Escape Tower jettison after use

[Sampa]

Hey, I really like the fact that the ejection tower was added to the game. Would it be possible for a function to be added into the staging tree to set the rockets to eject the tower and not the capsule? it would make designs a lot easier for getting rid of it instead of using to docking ports!

[Whirligig Girl]

You can actually, it's called Acton Group, and you can press backspace to abort.

EDIT: Sorry, misunderstood. sorry. Just use decouplers and you can stage them.

[Sampa]

true, but it would be a lot easier for the new players if, when you attach the towers, if there was an addition made for its self ejection (detaches from crew capsule and fires its engines) in the stage branch so the person could select where/when they wanted to get rid of it. Similar in function to the FASA escape towers

[sumghai]

[MOD - I've renamed the thread title for clarity, since the correct term is "Escape Tower" or "Launch Escape System"]

[Kibble]

I agree! LAS systems are very misrepresented in the game, on the verge of being useless. No jettison motors, it doesn't fire for long enough, no steering capability, and in the event of a pad abort it doesn't pull the astronauts high enough for effective parachute deployment.

[Whirligig Girl]

I agree! LAS systems are very misrepresented in the game, on the verge of being useless. No jettison motors, it doesn't fire for long enough, no steering capability, and in the event of a pad abort it doesn't pull the astronauts high enough for effective parachute deployment.

I wonder if they were trying to keep it from being OP. Like you'd need to be afraid of that for such a specialized rocket. Heck, maybe LES really are OP, but the real world is just too sane to use them on launch vehicles.

Make the LES longer burning, use solid-fuel powered RCS jets (Not sure if that's realistic but it would be really funny), guidance fins, and all the good stuff.

[Sampa]

[MOD - I've renamed the thread title for clarity, since the correct term is "Escape Tower" or "Launch Escape System"]

Thanks, sumghai!

[sumghai]

I agree! LAS systems are very misrepresented in the game, on the verge of being useless. No jettison motors, it doesn't fire for long enough, no steering capability, and in the event of a pad abort it doesn't pull the astronauts high enough for effective parachute deployment.

I wonder if they were trying to keep it from being OP. Like you'd need to be afraid of that for such a specialized rocket. Heck, maybe LES really are OP, but the real world is just too sane to use them on launch vehicles.

Make the LES longer burning, use solid-fuel powered RCS jets (Not sure if that's realistic but it would be really funny), guidance fins, and all the good stuff.

I definitely agree that the burn duration on the stock LES should be increased to make pad aborts viable in-game.

Also, GregroxMun's comment on solid fuel powered RCS jets isn't so far-fetched after all:

- The Apollo LES had three solid rocket motors - the main Launch Escape Motor, the Pitch Control Motor and the jettison motor; the PCM fires once and continuously to pitch the capsule towards the Atlantic Ocean during a pad or low-altitude abort, and cannot be controlled.

- The Orion/SLS Launch Abort System has a similar setup; however, the PCM is in this case called the Attitude Control Motor, and consists of eight independently-throttleable valve nozzles fed by a single solid fuel slug (throttling the valves allows the ACM to steer the capsule/LAS stack in any desired direction during abort)

it would be a lot easier for the new players if, when you attach the towers, if there was an addition made for its self ejection (detaches from crew capsule and fires its engines) in the stage branch so the person could select where/when they wanted to get rid of it. Similar in function to the FASA escape towers

Based on my examination of the stock and the FASA escape towers:

- The stock LES is essentially a solid fuel rocket booster, which is fired by staging

- The FASA LES combines the solid fuel rocket booster with a built-in decoupler; the booster has to be fired manually by Action Groups, while the decoupler is fired by staging

If I understand you correctly, Sampa, you want a LES with a booster and a decoupler in the same part, but both activated by staging at different times, right?

[Sampa]

pretty much, right! You'll have to forgive me if I am a little too vague...I have a slight problem with getting my point across effectively (I know what I am wanting from it, but can get that across very well)

I'm ok with setting up the abort system to pry the capsule off the rocket in emergency in the action groups...I am NOT ok with the fact that there is no built in decoupler to get rid of the tower either after use or when there is no longer a need for it to be on (rocket too high for the parachutes to be effective)

[sumghai]

Okay, now that I've clarified your request...

...I'm afraid to tell you that (based on my understanding) it is not possible for the same part to have two or more staging icons.

SQUAD could copy what FASA did by having the escape motor only triggerable via action groups only (and reserve staging for the decoupler jettison), but that would be not to intuitive for new users, since they would expect any engine to be triggered through staging.

[Sampa]

Okay, now that I've clarified your request...

...I'm afraid to tell you that (based on my understanding) it is not possible for the same part to have two or more staging icons.

SQUAD could copy what FASA did by having the escape motor only triggerable via action groups only (and reserve staging for the decoupler jettison), but that would be not to intuitive for new users, since they would expect any engine to be triggered through staging.

Might I argue that this is almost a silly reason? You already have to use the action groups in order to create an abort sequence! So why can't we just have the something in the normal staging to reflect that we no longer want the tower on our capsule and be jettisoned?

[Nitrous Oxide]

Okay, now that I've clarified your request...

...I'm afraid to tell you that (based on my understanding) it is not possible for the same part to have two or more staging icons.

SQUAD could copy what FASA did by having the escape motor only triggerable via action groups only (and reserve staging for the decoupler jettison), but that would be not to intuitive for new users, since they would expect any engine to be triggered through staging.

Except how do you stage an emergency stage? It's completely dependant on when/if your rocket breaks... it makes more sense to do it FASA's way imho... could also include a tutorial to introduce new users to action groups (seriously, I played for almost 200 hours without being aware that you could set action groups...). It makes more sense to stage the regular decoupling, and to set an abort action group to actually activate it properly.

[sumghai]

If people feel more comfortable with FASA's method, then it's up to you guys to petition SQUAD to implement it.

I do use the Abort Action Group myself regularly, but I was simply curious as to how newbie users would handle this change.

[Sampa]

If people feel more comfortable with FASA's method, then it's up to you guys to petition SQUAD to implement it.

I do use the Abort Action Group myself regularly, but I was simply curious as to how newbie users would handle this change.

Believe it or not, i taught myself how to use action groups. A newbie should have no trouble learning to use them as well...imo

[Guest]

Integrating a small decoupler into LES is good idea.

More of it:

I think there must be separate "Abort staging configuration" window.

There is a separate staging list, and it's executed automatically, with delays and conditions. To avoid misuse, it should be short (about 10 lines) and non-interruptable. Some commands can be grouped, so about 10 lines is enough)

For example, something like this:

{Group:all engines}->stop;
Decoupler12->fire;
LES0->EngineMain->fire;
WaitUntil(LES0->EngineMain->FuelLevel == 0 );
LES0->Decoupler0->fire;
{Group Drogue0, Drogue1, Drogue2}->fire;  // it's radial drogue chutes, they should be added to stock, existing drogue chute is too cumbersome)
DelaySec(10);
{Group Drogue0, Drogue1, Drogue2}->detach; // they decouple themselves, not only cut ropes
DelaySec(1);
{Group Chute0, Chute1, Chute2}->fire;

Or, at least, LES should have drogue and regular chutes integrated into base, and above-mentioned script integrated into LES.

I know, SQUAD do not like idea of giving players some automation, even if they have to program it themselves.

[CaptRobau]

Glad you liked the FASA method. I actually petitioned to get it like that, way back when FASA first added escape towers and had it set up like Squad does now. It's far more intuitive so I think Squad should also adopt the FASA way too. The abort button/action group is there for that single reason, let's teach players to use it.

[Sampa]

If people feel more comfortable with FASA's method, then it's up to you guys to petition SQUAD to implement it.

I do use the Abort Action Group myself regularly, but I was simply curious as to how newbie users would handle this change.

How do we make an official petition?

[tater]

Yeah, the current LES is entirely useless, I've never actually used it in game for real, I messed with it once for testing, and decided it was pointless.

[Kerbart]

I don't understand this thread. I always include the LES and has saved many Kerbals on various occasions. I wonder how you're using it; the LES has more than enough power to pull a Mk1-2 clear from its rocket and get it at a sufficient height.

Jettisoning it is usually part of ditching the first stage; again, no problem here. I have a suspision that those who claim it's entirely useless don't use it the right way:

• In emergency, fire the LES through the abort command group (by default bound to the backspace key but I'm not going to assume you've kept it like that)
  
• Obviously, you don't want to fire just the LES in an abort event. It makes sense to fire the decoupler under the capsule as well; don't expect the LES to pull a 500 ton rocket into the atmosphere to parachute-deployment height! I also throw in "turn off all engines" for good measure although events that warrant an abort usually mean you've lost control over your rocket in the first place.
  

Of course it's perfectly possible to design some kind of integrated capsule/space craft design that cannot be carried by the humble LES. But ask yourself: would you step in such a vehicle for launch? Especially with the Kerbal design mindset? I design my manned spacecraft specifically for being able to survive launch mishaps. Yes, that can be a considerable design limitation. But not an unreasonable one.

[sumghai]

How do we make an official petition?

The term petition isn't strictly "get a whole bunch of people to sign something" - it can also mean getting people to support a suggestion, as you're doing here.

I don't understand this thread.

The OP knows how to use the LES effectively.

His issue is that he wants an easy way to throw away the LES after use, by having a built-in decoupler just like the FASA LES.

[Sampa]

The term petition isn't strictly "get a whole bunch of people to sign something" - it can also mean getting people to support a suggestion, as you're doing here.

The OP knows how to use the LES effectively.

His issue is that he wants an easy way to throw away the LES after use, by having a built-in decoupler just like the FASA LES.

Ok, thanks

[Homer_S]

Hey,

I figured out how to do what the OP wants with stock parts.

1) Place your capsule with an open magnet (the green ball) on top.

2) Take a small size separator (TR-2C or TR-2V) and flip it upside down, dock that on top to be the tower separator.

3) Take an escape tower and dock that to the escape separator.

4) Place the capsule separator and the escape motor in your abort group.

5) Place the escape motor and tower separator in the staging with the first stage jettison, or other staging.

During an abort: hit the abort button. This fires the motor and separates your capsule. You can then open your parachutes immediately if you are low or once you clear the debris if not.

During a normal launch: hit the stage that activates the escape motor and the escape motor separator. This neatly discards the escape tower.

Fly Safe!

Homer

Edited June 12, 2015 by Homer_S

[sumghai]

Homer_S, the OP (and a number of other users including myself) are not asking for a workaround that we're already familiar with, but a change in the way the current LES part is configured.

[Alshain]

I like the ideas here. We don't need two separate staging icons, just one that decouples and fires the engines (assuming the LES gets a built in decoupler, which it should). The actual Abort actions should stay in the action groups. So only the disposal is staged (if the launch is successful). There is no way you could put the abort actions in staging, that wouldn't be useful anyway and it wouldn't know which decoupler you want to release the pod either.

Basically this would save us an action group and with how limited action groups are that is always a good thing.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Alshain