[1.1.2] Kerbal Inventory System (KIS) 1.2.12

[Ruedii]

On 7/25/2016 at 2:03 PM, IgorZ said:

As a mentioned above, for the ground attachable things it only considered a bug if the part is from KIS or KAS. Improper definition of attach nodes on the part results in collision, and it's not a KIS bug. Detection of the wrong nodes is technically possible but is too complicated. If you have a reproducible case for KIS/KAS parts then, please, report the bug. For any other part, please, report bugs to the author of that part.

Detection of collision with other parts on the vessel would be a nice feature but for now it's not in the list.

I said DROPPING not attaching.  Nodes aren't used when dropping.

[goldenpsp]

14 minutes ago, Ruedii said:

I said DROPPING not attaching.  Nodes aren't used when dropping.

Exploding parts when dropped isn't a KIS bug.  Go take it up with Squad.

[IgorZ]

1 hour ago, Ruedii said:

I said DROPPING not attaching.  Nodes aren't used when dropping.

They are used. In order to drop anything you need to choose the right height above the ground, this height is calculated via the current attach node position. If node position is outside the part's collider the object will appear above the ground and may crash due to gravity. If node position is inside the part's collider the collision happens. Depending on the gravity force, mass of the part, and the delta the collision the part may: jump, fly away, or explode.

E.g. this is the issue for the stock docking ports: their back node resides inside the part's collider. As a result if you place a docking port on the ground "face " up you'll see it flying away on bodies with low gravity, on Kerbin they will just jump up a bit due to the strong gravity that compensates collision enhancer pull out force. On Minmus tiny and medium ports will explode because the acceleration exceeds part's limit.

[IgorZ]

8 hours ago, ZobrAA said:

What if adapt this method for another resource? Like so:

In order to use this approach any tank you want using this way must implement a KIS module. And it won't work for "dynamic" tanks (those that may change their resource type in the editor). But it's only a half of the problem, another half is pushing fuel/oxidizer into the vessel's tanks. Game has a rather complicated logic on how it's done, and re-implementing it would require a lot of efforts.

For the fuel re-supply it's better to use other approaches. There are modular containers that may be equipped with tanks of different types. In the worst case you may use stock bay part, and put small tanks into it.

[ZobrAA]

3 hours ago, IgorZ said:

In order to use this approach any tank you want using this way must implement a KIS module. And it won't work for "dynamic" tanks (those that may change their resource type in the editor).

Me personally would be happy, if this trick allow me to resupply my station with lifesupport and monopropellant. No need for huge variety of tanks - just a couple of most handy parts, that I can patch by hand with custom config.

3 hours ago, IgorZ said:

For the fuel re-supply it's better to use other approaches. There are modular containers that may be equipped with tanks of different types. In the worst case you may use stock bay part, and put small tanks into it.

The whole point in NOT using any custom resource containers except KIS container. In my case, I working on a project of mini-shuttle, based on mk2 fuselage and I want to have unmanned version of the same shuttle with MK2 Containers:

You know, like Souyz and Progress ships - same lifter, same ascend and reentry profile, same everything except cargo.

Edited July 27, 2016 by ZobrAA

[IgorZ]

4 hours ago, ZobrAA said:

In my case, I working on a project of mini-shuttle, based on mk2 fuselage and I want to have unmanned version of the same shuttle with MK2 Containers:

It sounds to me like you're looking for a cheat It's your game and you decide how to play but original idea assumes that vessel consists of a set of connected parts, and you want to simplify it down to a plain parts list. That's what KIS inventory is - a list of parts without the actual parts. Nobody can stop you from cheating (and nobody will even try) but designing KIS with a cheat in mind is not exactly what is this mod about. EVA propellant tank is not a cheat because of it has negligible volume (10 units), and is a handheld item. Using the same approach anyone (e.g. you) can create any tank of any size for any resource. Feel free to create such a mod if you feel it's useful. And I tend to think KIS should not take this responsibility.

If you need help creating your own parts feel free to ask. I'm ready to help. Moreover, I'm interested to make KIS so what people could use it for making own cool parts

[igor290506]

this mod is telling me that soud file is missiog how do i install this mod

 

[IgorZ]

37 minutes ago, igor290506 said:

this mod is telling me that soud file is missiog how do i install this mod

How exactly does it tell it?

[ZobrAA]

6 hours ago, IgorZ said:

It sounds to me like you're looking for a cheat It's your game and you decide how to play but original idea assumes that vessel consists of a set of connected parts, and you want to simplify it down to a plain parts list. That's what KIS inventory is - a list of parts without the actual parts. Nobody can stop you from cheating (and nobody will even try) but designing KIS with a cheat in mind is not exactly what is this mod about. EVA propellant tank is not a cheat because of it has negligible volume (10 units), and is a handheld item.

Hm, I did not think from such perspective

6 hours ago, IgorZ said:

If you need help creating your own parts feel free to ask. I'm ready to help. Moreover, I'm interested to make KIS so what people could use it for making own cool parts

As I can understand from source code from ModuleKISItemEvaPropellant.cs - it will not work for anything but eva propellant? I'm not a programmer so not sure... If so, that means, my idea not reachable with simple config tweaking. Ah, well...

Anyway thx you for answering my silly questions

[Aelfhe1m]

@ZobrAA have a look at Modular Fuel Tanks (or Real Fuels). Their tanks can be configured to hold multiple resources (including electric charge and life support) in a single part with the available volume divided up however you want. You could then have your resupply vehicle have a MFT for consumables and a KIS container for spare parts.

[ZobrAA]

1 hour ago, Aelfhe1m said:

@ZobrAA have a look at Modular Fuel Tanks (or Real Fuels). Their tanks can be configured to hold multiple resources (including electric charge and life support) in a single part with the available volume divided up however you want. You could then have your resupply vehicle have a MFT for consumables and a KIS container for spare parts.

Thx for advice!

[Ruedii]

17 hours ago, IgorZ said:

They are used. In order to drop anything you need to choose the right height above the ground, this height is calculated via the current attach node position. If node position is outside the part's collider the object will appear above the ground and may crash due to gravity. If node position is inside the part's collider the collision happens. Depending on the gravity force, mass of the part, and the delta the collision the part may: jump, fly away, or explode.

E.g. this is the issue for the stock docking ports: their back node resides inside the part's collider. As a result if you place a docking port on the ground "face " up you'll see it flying away on bodies with low gravity, on Kerbin they will just jump up a bit due to the strong gravity that compensates collision enhancer pull out force. On Minmus tiny and medium ports will explode because the acceleration exceeds part's limit.

Exactly my point.  And a simple check could prevent this.

It's probably not a bug so much as a missing feature, so sorry about the phrasing there.

As of exploding when attaching, that is a bug if the part is part of the same vessel to that of which it's colliding.  It means that the colliders are initializing before the part becomes attached to the craft.

As of exploding and (flying into the air) when attaching to the ground this can be fixed with some simple removal of collision checks. 

An object attached to the ground should not be checked for collision with the ground.  The base game has no need for such a feature because it doesn't let you attach objects to the ground.

I don't mean to sound argumentative about this.  It's just a real problem, even with stock parts, and it should be addressed.  Whether it is a bug or a lack of a feature is a trivial matter.  It's really besides the point it doesn't matter.   Just don't feel like it's something wrong with the mod.  It isn't, it's just something that would help make it work better.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Ruedii

[goldenpsp]

4 minutes ago, Ruedii said:

Exactly my point.  And a simple check could prevent this.

It's probably not a bug so much as a missing feature, so sorry about the phrasing there.

As of exploding when attaching, that is a bug if the part is part of the same vessel to that of which it's colliding.  It means that the colliders are initializing before the part becomes attached to the craft.

As of exploding and (flying into the air) when attaching to the ground this can be fixed with some simple removal of collision checks. 

An object attached to the ground should not be checked for collision with the ground.  The base game has no need for such a feature because it doesn't let you attach objects to the ground.

I don't mean to sound argumentative about this.  It's just a real problem, even with stock parts, and it should be addressed.  Whether it is a bug or a lack of a feature is a trivial matter.

This issue has existed since the dawn of KAS, back when it was just KAS (not KIS and KAS).  I would imagine if it was as easy as you seem to indicate it would have been addressed by Kospy back when he started working on the mod.

That being said you seem to have a handle on what needs to be done.  I'm sure @IgorZ would be happy with the help/pull request.

[Ruedii]

5 hours ago, goldenpsp said:

This issue has existed since the dawn of KAS, back when it was just KAS (not KIS and KAS).  I would imagine if it was as easy as you seem to indicate it would have been addressed by Kospy back when he started working on the mod.

That being said you seem to have a handle on what needs to be done.  I'm sure @IgorZ would be happy with the help/pull request.

Yes, this has been a problem off and on for a LONG time.  The issue presented itself different ways in different KSP versions, with the latest version causing explosions.
It's a needed feature, not a bug.  I probably should have been clear on that.

Unfortunately I only know an outline of what needs to be done.

When dropping a collision check done, and then it should simply refuse to drop until you correct the height, or it should lift the height until it is clear (Lifting the height might actually be a better, more automatic option.)

When attaching to the ground one of the collision checks in the main game needs to be turned off.  This is probably a separate bug. 

Finally, when attaching to a craft, the part's physics should not be turned on until it is connected.  This will fix issues with parts exploding when the node is misplaced and the colider overlaps the ship's colider.

I'll try to get this put on as a feature request soon, with a more detailed outline of proper behavior.
 

[IgorZ]

28 minutes ago, Ruedii said:

Unfortunately I only know an outline of what needs to be done.

And I can outline what needs to be done to build a space ship to fly to Mars and back. Alas, it's not enough to really launch the mission. Same with KIS/KAS code: there are ideas and there is a real code that implements them. How to fix these issues "in general" is obvious. Objects collide? Turn off the colliders! Height is incorrect? Make it correct! It's simple, isn't it? Problems start when you start implementing real code. And this is when you realize the reality is more complex: Unity don't give much control over colliders, some locations may have multiple surface colliders, KSP doesn't use Unity gravity model, and many other surprising things. Long story short, it's not as easy as it appears to be.

53 minutes ago, Ruedii said:

I'll try to get this put on as a feature request soon, with a more detailed outline of proper behavior.

If by proper behavior you mean a design of the feature then OK. If you mean things like "disable collider here and correct height there" then it will be barely useful.

[Cyrious]

Question: Can KIS containers be used to store parts that have a science value attached to them, and can it be used to perform "return x part to kerbin" missions?

[goldenpsp]

1 minute ago, Cyrious said:

Question: Can KIS containers be used to store parts that have a science value attached to them, and can it be used to perform "return x part to kerbin" missions?

no

[IgorZ]

20 minutes ago, Cyrious said:

Question: Can KIS containers be used to store parts that have a science value attached to them, and can it be used to perform "return x part to kerbin" missions?

It won't work if you just bring them in the container since parts in container are not real parts. Though, someone mentioned you can attach these parts on the vessel once landed on Kerbin, and the contract will succeed. Never tried it myself.

[Cyrious]

4 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

It won't work if you just bring them in the container since parts in container are not real parts. Though, someone mentioned you can attach these parts on the vessel once landed on Kerbin, and the contract will succeed. Never tried it myself.

Ah ok, guess that answers my question. Looks like I get to do these scrap missions the hard way.

[eonmoon]

heh, i got a few methods, one use micro tugs and docking port jr to dock the small pods in.a big bay. or dock a tug and heat sheild to one side. then dock a thrust module with hearsheild to one side. the second  dock the thrust and gyro module with shutes into the other side and drop it i to the atmo.  

 

as to issues, i have one that when i open a container it closes the container instantly. it takes a few tries to open one. and dont think items have stored inside

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not understanding something here:

I'm trying to build a mining base in pieces rather than the whole thing in a single launch.  I thought I could use KIS to hook the separate parts together with pipes so they would act as one ship--but when I try to hook the core up to the skycrane that brought it (just a test, although once in operation one of the first tasks will be to refuel that skycrane) I get a connection that allows me to transfer resources.  Is my understanding wrong or am I doing something wrong?

[IgorZ]

5 minutes ago, Loren Pechtel said:

I thought I could use KIS to hook the separate parts together with pipes

Pipes are provided by KAS, but you may need KIS as well if you plan to assemble modules on the surface (e.g. attaching drills to the base). If you need a hard connection you use two ports and connect them via a pipe. If you need to only tether two vessels (e.g. when lifting a module with a skycrane) you should use winches.

[Loren Pechtel]

30 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

Pipes are provided by KAS, but you may need KIS as well if you plan to assemble modules on the surface (e.g. attaching drills to the base). If you need a hard connection you use two ports and connect them via a pipe. If you need to only tether two vessels (e.g. when lifting a module with a skycrane) you should use winches.

The thing is when I connected the pipe it was offering to transfer resources--I'm after a tighter coupling than that.  The engineer for the drills would be in one base, the design I currently have stores fuel and ore, mono and xenon tanks would be separate.  I'm looking for a modular design that can grow, not one massive bird that I launch once.

[IgorZ]

On 7/28/2016 at 2:49 PM, Loren Pechtel said:

I'm looking for a modular design that can grow, not one massive bird that I launch once.

KAS is exactly what you need. You can attach smaller components into a bigger base by using "Link" ability of the ports. You may choose to attach the ports before the launch (i.e. at the design stage), or you can attach them in EVA via KIS mod. Just bring enough spare CC-R2 ports and an engineer with a mechanical screw driver.

[Wuwuk]

KIS 1.2.12 compatible with KSP 1.1.3?