reduces lift and greatly increases drag. Can put planes into tailspins, flat spins, and cause crashes. Mach Effects and Area Ruling - Lift and drag will vary as expected with Mach number. Supersonic planes will need to properly area rule themselves for optimum flight characteristics. Body lift - All parts lift: a fast enough brick will fly, if not that well. Download: Get v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" from SpaceDock! Get v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" from Github! Official FAR Craft Sharing Thread Post your crafts there, not here, please. Violators will have their posts moved by moderators, and will have everyone very annoyed with the additional workload for both moderators and me. The FAR wiki at GitHub The source at GitHub Shader and art assets licensed All Rights Reserved Source code and binaries licensed under GNU GPL v3 Part.cfg changes powered by sarbian & ialdabaoth's ModuleManager plugin. Interface with stock heating system and other mods interacting with the physics system powered by sarbian, Starwaster and myself's ModularFlightIntegrator Toolbar powered by blizzy78's Toolbar plugin. Installation: Copy the GameData and Ships folders into the KSP root directory and merge them with the existing GameData and Ships folders. Make sure that you copy over everything in the GameData folder. Serious issues will occur unless this is done. Changelog: FAQ - Common Questions and Solutions to Common Problems What does this mod do that stock KSP doesn't? Stock KSP calculates drag as a linear combination of the drag properties of a vehicle's parts, with some interaction changes to handle some of the most obvious aerodynamic interaction effects. FAR instead calculates the drag from the vessel shape as a whole, resulting in a more realistic model of aerodynamic drag and body lift. In addition, FAR accounts for wing shape, rather than just overall area like stock KSP. Finally, thanks to the overall vessel model, FAR can account for things like area ruling, where the vehicle's area cross-section must vary properly in order to fly at supersonic speeds (well, without MOAR BOOSTERS, in any case). I don't like my rocket coming apart under heavy aerodynamic loads; how can I turn it off? In the Space Center scene FAR has a debug menu that can be accessed to mess with a large number of the parameters. Under the "cheats" section of the first tab there is an option to disable aerodynamic failure. Does this plugin work properly with other mods / part packs? Sure; FAR figures out what the properties of the part should be based on its dimensions and some basic aerodynamic assumptions. If you use a mod and suspect that it causes unrealistic behavior, search the thread to see if it has been brought up / addressed by the latest release; if it hasn't, feel free to bring it to my attention. The only exception is with wing parts, which are more complicated and currently must have their properties specified manually. Does this plugin make payload fairings and cargo bays work properly? Yes, it will support any and all fairings and cargo bays. Even those that you make out of completely unrelated parts, so long as you close up the shape. In fact, to FAR, there is little difference between the inside of a closed fairing and the inside of a fuel tank part; they're both just as internal to it. I can't seem to turn off the Flight Assistance Systems... what's going on? In the Flight Assistance GUI every button that is pressed activates a control system; when none are pushed down no control systems are active. I suspect that you've actually created a poorly designed craft and that you're attributing aerodynamic forces that you're not used to dealing with to non-existent control inputs. Do I need ModuleManager and/or ModularFlightIntegrator? Yes; they are used to properly apply aerodynamic properties to stock wing parts and to interface properly with the game's physics system. Not using them will cause FAR to not function. I'm using the win64 KSP build and I am still too outraged to read the topic title or changelog, please mock me. Very well, I shall. Haha, silly person. Anyway, win64 is now unlocked for the foreseeable future. If it turns back into the crashtastic support-heavy nightmare it was, the lock may return, but I do not anticipate the need to do that.

Release Thread This is a very simple mod that increases the lift of a lifting surface at close proximity to ocean, terrain, or buildings. It makes it a little harder to hit the ground. Though far from realistic, it allows ground effect vehicles to function nicely. Drag isn't decreased, but at least it considers wingspan. All of these are old: Ekranoplan of course: https://gfycat.com/TenderIllHedgehog Floatiness over the runway: https://gfycat.com/slowordinaryamericancreamdraft Test of old version: https://gfycat.com/HoarseFixedGroundbeetle Requires Module manager Tested to work on almost all versions above 1.3.1 Github Releases First post, I've just been looking around the forums for some help, though you might recognize me from the /r/kerbalspaceprogram discord server. I'm not really sure if I'm doing things properly. Plenty of testing, cleaning, and a few tweaks is needed for this mod to be considered complete. I also have a mod that creates particles on separations, and one that ejects kerbals when the cabin explodes. This was the only mod that seemed successful.

So I have been trying to model the physics in KSP for a while, using kRPC. I am trying to compute the air drag acting on my rocket so I can compute the trajectory. The kRPC states that the dynamic pressure is a measure of the strength of the aerodynamic forces (link) and the formula is 0.5 * air density * velocity2. Now the KSP wiki states that the atmospheric drag follows the same fomula with an extra constant (coefficient of drag * cross-sectional area). Hence I assumed that when I fly my rocker straight up, where the aerodynamic forces is basicly air drag downwards (numericly checked), the dynamic pressure would be linear to the aerodynamic force. But the experiment shows the other way, as the following figure depicts, where Q is the dynamic pressure. So aerodynamic force is firstly near linear with repect to Q, then as Q hits 40000, is negatively linear and then follows this strange curve. After max Q, it's near linear again. Dynamic pressure data is acquired by vessel.flight().dynamic_pressure, while aerodynamic force data is acquired by norm(vessel.flight().aerodynamic_force). Can anyone share what is the relationship between dynamic pressure and aerodynamic force?

I am always wondering how aerodynamics is being calculated in KSP? For example, I want to know how does the game calculate the force produced by the wing(s) while flying in a specific speed. Any equations (as detailed as can be) will be appreciated.

I created an SSTO to take to different planets on my Space Station. It worked perfectly without the ducted fans. With 1.9, I decided to try them to save fuel and weight. Now, every time it is airborne, it slowly twists to the left. I keep SAS on, but it does not help. All parts were applied in mirror fashion by the system. From what I can tell, my center of gravity is slightly ahead of the center of lift, just like it should be. Both are going down the center of vessel. After displaying my aero forces, the root of the problem is in the cargo, from what I can tell. It seems that the cargo is now generating aero forces while enclosed in a MK3 cargo bay. Does anyone know of a way to fix this? Below is the .craft file for the SSTO in question. I don't have an image account, sorry. Science Rover SSTO

as the wiki page states you need to have a understanding of the forces at play to get the most out of your turboprop i want to use the kal-1000 to dynamically change my angle of attack relative to my air speed but cant find a way to do so. alternatives are welcome because i cant find any way to change the attack angle passively that would be effective.

To whoever may have experience with this kind of problem. I have recently encountered a problem in the 1.8.x versions of KSP in which a Mk3 spaceplane (stock + mk3 expansion) was struggling to break 300m/s with 11 tonnes stowed. When in previous 1.7.x versions the craft had little issue with a 40 tonne to orbit payload. This took some time to uncover as to why the plane lost so much performance over the update and it turns out that the stock mk3 cargo bay parts are no longer shielding any contained parts from aero forces during flight regardless of open or closed state. Because this is a problem with broken stock parts I already contacted KSP support without thinking about how fundamentally even basic mods can change the functionality of the entire game. I still have yet to determine if this is a stock or a modded issue. What could possibly cause stock aero shells to not perform their intended function? It is hard to depict just how much drag is coming from within the craft where it should not. So you may have to take my word for it when I say that the longest drag indicator is coming from a clamp-o-tron Sr just inside the MK3 tail section which is on the front of this aircraft body.

I saw in yt that ppl can make free-shape wings as they like (in the past version). Is there still a function like this stayed in ksp, or again add-ons?

I have encountered a bit of a problem while designing how the re-entry of a large rocket will work. I have a 3-2 converter at the top of my rocket under my command pod. It would be the heaviest thing on the rocket with a mass of almost 17 tons while full. During reentry, the rocket would almost certainly flip and burn up. Question: Is there any way to drain all of the fuel off of a tank without accelerating or moving? If I could, it would reduce the weight to just under 2 tons which should be easily manageable.

Hey, guys. This is my first post here but I have a question which I am hoping someone could answer for me. There is a certain common feature lots of the Russian rockets have like the Long March versions and the Falcon Heavy from SpaceX where the head of the rocket has a bigger diameter than the middle and then the end of the rocket has a diameter similar to the head. So the rocket has a thinner part in the middle. Is there any aerodynamic reason for this or is it simply to use up less material? I have no idea about rocket shapes and have every little experience with stuff like this but it would be great if someone could shed some light on this for me.

Hi there, I'm an aerodynamics student and am looking to do the same kind of medium-fidelity aero modelling that's done with Ferram Aerospace - the calculation of aerodynamic coefficients, stability derivatives, and the like for some arbitrary body, and as functions of Mach number, AoA, etc. Does anyone know if the developers compiled a bibliography/list of references/papers for the algorithms they implemented? If not, is there any information on how their algorithms work, or could anyone recommend some papers I can look at to get started? (I'm familiar with basic flight dynamics theory already, and am more interested in the actual computational component.) Thanks!

Hi all, Does anyone know how KSP computes aerodynamic heating on vehicles in the atmosphere of a body? I've found some basic relationships on aerodynamic heating in this chart package (slides 17-19), but I'd like to find out what KSP does and uses. Does anyone have any insight? Thanks!

I would like this discussion to be a place to share personal interests related to KSP. Aerodynamics, rocket science, physics, chemistry, etc. People can ask questions about real life topics they're interested in and learn about things others are interested in.

So I recently decided to make a larger plane than I normally do. But whenever I make turns or pitch it goes forcefully then goes back down. I've noticed it happens around 100 m/s. I's Guessing it is drag because I learned that with my rockets. Please excuse this horrible question I have very basic knowledge on aerodynamics let alone in KSP.

So I wanted to use one of my premade planes but now when I try to fly them, they just spin out and go wild. Also I do use cheats in my science save cause why not. Though I only use Unbreakable Joints, No crash damage, Inf Electricity and Inf Propellant. I have accidentally click on the physics tab but went back. So I don't think I changed the aerodynamics myself as they worked the last time I play KSP. Was there a change I wasn't aware about? Also running 1.4.1

I'm making some really big truss segments, but the procedural drag cube treats each part like it's clad in plastic. When falling through the atmosphere, it basically drifts down like a feather. I could just make the parts super heavy, but they're supposed to be made of lightweight materials. Anyone had a similar problem in the past? I could use the help

Good day! We are looking for the best aerodynamic model, in passing figuring out the properties and characteristics of certain parts in KSP 1.2.1. Finding the golden mean between minimalistic craft and one large fairing is a very important aspect of the game. At this time, I've written a series of video experiments for you to see firsthand the effectiveness of different models. These five KSPeriments relate to Kerbin. How to make the perfect craft? Let's find out! I'm going to regularly update this thread with new videos. But, sure, you can always see new experiments there: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTc4sm01Q9olAZW008Kn5i63YrURAoCzB This is my KSPeriments playlist. Feel free to comment and ask anything. English is not my native language, but I'm sure I can explain all that's required. Thanks for watching! :3

KSP Version: 1.3.1.1891 (Windows 7 x64), fresh install, fresh sandbox savegame. I keep this particular KSP install for such testing only. Mods / Add-Ons: All Stock Description: if there is a long enough part inside a cargohold that consists of two shorter ones, then drag is applied to the payload. (I think its because the game thinks that payload part is clipping through the cargobay. Although visually it is only clipping through its front or its back as it is longer than the cargobay.) I also think the problem is known. But I'm not sure. Also I'd like to know if it's gonna be fixed or not. The reason I'm reporting this is because there are many modded parts that are longer than the longest cargobay available. Fuel tanks for example. It also limits how one should attach their payload inside cargobays. UPD: not every part bugs. Incomplete list of parts which I've tested (yes = causes the bug): - FL-T800 Fuel Tank: yes - Modular Girder Segment XL: no - M-Beam 200 I-Beam: no - Mk1 Cockpit: yes - Orange Tank: yes - RT-10 Hammer Solid Fuel Booster: yes (omg i've ignited it inside my cargobay.. omg.. oh nevermind it didnt explode) As a lil' bonus I've also tested the situation when a small part is placed between two cargobays. It didn't bug at all (tested with 2x FL-T200 Fuel Tank). Steps to Replicate: 1) Create a plane with two connected short cargobays so they make a longer one together. 2) Put a long enough part inside - its length must be longer than one of the short cargobays. Example: two connected Mk3 Cargo Bays CRG-50 and an Orange Tank inside. 3) Attach additional parts like a Cockpit, landing gears and an engine (if the payload isnt a fuel tank - then attach a fuel tank too of course). 4) Launch the craft. 5) Make aero forces visible in parts' gui menu through the debug menu. 6) Open the payload right-click menu. 7) Accelerate and watch its drag. Result: The payload's drag isn't zero although it must be as it is fully enclosed. Fixes/Workarounds: - attach the payload differently (if there are multiple crafts or parts as a payload); - use different nodes; - use the largest cargobay available; - don't put larger parts inside Other Notes/Pictures/Log Files: Both Mk3 and Mk2 cargobays have this problem. I believe its an internal technical logic problem, not a bug. Its just how the game calculates drag. But still it is a problem. Craft files: Mk2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kk4h6y8h4alamx0/Bugged Mk2.craft?dl=0 Mk3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fe4zaluf436nniq/Bugged Mk3.craft?dl=0 Screenshots (the right part-menu reflects the payload on both screenshots): Thank you Squad for making one of the best games! No sarcasm involved. Bugs happen. (I believe there is no need to include logfiles. Will attach if Im wrong.)

An audible sonic boom when a part surpasses the sound barrier would be a nice touch. It would add a bit more realism and satisfaction.