MarkusA380

[1.4] PersistentRotation 1.8.5

Recommended Posts

Toolbar has been updated...

On one of my saves I have a solar powered craft that is spin stabilised around Minmus but unfortunately the spin is just a little too fast for the tracking solar panels to face the sun so I can't get enough power to make a connection to KSC (I use Remotetech) so I think the only cost effective solution is that I will have to wait until Kerbin moves along it's axis enough, the craft will slightly change it's angle to the sun and I can reactivate my craft.

The other option is to send a manned craft and point it at the sun manually but that would be costly...

Just a suggestion, you could try editing the save file to add some electric. If the problem is caused by a bug, I personally don't consider it cheating to do this since you are just working round the bug.

LGG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just a suggestion, you could try editing the save file to add some electric. If the problem is caused by a bug, I personally don't consider it cheating to do this since you are just working round the bug.

LGG

I don't see it as a bug, it's because I spin stabilised too quickly for the panels to track the sun. They get just enough to start tracking then the craft has turned away and they get no sun any more. I found it satisfying in a way, I learned something again (to put a couple of static panels on the body of any craft I make as backup) that I keep needing to learn when I play KSP it seems.

In the same way that your craft can break up with FAR or burn up with DRE or not have enough torque with saturatable reaction wheels, having a craft stably spinning pointing the wrong way was 'fun'

I may either launch a craft into the same orbit to get a connection to the first craft or eve just bump it a bit so it faces the sun a bit more or send a kerbal up there to 'fix' it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What kind of issues? I'll wait and be patient, I just want to know what kind of bugs there are.

I'm curious as well, because I haven't seen any problems with my (admittedly limited) game in KSP 1.0.2 using 0.4.3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How's development going?

I have different stuff to do, too, but I am working on it. Currently fiddling around with Unity's windows, wich turned out to be pretty complicated.

I have fixed all bugs, though. Well, as far as I think. ;)

Edited by MarkusA380

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here you go! 0.5.0 released! Tell me about any issues you may find as soon as you can ;)

Found an issue: No donation link! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate to be that guy, but with the loss of blizzy toolbar use the mod has a permanent open menu taking up valuable screen space. Please add some toggle or go back to blizzys. Downgrading for the moment. Thanks for the update! Didnt want to be negative jsut wanted to give feedback. Also please don't go to the stockbar without a blizzy option. I have so many mods the stock bar sucks even more :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Found an issue: No donation link! :)

Wow are you serious? Thanks! :o

Well then... here is the link to curse, it has a donation button:

http://www.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/228692-x-persistentrotation

I hate to be that guy, but with the loss of blizzy toolbar use the mod has a permanent open menu taking up valuable screen space. Please add some toggle or go back to blizzys. Downgrading for the moment. Thanks for the update! Didnt want to be negative jsut wanted to give feedback. Also please don't go to the stockbar without a blizzy option. I have so many mods the stock bar sucks even more :(

Sorry to hear that. I will try to make it even smaller or invisible somehow, but I don't want to use Blizzy any more. Well, maybe as optional feature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wow are you serious? Thanks! :o

Well then... here is the link to curse, it has a donation button:

http://www.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/228692-x-persistentrotation

Sorry to hear that. I will try to make it even smaller or invisible somehow, but I don't want to use Blizzy any more. Well, maybe as optional feature.

Optional would be perfect I just don't want it to permanently be there. I do like the new menu system. And again just wanted to give feedback take the mod in whatever direction you see fit ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CKAN has the latest version of this mod, but still adds the toolbar as a dependency.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CKAN has the latest version of this mod, but still adds the toolbar as a dependency.

Working on it.

Update: CKAN just merged, as one of the admins says. It should refresh soon.

Update2: Dependency is gone.

Edited by MarkusA380

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here you go! 0.5.0 released! Tell me about any issues you may find as soon as you can ;)

I'm excitedly trying this... last time I gave it a solid try I was immediately faced with rotation changing drastically to something different as soon when time-warp was started. Sounds like that is fixed!

PersistentRotation 0.5.0

Changelog

- Removed dependency to Blizzy's Toolbar, now completely standalone

- Seemingly fixed bug changing momentum when entering timewarp

- Major code cleanup

Writing my feedback as I try it...

  • REALLY pumped to hear that a previous enhancement was to rotate asteroids!
  • Glad to find it on KerbalStuff and CKAN
  • Glad to hear that it doesn't *depend* on Blizzy's Toolbar
    • Dropping the dependency also drops the ability to use Blizzy's Toolbar all together?? I hope not...
    • I use Blizzy's Toolbar all the time to clean up Toolbar Icons that I rarely use, I appreciate having that option while also appreciating the ability to use Mods when/if Blizzy's Toolbar is not available (not yet patched for instance)
    • I'm hopeful "removed dependency" just means that Blizzy's is not required but still an option

    [*]I don't see anything about maintaining an orientation that requires a persistent rotation being an option yet

    • Use Stock SAS to hold an Anti Radial Orientation through time-warp
    • I'm still hopeful that this becomes a thing =)
    • In Hindsight: I was totally wrong about this! Awesome!

    [*]Launching Kerbal-X:

    • I see Persistent Rotation window in the center of the screen & "maximize" button, not sure what that is yet
    • Ok, it allows me to select a body and see the gravity of my crew I think
    • I can't hide it can I - that's probably going to be a deal breaker - but I'm hopeful
    • In Hindsight: It cannot yet be hidden :'(

    [*]On my way to orbit I initiated a roll - received a warning that crew were reaching an artificial gravity limit - NEAT

    • Wow, if that kills them ... I had no idea a roll like that would be that hard on them but I suppose it makes sense
    • In Hindsight: It totally kills them! Pretty nice mechanic...probably needs to be optionally disabled in the future

    [*]Once over 70 km I was still rolling (with 3.1 G on the crew) - 5x TimeWarp - it persists just like I would expect! Yay!

    [*]Initiating a tumble... 1.1 G - 5x TimeWarp - Nice - This is wonderful - I wanna keep it!

    [*]I don't think I understand "BODY RELATIVE ROTATION" - probably need to do some reading

    • It says Current Body: none - and I can change it, but I don't think anything changes

    [*]So this probably won't work but...

    • in a circularized orbit
    • point craft toward planet surface (without SAS)
    • without any input (and without SAS) - my nose drifts east on the navball - TimeWarp speeds up this drift as expected
    • turn on SAS (Stability Assist mode) - my nose drifts east on the navball - TimeWarp speeds drift up as expected
    • switch SAS to Anti-Radial mode - nose stays pointed at the surface - TimeWarp causes a drift to the east as before - unfortunate
    • turn off SAS - initiate tiny rotation to the west - TimeWarp - kinda works, that's neat

    [*]Really pleased it's not throwing errors or anything into the log - looking at the changelog you've put some time into that

    • MUCH APPRECIATED!

    [*]I don't suppose this "BODY RELATIVE ROTATION" thing actually relates to what I'm trying to do here... I can't quite imagine it would but lets see how it changes those tests. Might as well set Current Body to Kerbin and repeat

    • Umm, that's totally working? AWESOME! - but what the heck, how does this work ...
    • Point Anti-Radial - Kill All Rotation - Turn SAS Off - TimeWarp - Result: Slight drift to the East
    • Point Anti-Radial - Turn SAS On (Stability Assist mode) - TimeWarp - Result: Doesn't drift at all! Wow!
      • And not sure that's quite right but ok...

      [*]Point Anti-Radial - Switch SAS to Anti-Radial - TimeWarp - Result: No drift, remains pointed at planet

      [*]So what the heck am I setting - Change body to Mun

      [*]With it set to Mun I drift while under time-warp

      [*]So what if I target the Mun and point at it from my orbit around Kerbin...

      [*]Man, I'm not sure if it's doing what I think it is or not... Going to read the thread about this feature

      [*]In Hindsight: I can see that I was thinking about this differently than the label of the feature was describing it. It makes more sense now that I understand it. It's also more complex than what I was looking for.

So ok - in the original post it explains it as - (really sorry I misunderstood this the first time I read it...)

Your vessels will be able to keep their rotation relatively to any celestial body. This means you can build Space Stations that follow the planets curvature they are orbiting, but also ships in orbit around any planet always pointing to Kerbol (for best efficiency of solar panels, for example). This doesn't only work in Timewarp, but also the SAS will do the same in Realtime as long as you have a body selected.

0.4.0

- Vessels can rotate relatively to any celestial body in Timewarp and using the SAS in Realtime.

So that's fantastic! So sorry I doubted it was there! Trying to wrap my head around this in my own words...as soon as I set a "BODY RELATIVE ROTATION" my craft initiates a tiny rotation that ensures my orientation to it's center does not change. And by using SAS to eliminate any other rotation my craft may have on it, this rotation (and thus orientation) is preserved throughout a time-warp. I absolutely love it! ...I do also realize that I wish the UI had wrapped my head around this concept earlier but in hindsight I'm not certain how it would look in order to accomplish that. Maybe some additional SAS mode buttons? Matching their style and hover-text, the top one could say "Match Rotation of Current Body," a second could be, "Match Rotation of Target Body," the 3rd button, when clicked, would allow you to specify which body?

Conclusions:

  • I am certain you already know this but a way to hide the window is critical
  • Ideally, *one* of the ways to hide the window could be a button on a toolbar, and if Blizzy's Toolbar was an *option* that would be helpful to people who like to clean up their stock toolbar
  • I'm going to keep this installed so I can report back any additional appreciation, bugs, or suggestions - I love the concepts
  • I do hope you continue to work on it and improve its flexibility - options I'm certain people will want/require:
    • "With a config, I can setup Persistent Rotation to just persist my rotation in Time-Warp - I don't need or want any windows, gravitational messages, crew danger, or body relative rotation"
    • "I love it but wish it didn't kill my crew"
    • "I love it but wish I could set it up and hide the window for the rest of my game play"

Thanks man! More than pleasantly surprised and impressed today! Really nice work!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this a known issue? It appears that while in time-warp and under a rotation that when I hit the atmosphere and the game disables time-warp that all rotation is halted.

EDIT: The more I watch this happen the more I realize it's not actually happening like I thought - just the rotation is very fast visually while under warp and at normal speed it can hardly be seen - my mistake

Edited by Black-Talon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like what this plugin does, but I have to second the calls for a hide-able interface - or better yet an integration with the new KSP stock toolbar ...but I bet that's really hard! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, for all: Yes, the Window can't be completely hidden. Yet. I will add Blizzy and/or stock Toolbar to do that. But Blizzy will only be optional.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok, for all: Yes, the Window can't be completely hidden. Yet. I will add Blizzy and/or stock Toolbar to do that. But Blizzy will only be optional.

Awesome thank you! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry to hear that. I will try to make it even smaller or invisible somehow, but I don't want to use Blizzy any more. Well, maybe as optional feature.

What's your reason for not wanting to use the Blizzy toolbar? It's much smaller than the stock bar, plus it's position can be configured, it can be rotated, it can have subfolders for icons you don't use a lot in game (like the settings for DistantObject, or EVE), it can be set to hide until mouse over.

If plugins started abandoning Blizzy's toolbar for the stock toolbar my gui would look like I had a row of 20 postage stamps stuck on the top-right corner of the screen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What's your reason for not wanting to use the Blizzy toolbar? It's much smaller than the stock bar, plus it's position can be configured, it can be rotated, it can have subfolders for icons you don't use a lot in game (like the settings for DistantObject, or EVE), it can be set to hide until mouse over.

If plugins started abandoning Blizzy's toolbar for the stock toolbar my gui would look like I had a row of 20 postage stamps stuck on the top-right corner of the screen.

QFT, but as long as it's an option thats all I ask :D. Love this mod!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What's your reason for not wanting to use the Blizzy toolbar? It's much smaller than the stock bar, plus it's position can be configured, it can be rotated, it can have subfolders for icons you don't use a lot in game (like the settings for DistantObject, or EVE), it can be set to hide until mouse over.

If plugins started abandoning Blizzy's toolbar for the stock toolbar my gui would look like I had a row of 20 postage stamps stuck on the top-right corner of the screen.

I always prefer if a mod can run with blizzy's toolbar and also the stock one, then the user has options and an update is not dependent on a mod from a third party.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New version released!

Upon request you can now choose between Stock or Blizzy's Toolbar or permanent visibility for the GUI. Those configurations are not persistent yet. Sorry for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello, is there any possibility for this mod to be compatible with Remote Tech? Well, it seems to be "compatible" as in not totaly broken, but Remote Tech has it's own "SAS" system for probes, but it doesn't work in warp mode with this mod... Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't remove this Persistence window. Using latest version, OSX machine.

16891423013_da36470d60_o.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I originally wrote, "I do also realize that I wish the [BODY RELATIVE ROTATION] UI had wrapped my head around this concept earlier but in hindsight I'm not certain how it would look in order to accomplish that. Maybe some additional SAS mode buttons? Matching their style and hover-text, the top one could say "Match Rotation of Current Body," a second could be, "Match Rotation of Target Body," the 3rd button, when clicked, would allow you to specify which body?"

I have liked this idea more and more as I've thought about it (of course I like it more - our own ideas are always the best in our heads!). I do now see that the whole situation is quite complex. Let me walk through it so others can riff on it (or rip it up) in their own minds.

First, let me try to explain in hindsight what I thought I wanted and why I was convinced it wasn't there. I'll do this by looking at the existing SAS Modes:

[1] Top Row - Stability Assist & Maneuver

  • Not In Time-Warp: Both of these modes lock my vessel's orientation to a direction, a point in space, that does not move. The orientation of my craft, and the direction my craft is pointing in space, stays static. My craft does not rotate, even though the world rotates around me.

  • In Time-Warp: Exactly the same as non-warp. Since stock Time-Warp kills rotation, but no rotation needed to be retained in order to maintain the expected behavior, everything works as expected here regardless of warp.
  • Expected Default Behavior w/ PersistentRotation installed: No change - and no option to persist a rotation while in this mode or it would mess up the function of this SAS mode?
  • Actual Default-Behavior w/ w/ PersistentRotation installed: No change - but there is an option to persist a rotation while in this mode - I can't think of a use case for this but I'm likely missing something. Handle some other way? These SAS modes seems very specific to not rotating. To Persist a Rotation while in these SAS modes breaks their intended purpose.

[2] Second Row - Prograde & Retrograde

  • Not In Time-Warp: Both of these modes lock my vessel's orientation to a vector which changes as the position of my craft orbits. Even while in a circular orbit the direction of "Prograde" changes. While not in Time-Warp, the stock game uses a continuous application of reaction wheels to constantly correct my orientation to be the current prograde.

  • In Time-Warp: Since stock Time-Warp kills rotation, and rotation is needed in order to preserve the orientation to Prograde, the desired rotation is not preserved while in warp.
  • Expected Default Behavior w/ PersistentRotation installed: Persist a constant tiny rotation that preserves the crafts orientation with the prograde marker. This is simple in a circular orbit as the direction of the prograde marker changes consistently throughout a single orbit. In an elliptical orbit the rotation isn't constant and would require changes along the orbit in order to match the prograde orientation at any point. I have no idea how PersistentRotation would/should handle this. If there is a way to program it then prograde orientation should be held and some resource utilization could/should technically be used up to account for the corrections along the way. But mostly I'd personally love it to just maintain prograde without regard for resource usage. ...then there are gravitation sphere of influence changes...I haven't thought through those but I suspect that they change the definition of what prograde is and thus create a big problem. What would be expected here?
  • Actual Default-Behavior w/ w/ PersistentRotation installed: Nearly identical to the expected behavior described BUT it requires you to choose your parent body before it'll behave that way. Perhaps because of the drawbacks I described of other usage scenarios.

[3] Third Row - Normal & Anti-Normal

  • Stock Behavior !In Time-Warp: Holds direction of Normal or Anti-Normal which does not change. What does change is that my craft's orientation towards the body I am orbiting is changing. But in reality, my craft isn't changing it's position, the world is rotating around it.

  • Stock Behavior In Time-Warp: Same as non-time-warp behavior. Craft is fixed in orientation, thus things rotate around the craft but the craft doesn't persist any rotation.
  • PersistentRotation Expected Default Behavior: This is an interesting one but given that the non-warp behavior doesn't persist any rotation then I have to go with warp isn't supposed to be rotating. But I totally buy that there should be an option to persist a rotation (a roll) in order to maintain a constant orientation to the parent body. ...that means we'd end up with a lot of questions about what to do about non-standard orbits.
  • PersistentRotation Actual Default Behavior: No persistent rotation as desired. Option to persist a rotation as desired. Win!

[4] Fourth Row - Radial & Anti-Radial

  • Stock Behavior !In Time-Warp: Holds direction of Radial or Anti-Radial which changes as my craft orbits.
  • Stock Behavior In Time-Warp: Just like other modes that move while I orbit (Prograde/Retrograde), time-warp doesn't persist a rotation to keep up. Nor does a single constant time-warp suffice if I'm in a non-circularized orbit.
  • PersistentRotation Expected Default Behavior: Ideally this would work by persisting a rotation to keep the craft oriented the same way it is during non-warp.
  • PersistentRotation Actual Default Behavior: Requires user to choose to persist a rotation. Doesn't have a mechanism to handle non-circularized orbits. Just like Prograde/Retrograde.

[5] Fifth Row - Target & Anti-Target

  • Skipping this one as it may be more complex and either way I've made my primary point already.

A solution? Additional SAS Mode Options?

You'll see above that my expectation is that with PersistentRotation installed I would expect the default behavior in warp to match the stock behavior in non-warp. This gives us a good guide for default Persistent Rotation behavior imo. Now UI could reflect this behavior somehow - indicating this functionality amongst the stock UI has the added benefit over just unexpected "default behavior" because it communicates to a user that something is happening different from stock.

I think it's fair to say that the craft must have SAS engaged in order to persist a rotation that keeps the craft oriented in relation to another body. So making the BODY RELATIVE ROTATION options SAS modes makes some sense.

Perhaps there are only two at the bottom of the current options:

05.11.2015-00.12.png

Perhaps there is a 3rd circle to the right which allows you to open a menu and select any body?

Once these options were there, the "maintain orientation with parent body" could be ticked on automatically when the user selected other modes such as Prograde, Retrograde, Radial, and Anti-Radial. By doing so, the default behavior in time-warp would match the stock behavior of non-warp. And other visuals could be done to represent the reality, if the player had Stability selected and turned on Match Parent Body Rotation, it would turn off Stability I would think. It's too bad Stability doesn't function more like a "Kill-Rot" - then it might still make some sense to keep it on while you selected Match Parent Body Rotation.

Anyway, this turned into something much longer than expected so I'll let it go at this. Hopefully the idea is spelled out enough to mix and mingle with other ideas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.