Is this cheating?

[davidpsummers]

For those of use who care about such things...

I have a probe in orbit around Laythe. It has an ion power booster (to get it to Laythe and back) and a ordinary lander that I want to be able to land (on land) and get back up to orbit. In order land on the "land", I've decided I can have a better shot in an inclined orbit. Now the ion engine just doesn't have enough thrust to do this in one pass (or even a few).

Now if this were "really real", mission control could put someone low on the totem pole to sit and thrust a bit every time the probe is in the right part of the orbit. Over hundreds of passes, it should work. OTOH, I'm not willing to sit there and to that. So I'm thinking of turning on the infinite fuel cheat and doing it in one pass as a "game short cut". What do people think? Cheating?

[Red Iron Crown]

If it doesn't bother you, it's not cheating. If you feel guilty doing it, it is cheating.

[Laie]

If it helps to avoid your dilemma: whatever your current inclination, there will be a pretty land mass coming your way. Just fast-forward a few Laythe days to get your bearings.

[Renegrade]

It's always cheating, no exceptions. But that's a meaningless question. The real question is, is it causing harm? In a singleplayer game, unrelated to challenges etc, I'd say it's not harming others.. so then the only question remains: is it harming you? That's a tricky question. By bypassing this problem, you may miss out on important lessons, or interesting scenarios/sights/events, or such. By not bypassing it, you might be exposed to massive boredom, etc...

So look deep inside your soul, and tell yourself... "I should have put more batteries/engines on it".

(one lesson to be possibly learned is that you can do inclination changes on BOTH sides of the orbit~)

[Xavven]

It will take you less time (and delta-v for that matter) if you raise your apoapsis first and make your plane change there. Also don't forget alt + . to increase physics time warp. Just be careful you don't break your craft from physics warp (save first!)

As to your question, you said, "so I'm thinking of turning on the infinite fuel cheat..." (emphasis own). Well hey, there's a word in there that might hint as to whether it's a cheat or not.

[LordFerret]

It's always cheating, no exceptions. But that's a meaningless question. The real question is, is it causing harm? In a singleplayer game, unrelated to challenges etc, I'd say it's not harming others.. so then the only question remains: is it harming you? That's a tricky question. By bypassing this problem, you may miss out on important lessons, or interesting scenarios/sights/events, or such. By not bypassing it, you might be exposed to massive boredom, etc...

So look deep inside your soul, and tell yourself... "I should have put more batteries/engines on it".

(one lesson to be possibly learned is that you can do inclination changes on BOTH sides of the orbit~)

Been there, done THAT ^

...cuts the boredom in half.

[lextacy]

honestly it would be technically cheating , if you ramp up the engine however in the config since the engines are nerfed badly thats a dofferent story. Also it wouldnt be cheating if bugs in the game screw with your mission. I just had a situation last night where the game deleted an orbitally inserted Bio platform around Duna , for no reason! So I just whipped it up on the launch pad again and hyper edited it where I was suppose to be. Good ol rails system. If the game cheats you , you have that right.

[Skorpychan]

honestly it would be technically cheating , if you ramp up the engine however in the config since the engines are nerfed badly thats a dofferent story. Also it wouldnt be cheating if bugs in the game screw with your mission. I just had a situation last night where the game deleted an orbitally inserted Bio platform around Duna , for no reason! So I just whipped it up on the launch pad again and hyper edited it where I was suppose to be. Good ol rails system. If the game cheats you , you have that right.

Deleted for no reason?

I think it was more 'being acquired by Ike's SOI and slamming into it'. I've lost stations that way.

[eddiew]

In a 'really real' mission, you'd have had a team of people double checking your plans, and if there was a significant problem one of them would have mentioned it. NASA/ESA spend weeks/months/years deciding on orbits and landing targets.

Since it was just you making a decision in the moment, I personally wouldn't feel bad about tweaking things a little, now that you've had time to think

[Semmel]

I would just go ahead with what you have got and try to land without an inclination change. Real missions fail for a huge veriatey of reasons. Bad mission planing is usually not the most common but it happens. Just bite the bullet and go ahead, its much more fun like that (at least to me).

[pincushionman]

As Xavven said, it'll be less trouble to raise your apoapsis (which you may or may not be able to do with fewer burn passes), do the plane change at apoapsis of your now more-elliptical orbit), then drop your apoapsis back down where you want it.

If your target periapsis is low enough, you could even aerobrake to help during the last step, but that would need another step to raise your periapsis out of the atmospere.

And IRL, an ion maeuver would be planned as continuous burns, which we don't have good tools to evaluate in-game.

[lextacy]

Deleted for no reason?

I think it was more 'being acquired by Ike's SOI and slamming into it'. I've lost stations that way.

I nver thought of that happening on rails, maybe thats really whats going on. I also had a Jool satellite thrown off into an escape trajectory out of the Sol. I think my Ap was a bit too high and clipped into Laythe's SOI. Your suggestion is very very plausible, but scary at the same time.

[maltesh]

For those of use who care about such things...

I have a probe in orbit around Laythe. It has an ion power booster (to get it to Laythe and back) and a ordinary lander that I want to be able to land (on land) and get back up to orbit. In order land on the "land", I've decided I can have a better shot in an inclined orbit. Now the ion engine just doesn't have enough thrust to do this in one pass (or even a few).

Now if this were "really real", mission control could put someone low on the totem pole to sit and thrust a bit every time the probe is in the right part of the orbit. Over hundreds of passes, it should work. OTOH, I'm not willing to sit there and to that. So I'm thinking of turning on the infinite fuel cheat and doing it in one pass as a "game short cut". What do people think? Cheating?

Infinite fuel isn't going to change the amount of thrust your ion drive puts out.

[Starwhip]

Infinite fuel isn't going to change the amount of thrust your ion drive puts out.

Yeah, what are you talking about?

"Hack Gravity" be the one you want.

Anyhow, if it feels wrong, it's cheating. If it's fine with you, it's called "Taking advantage of what's made available" XD

[Tank Buddy]

There is no such thing as cheating in a non-competitive single player game.

[Xavven]

There is no such thing as cheating in a non-competitive single player game.

Yeah there is. Have you ever beat BattleToads? With or without cheats? Makes a difference.

[Renegrade]

Infinite fuel isn't going to change the amount of thrust your ion drive puts out.

That depends - is it a spam panels design, or a more realistic battery/panel hybrid? In the latter case, infinite fuel will let you run the engine at full power all the time. (Ditto for jets, amusingly enough. Putting the SPACE in spaceplane)

There is no such thing as cheating in a non-competitive single player game.

Cheating is always cheating, regardless of circumstance. It's circumventing the rules of a game to gain advantage, and even in single player, there are rules. The only valid counter-argument is 'it does no harm'. Which can be true or not true, depending on the circumstances (you could very well harm your own enjoyment, education or experience. I know I've learned a great deal through not-cheating that I wouldn't have figured out if I just hit the debug menu or hyperedit every time a problem of my own creation cropped up).

Also, if you come here and post - and it's not purely single player anymore, is it? Or non-competitive.

(Also..what tab is the option in question found under?)

[Red Iron Crown]

(Also..what tab is the option in question found under?)

I see what you did there.

[John FX]

If you ALT-F12 then that opens the cheat menu. Using them could be defined as cheating. You'll have to decide for yourself.

Myself I would just let Mechjeb put the craft to a highly elliptical orbit where you would have more time at Apoapsis to perform an inclination change with a low TWR (and reduced Dv costs too)

As it is laythe you can then aerobrake back down to a more reasonable orbit for landing.

[Skorpychan]

I nver thought of that happening on rails, maybe thats really whats going on. I also had a Jool satellite thrown off into an escape trajectory out of the Sol. I think my Ap was a bit too high and clipped into Laythe's SOI. Your suggestion is very very plausible, but scary at the same time.

It does happen, and I've seen it happen. Orbit orbit wham. Quickloaded, tried it again, noticed the Ike encounter. That took me right into the body.

[strongest_2hu]

Infinite fuel isn't going to change the amount of thrust your ion drive puts out.

Did you actually read what you quoted? I guarantee he's not planning to land and return with an ion engine.

[MGCJerry]

I use the cheat menu for several things, and stuff like this is one of them. For me playing with an ion engine to do multi-hour burns and waiting DAYS for the next maneuver is not my idea of fun. Sure, timewarp works but if you have other stuff going on too, you may miss a window or a node, and then more waiting. FUN!!! IMO, this is not cheating if your craft is capable of the maneuver dV wise but the time is prohibitive if you have other missions waiting on a node or a launch window. I think if it as cheating if you're out fuel, didn't pack enough battery or due to a technical design flaw. I'd also consider it cheating if this was done during a "serious career" save.

Your mileage, kilometer or delta V may vary, but that's how I see it.

[maltesh]

Did you actually read what you quoted? I guarantee he's not planning to land and return with an ion engine.

I have a probe in orbit around Laythe. It has an ion power booster (to get it to Laythe and back) and a ordinary lander that I want to be able to land (on land) and get back up to orbit. In order land on the "land", I've decided I can have a better shot in an inclined orbit. Now the ion engine just doesn't have enough thrust to do this in one pass (or even a few).

"Now the ion engine just doesn't have enough thrust to [perform the plane change] in one pass (or even a few). " If the problem is truly "insufficient thrust to make the plane change in one pass," I stand by the statement. Infinite fuel isn't going to allow him to make the plane change in one pass, as the thrust will be, at best, the same as if he had not used infinite fuel.

[davidpsummers]

"Infinite fuel isn't going to change the amount of thrust your ion drive puts out."

No, but it will let me use the lander's chemical rocket....

- - - Updated - - -

There is no such thing as cheating in a non-competitive single player game.

Some people (myself included) don't like "cheats". As I said in the opening, this is for those who care about such things.

[maltesh]

Ah, fair enough. I was assuming chutes for some reason. Can't imagine why. Objection withdrawn; you may continue beating the witness.