Devnote Tuesday: Fairing well

[monstah]

Nathan put it in the best (and simplest) way possible.

Regardless of definition, I still don't see why would it be cheating or less fun or anything bad to design your fairing and build it, so... can we either move on or at least be productive about it?

And if we're still gonna call anything we don't like "cheating", could we then at least define "winning at KSP"? I've never seen a Game Over screen, so I don't really know...

[Starwaster]

What the hell are we actually arguing about, again?

Religion.

[John FX]

Which way is 'up'? Who knows.

Stand on a planet and hold a ball. Let it go. The opposite way to the way the ball went is 'up', mostly.

I don't like them that much... They're fine for a game with a bunch of other proc parts, but they don't really fit very well in KSP. It seems like a cheat... And will be abused as one.

Sounds like a good reason to have a bunch of other proc parts then the game will have a more consistent feel.

I'm in favour of that.

Interstage fairings are something we've discussed here to quite an extent. The current system doesn't support them completely at the moment, but it doesn't preclude them either. They're just not accounted for yet, and we're probably going to have to do some playtesting to figure out how (and if) the fairings would work in between two chunks of spacecraft. We might be able to adapt the current module to do both, or we might require a separate module to handle those cases. The short answer is, we're not quite there yet.

Cheers

If they are on the radar and planned then that's good. As long as they can do the same as the interstage fairings on the Saturn V then they can do pretty much anything anyone could want from an interstage.

One small question. Will we be able to surface attach items to fairings? Things like seperatrons, batteries, lights, radial engines and so forth?

EDIT :

Wait, atmospheric conditions or re-entry heat won't affect construction? Oh man, there are going to be a ton of happy players when 1.0 rolls around!

OMG I am SO relieved! There was me, thinking I would have to put my delicate probe parts out of the wind and fit heatshields to stuff. Now I know I can just build pancakes made from cheese and they will be fine re-entering Kerbin from Eeloo.

Edited February 26, 2015 by John FX

[Hcube]

OMG I am SO relieved! There was me, thinking I would have to put my delicate probe parts out of the wind and fit heatshields to stuff. Now I know I can just build pancakes made from cheese and they will be fine re-entering Kerbin from Eeloo.

Wait, If re-entry heating and aerodynamics let you play without using fairings, without putting your delicate probe parts out of the wind and without using heatshields, WHAT WILL THEY DO ? If you can re-enter with a pancake from eeloo, something is wrong.

(unless the re-entry heating effects can be set depending on the difficulty)

[Deddly]

It's official, KSP will have cheese. My life is complete.

[Northstar1989]

SQUAD, why different fairing parts for different diameters? Why not just use a single part that automatically re-sizes to match the fairing base like is done in Procedural Fairings mod?

Also, what about interstage fairings? Are those going to be in? That would be AWESOME!

Regards,

Northstar

[BudgetHedgehog]

Wait, If re-entry heating and aerodynamics let you play without using fairings, without putting your delicate probe parts out of the wind and without using heatshields, WHAT WILL THEY DO ? If you can re-enter with a pancake from eeloo, something is wrong.

(unless the re-entry heating effects can be set depending on the difficulty)

Pretty sure John was joking and playing along with regex's sarcasm.

[basic.syntax]

One small question. Will we be able to surface attach items to fairings? Things like seperatrons, batteries, lights, radial engines and so forth?

Good question. I don't think we should need to. Its supposed to be sheet metal sections, connected by explosive bolts. I think if we are allowed to attach things, it had better be very light stuff, or risk the eggshell cracking open.

[Kibble]

Good question. I don't think we should need to. Its supposed to be sheet metal sections, connected by explosive bolts. I think if we are allowed to attach things, it had better be very light stuff, or risk the eggshell cracking open.

I don't think its a good idea to purposely restrict the player in this case - fairing parts could be used very creatively with surface-attach.

[regex]

Good question. I don't think we should need to. Its supposed to be sheet metal sections, connected by explosive bolts. I think if we are allowed to attach things, it had better be very light stuff, or risk the eggshell cracking open.

Fairings are a bit more substantial than *sheet metal*, though. The Soyuz TMA fairings include grid fins, for example, which would indicate they can handle aerodynamic forces if the spacecraft needs to bail from the carrier rocket via escape tower. Also, check out the X-37B's fairing and the Delta-II's fairing for comparison.

[Dieguscus]

Hello guys. A couple of days ago I was trying to make a replica of the Boeing X37b and since it has some difficult shapes to recreate on the fuselage, I remembered the craft Majorjim made back in the day. He did the main structure (image below) and then covered it up with solar panels. Though the shape was ok, the part count was still elevated (and thus the framerate dropped) so as soon as I read this week's devnotes I came up with an idea: what if, just like this new stock procedural fairings, the devs come up with a solution that let you make procedural fuselages that would count as a single part just like these? As far as I know no mod has attempted this before and could be a game changer. Hope any dev can see this

Edited February 26, 2015 by Dieguscus

[basic.syntax]

fuselages that would count as a single part ...

The UbioZur Welding mod has been recommended as a way to combine parts; it might help you, although it does have various limitations on what can be combined.

[softweir]

Hope any dev can see this

If you want to devs to see this, post it in the Suggestions and Developments Discussion.

[kofeyh]

As far as I know no mod has attempted this before and could be a game changer.

Wrong forum thread to expect a dev to just happen to see one post, amongst hundreds.

Not sure if you've seen how procedural fairings actually work? you can 'lock' the shape them move the fairing and attach to another node (not a fairing base). It will retain the shape. This can allow for (effectively) procedural surface panels. It's not entirely robust, however, and in some cases the fairings can reset. They also aren't super strong.

The UbioZur Welding mod has been recommended as a way to combine parts; it might help you, although it does have various limitations on what can be combined.

Part Welder may or may not work.

But here's the kicker. Procedural parts means less lego, connected to other lego, connected to more mechano, connected to some engines. The reduction in part count can have anything from a positive, to dramatic influence on performance. I don't believe KSP is in danger of losing the building block mechanic, though. That does seem to be a thing, still.

Edited February 27, 2015 by kofeyh

[LABHOUSE]

Proof squad changes their minds and does the exact opposite, they have said before that there will never be any procedural parts, and now we will have procedural fairings.

[Superfluous J]

Proof squad changes their minds and does the exact opposite, they have said before that there will never be any procedural parts, and now we will have procedural fairings.

I'd rather they reassess old "never"s every once in a while and change their minds than hold steadfast to some dogmatic stance that makes the game worse than it could be.

[basic.syntax]

Proof squad changes their minds and does the exact opposite, they have said before that there will never be any procedural parts, and now we will have procedural fairings.

HarvesteR found an interesting middle ground.

Although possible, I didn't want to make fairing construction fully automated. It's much more fun to build it up manually. (link)

[NoMrBond]

Proof squad changes their minds and does the exact opposite, they have said before that there will never be any procedural parts, and now we will have procedural fairings.

I asked Maxmaps about procedural parts during a Squadcast and he was open to the idea for certain parts, even specifically mentioning the structural I-Beam and Girders in his response

Not wanting procedural everything doesn't mean nothing procedural

[kofeyh]

Not wanting procedural everything doesn't mean nothing procedural

No, it means either nothing will be, or everything will be. Right?

It surprises me on occasion how myopic discussions can be, regarding "middle ground" - which is where HarvesteR often seems to end up - but you wouldn't know it from the forums.

[Sandworm]

Procedural parts, rigid connections, autopilots and even resources: Never believe a "never" from squad.

I hope that these fairings aren't a sign of a weak revisit to aerodynamics. From the language it seems that anything inside the fairing will be exempt from drag. That is a good thing, but I hope they also create a proper drag model for non-fairinged parts.

But I know they won't. Any proper drag model would radically reduce the delta-V needed to get to orbit in stock. So if they did improve things they would then have to nerf ISP/mass/thrust/atmo to compensate. Or they could just make kerbin bigger, but they said that would never happen. Oops. See above.

[Daze]

Procedural parts, rigid connections, autopilots and even resources: Never believe a "never" from squad.

I hope that these fairings aren't a sign of a weak revisit to aerodynamics. From the language it seems that anything inside the fairing will be exempt from drag. That is a good thing, but I hope they also create a proper drag model for non-fairinged parts.

But I know they won't. Any proper drag model would radically reduce the delta-V needed to get to orbit in stock. So if they did improve things they would then have to nerf ISP/mass/thrust/atmo to compensate. Or they could just make kerbin bigger, but they said that would never happen. Oops. See above.

Indeed we will nave realistic ISP with reduction of thrust in low atmosphere

[CptRichardson]

Procedural parts, rigid connections, autopilots and even resources: Never believe a "never" from squad.

I hope that these fairings aren't a sign of a weak revisit to aerodynamics. From the language it seems that anything inside the fairing will be exempt from drag. That is a good thing, but I hope they also create a proper drag model for non-fairinged parts.

But I know they won't. Any proper drag model would radically reduce the delta-V needed to get to orbit in stock. So if they did improve things they would then have to nerf ISP/mass/thrust/atmo to compensate. Or they could just make kerbin bigger, but they said that would never happen. Oops. See above.

Uh, they ARE revisiting ISP and rebalancing the--everything, really--to correct for the changes in game.

[Sandworm]

Yup, I'm sure they will tweak some ISP and mass settings here and there. But they are moving towards release. They aren't going to make any radical changes, such as pushing all ISPs from the 300s to 200s necessary to 'balance' a realistic drag model for kerbin's atmosphere. Radical changes that would render engine mods obsolete are also probably off the table. They need the mod community on board at release, not weeks later.

Things inside fairings (payloads+engines) are subtracted from drag. That, and a few balance changes, is all I expect. I'll give it a try, but no doubt I'll be installing FAR and some version of RSS as soon as they update.

[Superfluous J]

Yup, I'm sure they will tweak some ISP and mass settings here and there. But they are moving towards release. They aren't going to make any radical changes, such as pushing all ISPs from the 300s to 200s necessary to 'balance' a realistic drag model for kerbin's atmosphere. Radical changes that would render engine mods obsolete are also probably off the table. They need the mod community on board at release, not weeks later.

I don't see how they can totally change the aerodynamics model and NOT break most every single mod that has even tangential relationships to it. Everything from KER and Mehjeb to KAS's pipe fittings will be affected by this. They're already breaking the bone and are ready to set it, may as well shatter that sucker so in the end everything is right.

And while so many on this forum seem to think Squad cannot do anything correctly, I really truly think that using what you see up to now is not valid for predictions of the future. To trot out the same old analogy it's like complaining that there's no wallpaper on a house while they're erecting the frame. And when they show you the wallpaper you indignantly laugh them off with a "Yeah, right. Wallpaper. I'll believe THAT when I see it."

[regex]

And while so many on this forum seem to think Squad cannot do anything correctly, I really truly think that using what you see up to now is not valid for predictions of the future.

FWIW I'm actually pretty excited for the next release, but I do think Squad needs to refactor some old code to make it easier on modders extending it (*cough*ASTEROIDS*cough*). Hopefully Unity 5 will be the point where that is done. Edited February 27, 2015 by regex