Flashing laser on plane or helicopter

[Camacha]

Not really.

It is, in the sense that in both cases they are childishly naive that their actions will result in anything. The robber probably seriously expected to get away that way and that is silly and somewhat adorable. It is different in the sense that one means harm, while the other probably does not.

[Tech Support]

I remember reading the 'The laser to the pilot's eye' trick in tom Clancy's "debt of honor" but that was a spec-ops team with a military grade laser designator, do commercial lasers have sufficient range and power to blind pilots landing/taking off ?

[Camacha]

do commercial lasers have sufficient range and power to blind pilots landing/taking off ?

The only reasonable answer is it depends on the laser, as there are very weak and very powerful examples out there.

[Tech Support]

yes, I mean can you get a sufficiently powerful laser easily ? at a cost and quantity where it could be called a genuine threat to flight ? if not, then this whole episode seems silly.

[Camacha]

yes, I mean can you get a sufficiently powerful laser easily ? at a cost and quantity where it could be called a genuine threat to flight ? if not, then this whole episode seems silly.

There are some pretty beefy lasers available. Nothing like the Star Wars program, but harmful for eyes for sure. At what range those still are remains to be seen, though.

[Pawelk198604]

Not really. A car thief firing beams at a helicopter to avoid capture is more like someone tossing caltrops on the road behind them -- it causes risk (and unlike airliners, a helicopter chasing a car has a *much* more increased risk to dazzle, because helicopters are less stable and they're flying lower), it's not like shooting a gun at pursuers (classing it as attempted murder would be rather excessive), and it's for the purpose of escaping the cops (doing things to stop the cops from chasing you is illegal). A stupid kid isn't trying to interfere with a pilot by shining a laser at them; if you're *trying* to interfere with a pilot, that's a much more serious crime (and rightly so), because you can't claim "I didn't think it would cause any harm." It is not safe to shine a laser at a police helicopter pilot flying at low altitudes. It is not innocuous. It should be punished reasonably severely.

You're right because when such cop in a helicopter, you will lose control over the machine, it can end up a much greater tragedy than regular gunfire, because the helicopter can fall in a densely populated area.

I myself once tried to fly a helicopter, of course, in the simulator, and it was much more difficult than piloting planes or even spacecraft.

Here in Poland, our Criminal Code criminalizes all actions which threaten the security of transport: by road, rail, water or air

[worir4]

How does the laser blind the pilot? Does it glare of the windscreen?

[B787_300]

Worir4 more importantly it could distract the pilot and as I said earlier the times when the plane or chopper is flying low enough would be when it is landing or taking off or doing SAR, all times when you cant afford to be distracted. That is why it is illegal to do it.

[Nibb31]

How does the laser blind the pilot? Does it glare of the windscreen?

It damages the retina. Don't try pointing a laser into your eyes.

[Dkmdlb]

I once read an Amazon review for a portable laser where the reviewer had it at a wedding reception, and explained before passing it around to everybody how important it was not to shine it in their eyes. A few minutes later, he turns around and sees a friend of a friend holding it right up to their eye at point-blank range with the laser on with everybody standing around laughing.

It wasn't until he ran over and made a big scene that he discovered the person had a glass eye.

XD

[lajoswinkler]

A car thief firing beams at a helicopter in attempt to evade capture... is not "a stupid kid with a laser."

But we are discussing stupid kids with a laser.

yes, I mean can you get a sufficiently powerful laser easily ? at a cost and quantity where it could be called a genuine threat to flight ? if not, then this whole episode seems silly.

You can, if you have the money. You can also build them yourself using less expensive parts. For someone who can spend couple of hundred of dollars, making a several watt clumsy weapon is a reality. More money - less hassle. You can just buy it. Thankfully, current situation is that basically only laser enthusiasts buy them. Everything over 500 mW is really something you need eye protection for if you want to point it at the floor, trees, etc. Several watt lasers are way too dangerous for just having fun.

How does the laser blind the pilot? Does it glare of the windscreen?

Usually, yes. Chances of the ray hitting the pupil are very slim, but with high powered lasers you can have distorted reflections carrying enough energy to still be harmful.

Danger depends on several factors so it's difficult to evaluate it.

Rest assured, pointing a red 5 mW presentation pointer into a jet plane several kilometres above you won't even be noticed.

He made a mistake. Never give a high powered laser to a bunch of people. Chances are high there's a moron among them. Also, groups think differently than individuals.

[Camacha]

Worir4 more importantly it could distract the pilot and as I said earlier the times when the plane or chopper is flying low enough would be when it is landing or taking off or doing SAR, all times when you cant afford to be distracted. That is why it is illegal to do it.

To be fair, a pilot that is distracted in relevant ways by something like that is not worth his salt.

[ZetaX]

To be fair, a pilot that is distracted in relevant ways by something like that is not worth his salt.

So being blinded by laser is just a minor inconvenience everyone should be able to deal with¿ Especially when landing a plane full of people¿

That "distraction" is as much a simple distraction as sawing of your leg is.

[Camacha]

So being blinded by laser is just a minor inconvenience everyone should be able to deal with¿ Especially when landing a plane full of people¿

I did not say that and that is a gross misrepresentation of what I did say. I did not say it is a good idea, I said pilots should be able to deal with such an event. If that throws you off in a way your craft will be in danger you might want to reconsider your position in the cockpit.

That "distraction" is as much a simple distraction as sawing of your leg is.

Could you maybe explain why you would consider the great and permanently invalidating pain and trauma of sawing someone's leg off should be comparable to the generally minor nuisance of a light being blinked in your eye? Even in the most problematic cases it seems the pilot sustained only some discomfort and temporary blinding.

Comparing those is somewhat silly.

[ZetaX]

I did not say that and that is a gross misrepresentation of what I did say. I did not say it is a good idea, I said pilots should be able to deal with such an event. If that throws you off in a way your craft will be in danger you might want to reconsider your position in the cockpit.

Could you maybe explain why you would consider the great and permanently invalidating pain and trauma of sawing someone's leg off should be comparable to the generally minor nuisance of a light being blinked in your eye? Even in the most problematic cases it seems the pilot sustained only some discomfort and temporary blinding.

Comparing those is somewhat silly.

Not silly at all. A very weak one acts like a bright light. You simply cannot see in the darkness with that. That's just how human eyes work. Nobody can and you can't really learn to avoid that. Imagine driving a car at night, when suddenly a very bright light comes into view; it's like that.

And now if someone uses an actually potent laser (100mW or more), then it can cause permanent eye damage. There are 1W and higher ones commercially available. How is loosing your eye by it being burned out by very potent lasers not comparable to sawing of a leg¿ And all that while steering a plane.

[magnemoe]

But we are discussing stupid kids with a laser.

A stupid kid would deserve an light spanking or an long timeout. Seriously an kid would not understand that he was doing.

Compare with kid shooting with rifle on an target mounted on an fence, bullets pass trough and into the neighbor house, this is far more common.

Real story, friend of my wanted to get qualified to hunt moose so he borrowed an target who showed if he hit target, it stopped working and he went over and looked at it: it was trashed. It was designed for long rifle not 7.62. It set him back $500. He is pretty smart, has an business with employees he just did not think about material thickness.

You can, if you have the money. You can also build them yourself using less expensive parts. For someone who can spend couple of hundred of dollars, making a several watt clumsy weapon is a reality. More money - less hassle. You can just buy it. Thankfully, current situation is that basically only laser enthusiasts buy them. Everything over 500 mW is really something you need eye protection for if you want to point it at the floor, trees, etc. Several watt lasers are way too dangerous for just having fun.

Usually, yes. Chances of the ray hitting the pupil are very slim, but with high powered lasers you can have distorted reflections carrying enough energy to still be harmful.

Danger depends on several factors so it's difficult to evaluate it.

Rest assured, pointing a red 5 mW presentation pointer into a jet plane several kilometres above you won't even be noticed.

He made a mistake. Never give a high powered laser to a bunch of people. Chances are high there's a moron among them. Also, groups think differently than individuals.

So much this, first reaction from half the students in high school then getting an Geiger counter was breath into it and getting disappointed it did not react.

[Camacha]

And now if someone uses an actually potent laser (100mW or more), then it can cause permanent eye damage. There are 1W and higher ones commercially available. How is loosing your eye by it being burned out by very potent lasers not comparable to sawing of a leg¿ And all that while steering a plane.

In that worst case scenario, where you have an exceptionally powerful laser, someone with an amazing aim and a pilot that happens to be hit in exactly the wrong spot while looking the wrong way, yes, it might result in significant bodily harm. Yet either one of those is unlikely and the combination of all extremely rare. So in pretty much every realistic scenario it would merely be a distraction that any pilot worth his salt should able to deal with, exactly like I said before.

Comparing the pointing of a laser at an aircraft with sawing the pilots leg of is fairly ridiculous and does not help the discussion at all. Let us be realistic about it. Pointing a laser at an aircraft is an incredibly stupid thing to do and you should never do it, since it increases the risk of problems, but the actual risk is very small and something any pilot should be realistically be able to deal with, even if some extremely rare exceptions apply. Any pilot not capable of dealing with minor incidents should not be in a cockpit.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Camacha

[Specialist290]

In that worst case scenario, where you have an exceptionally powerful laser, someone with an amazing aim and a pilot that happens to be hit in exactly the wrong spot while looking the wrong way, yes, it might result in significant bodily harm. Yet either one of those is unlikely and the combination of all extremely rare. So in pretty much every realistic scenario it would merely be a distraction that any pilot worth his salt should able to deal with, exactly like I said before.

Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.

The law of truly large numbers: With a large enough sample size, even the most outrageous and improbable event has a high likelihood of occurring eventually.

To quote a 2006 review prepared by the Federal Aviation Administration itself: " There were 90 reported instances of laser illumination during the study period [of 13 months]. A total of 53 reports involved laser exposure of commercial aircraft. Lasers illuminated the cockpit in 41 (46%) of the incidents. Of those, 13 (32%) incidents resulted in visual impairment or distraction to a pilot, including 1 incident that reportedly resulted in ocular injury."

I've also taken the liberty of quoting one of the specific incident summaries from the text as well, specifically the 22 September 2004 incident:

At 9:30 PM MST, a Delta Airlines B-737 aircraft (DAL 1025) was on final approach to Runway 35 at Salt Lake City (UT) International Airport at approximately 1,300 above ground level (AGL; 5,500 ft MSL), when a green laser light hit the Flight Deck. The First Officer (FO) was flying the aircraft at the time of the incident. Both Captain and FO saw the bright green light coming from the ground at the one to two o’clock position for a period of about 5 seconds. The Captain recognized the light as a laser and turned his eyes away while the FO did not. The FO landed the aircraft safely, but reported some loss of depth perception, causing him to flare too high. After the flight, the FO noticed blurring in his eyes. The next day his vision was more blurred. An ophthalmologist’s examination found retinal edema. The FO was unable to fly for about 3 weeks and remained sensitive to bright lights for some time.

It's not always accidental, either (29 December 2004):

At 5:35 PM EST a Cessna Citation, flying at approximately 2,500 AGL, was illuminated with a green laser near Rockaway, NJ, causing a temporary loss of vision for both the pilot and co-pilot, but they were able to safely land the plane. Two days later, one of the Cessna pilots joined federal agents in a police helicopter that was investigating the incident. The cockpit of the helicopter was illuminated with a laser light while flying in the vicinity of the previous illumination. The authorities were able to identify the location of the laser light, and an individual was arrested for both incidents. The suspect later plead guilty in court to interfering with the pilots of a passenger aircraft.

The main body of the report goes into much more detail about the adverse effects (both potential and documented) of laser pointers on the human eye and how they can be detrimental to normal aircraft operations, but I hope that the two examples I've already quoted are sufficient to demonstrate the point. Thankfully, none of the incidents detailed in that particular study resulted in accidents (much less fatal ones), but laser light incidents already can and do cause much more than "mild discomfort" to pilots quite frequently.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Specialist290
Miscellaneous typos and formatting fixes.

[Camacha]

Thankfully, none of the incidents detailed in that particular study resulted in accidents (much less fatal ones), but laser light incidents already can and do cause much more than "mild discomfort" to pilots quite frequently.

This is almost exactly what I said, though we appear to have rather different interpretations of quite frequently. Considering there is only one case of injury, which might very well have been temporary, it is safe to say that it is indeed a nuisance than a huge and direct danger. However, like you say, do something like that often enough and it will end up causing serious harm some day. I think I have stated enough that it is a foolish thing to do which adds risk to the situation, little need to repeat that over and over.

I am glad we agree