[WIP] - USI Life Support

[RoverDude]

Pretty much what the guy above me said

Support will remain, but it's going to be secondary to USI-LS support in my mods. I make this stuff for me first, you fine folks second.

[Van Disaster]

The only difference between them is the amount of time that a Kerbal can go without them, and that's still a pretty small difference.

Maybe it shouldn't be, which is a TAC balance issue ( and also eminently changeable in TAC setup ) - being able to go a couple of weeks without food would give a reasonable chance at resupply. If food lost quality over time as well ( fresh food from a greenhouse having higher "food quality" than algae from the oxygen recycler, for instance ) that would also make it worthwhile as a seperate resource, but unfortunately the penalties we have available for degraded quality currently are too limited to bother with resource qualities like that.

[RoverDude]

I expect if someone wants to add that level of complexity, a mod will emerge for that, but it won't be this mod

[tater]

I agree with roverdude completely on simplifying the resources to ONE as an aggregate representing all the consumables. It all boils down to how much additional mass is needed per person, per unit time. Period. Dealing with different wastes, etc, is needlessly complex. I think I'd prefer adding LS to the pods as the only change (instead of just the time limit), but that might just be me misunderstanding it---if I sent an empty pod to the surface of the mun, could a kerbal crash land nearby, then walk to it and have 15 more days LS?

Anyway, one possible addition might be to have tech tree variants between the sort of 100% recycle greenhouse and just more consumables, putting anything near 100% far out on the tree since in current KSP the end game is actually easier than early game. This might make the intermediate game more challenging. Mod looks very cool, roverdude, kudos.

This is why I was defaulting to Snacks! with my cfg altered to kill kerbals instead of the rep hit. I think I'm gonna use USI next time (though I might like a simplified OKS since I am not using karbonite right now (though with 1.0 this obviously changes ).

[klgraham1013]

Really excited to try this out.

[_Augustus_]

I'd like this, but I have a few suggestions:

1. Maybe make a fork of the PaladinLabs cryofreeze chamber? For those of us with planet packs or planet packs that add other stars, being able to freeze Kerbals for long journeys would be nice.

2. Possibly add Kerbal sanity and fitness. I want to see crazy fat Kerbals.

[Angelo Kerman]

This is nice. Less complicated than TAC, more in-depth than Snacks. If your Kerbals are on strike, will they sabotage a probe core on the same ship? I mean, if they're gonna get grumpy, I'd think they'd usurp the probe core's comm stream to play Massive Muliplayer Online games or something...

Edited April 3, 2015 by Angel-125

[RoverDude]

I agree with roverdude completely on simplifying the resources to ONE as an aggregate representing all the consumables. It all boils down to how much additional mass is needed per person, per unit time. Period. Dealing with different wastes, etc, is needlessly complex. I think I'd prefer adding LS to the pods as the only change (instead of just the time limit), but that might just be me misunderstanding it---if I sent an empty pod to the surface of the mun, could a kerbal crash land nearby, then walk to it and have 15 more days LS?

Anyway, one possible addition might be to have tech tree variants between the sort of 100% recycle greenhouse and just more consumables, putting anything near 100% far out on the tree since in current KSP the end game is actually easier than early game. This might make the intermediate game more challenging. Mod looks very cool, roverdude, kudos.

This is why I was defaulting to Snacks! with my cfg altered to kill kerbals instead of the rep hit. I think I'm gonna use USI next time (though I might like a simplified OKS since I am not using karbonite right now (though with 1.0 this obviously changes ).

Thanks, glad you dig the concept. RE your question - if a Kerbal walked up to a fresh pod, he would not get an extension. We're assuming that a Kerbal can go two weeks unsupplied, hence no resources on the pods. We'll see how it plays out if I have to change that, but right now I want to take the approach of being as uninvasive as possible.

Really excited to try this out.

Good deal

This is nice. Less complicated than TAC, more in-depth than Snacks. If your Kerbals are on strike, will they sabotage a probe core on the same ship? I mean, if they're gonna get grumpy, I'd think they'd usurp the probe core's comm stream to play Massive Muliplayer Online games or something...

Nope, so a legit tactic is to run them out there with a probe core controlling the ship. But no EVAs, no special bonuses, etc. - at that point they are just passengers.

[tater]

Thanks, glad you dig the concept. RE your question - if a Kerbal walked up to a fresh pod, he would not get an extension. We're assuming that a Kerbal can go two weeks unsupplied, hence no resources on the pods. We'll see how it plays out if I have to change that, but right now I want to take the approach of being as uninvasive as possible.

Given my Snacks! use, I do Duna missions as a sort of "Duna Direct," and send Hitchhiker habs ahead, for example (since my crews needs to stay alive until the return window). Strikes me that this would not work with USI, and I'd have to just send inline consumables?

Would it be possible to add consumable storage to the various Hab parts as an in-between option?

[RoverDude]

Yep you would just send a container. Tho you could do a MM config pretty easy tho to add some to a hitchhiker if so inclined

[tater]

Yeah, easy fix for me. Seems like a habitat module should have that as its entire purpose is really LS. How is a HH different from a kerbitat?

Edited April 3, 2015 by tater

[Jarin]

I like it! And the 90%/100% balance just means I need to have some substrate/water retrieval drones along with my refueling drones for my generation ship. Perfect.

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Options are always possible, but I want to keep things fairly consistent. I am also considering the default to just be 'meh, an EVA Kerbal can stay EVA forever till rescue'. Because it's not like they are going home anyway

The one thing I'd worry about (with automatically going home) is the edge case of what they do if their seat's been taken in the meantime.

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So wait... you can send a basically unlimited number of non-working passengers, regardless of length of trip? So your probe-cored ferry to Eeloo with 12 kerbals onboard can be entirely without supplies, as long as you've got supplies at the far end? Seems a tad awkward.

Ah well. I guess the death option is there for folks who don't like that balance.

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Aside- I am loving the forum feature that auto-appends further posts rather than doubleposting

[RoverDude]

So wait... you can send a basically unlimited number of non-working passengers, regardless of length of trip? So your probe-cored ferry to Eeloo with 12 kerbals onboard can be entirely without supplies, as long as you've got supplies at the far end? Seems a tad awkward.

Ah well. I guess the death option is there for folks who don't like that balance.

Kinda. And Kinda not.

You would have to have two ships, because on the brink of death/grumpiness the Kerbals are going to break open every biscuit tin in sight. And when you land them at that supply base, the first one in is going to break open said biscuit tin, and discard the rest out of the airlock. So you will have to have one sealed container per Kerbal, and then a completely separate supply ship after they ravage the first one.

(Side note, it's hilarious to watch in-game as the messages pop up).

[tater]

I think I'm still confused, lol.

So you launch a duna ship with 3 crew, and it contains inline consumable parts (I would personally add them to the HH part as well, since my ship would likely have 2 of those and a lab with 3 crew just for the transfer vehicle). Around 15 days, they start using the supplies, right? They consume these at some rate, though, right?

How would I know how much to bring for 2-3 years times 3 guys? Presumably each pod has some recovery percentage (you listed a few for the OKS parts) which generalized means that the supplies are mostly food by mass as air/water are recovered at some rate, and the eaten chow becomes "mulch," right (stop me if I'm totally off-track ).

I'm confused by the "is going to break open said biscuit tin, and discard the rest out of the airlock." statement. If I were to land next to already landed Habs, and walked my first crew over, would that one crew throw all the excess consumables away because I can only transfer 1 crew at a time? If I were to rescue a guy with a ship with 3 crew, but spaces for more, would there be supplies for the new, 4th guy, or would they have thrown those supplies away?

[Jarin]

You would have to have two ships, because on the brink of death/grumpiness the Kerbals are going to break open every biscuit tin in sight. And when you land them at that supply base, the first one in is going to break open said biscuit tin, and discard the rest out of the airlock. So you will have to have one sealed container per Kerbal, and then a completely separate supply ship after they ravage the first one.

Ha! I love it. Okay, that's the kind of kerbalized logistics I'm happy to plan around.

[RoverDude]

I think I'm still confused, lol.

So you launch a duna ship with 3 crew, and it contains inline consumable parts (I would personally add them to the HH part as well, since my ship would likely have 2 of those and a lab with 3 crew just for the transfer vehicle). Around 15 days, they start using the supplies, right? They consume these at some rate, though, right?

How would I know how much to bring for 2-3 years times 3 guys? Presumably each pod has some recovery percentage (you listed a few for the OKS parts) which generalized means that the supplies are mostly food by mass as air/water are recovered at some rate, and the eaten chow becomes "mulch," right (stop me if I'm totally off-track ).

I'm confused by the "is going to break open said biscuit tin, and discard the rest out of the airlock." statement. If I were to land next to already landed Habs, and walked my first crew over, would that one crew throw all the excess consumables away because I can only transfer 1 crew at a time? If I were to rescue a guy with a ship with 3 crew, but spaces for more, would there be supplies for the new, 4th guy, or would they have thrown those supplies away?

They start using the supplies immediately. Just that they can go 15 days without supplies before going on a ship-wide rampage.

If you had, let's say, the basic MKS/OKS pioneer module, you can count on getting 25% of that goodness recycled. But in general, if you're not using MKS/OKS or any other 'greenhouse' mod, assume you just pack the three years worth.

If you run out... well, you have a fifteen day grace period.

If that runs out, the Kerbal is going to look around the ship for any container you cleverly locked (using the right mouse button menu and explicitly locking that resource). The first Kerbal to find that stash will eat a meal, then the rest gets dumped. This is to prevent the situation were you just starve all of your kerbals and use a probe core to 'unlock' supplies at your destination.

Now, I suppose one could be clever and make tiny 1-supply packs and radially strap a zillion of these to a ship, but at that point you're just cheating anyway

Side note... if you were out of supplies and at the point where the Kerbals have ransacked your ship, they are already grouchy... they are not going to leave the ship as EVA is disabled.

[tygoo7]

This mod looks very promising! I will definitely download this once it's available!

[smjjames]

I wonder how you'll make it work with the generation ship idea you've talked about. Instead of months, you'd have decades, maybe even centuries before the supply ship caught up with you. Heck, that's even if it CAN catch up with you before you arrive at your destination.

[RoverDude]

Said generation ship would have to stop periodically and grab raw materials.

[Jarin]

Now, I suppose one could be clever and make tiny 1-supply packs and radially strap a zillion of these to a ship, but at that point you're just cheating anyway

I call that "clever use of mechanics" thank you very much. HMPH!

[smjjames]

Said generation ship would have to stop periodically and grab raw materials.

What if you're halfway between the stars? Deep in interstellar space, light years from the nearest system?

In the mods which add multiple star systems, are the distances between them measured in a great many light years or...? Just wondering there.

[RoverDude]

Then take bigger containers.

You're citing a lot of what are, at the end of the day, just planning and design issues.

[Errol]

You could bring an asteroid to harvest from en route.....

[BinaryBad]

I'm pretty intrigued by this. Playing with Other life support mods, I found, didn't add fun, just stress and guilt. I'm happier with the idea of my Kerbals downing tools and not co-operating, till the biscuit ship arrives.

It it would be cool if, on a landing, Kerbals went a bit stir crazy and wandered off. So that you'd have to rescue them. Or figure out where they went. Not sure how easy it would be to do though.

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Actually, rounding that thought out more, after a point you could make all your Kerbals EVA and just start walking in a random direction. The longer you leave it till rescue, the further away your Kerbal may have trudged. (I think I'm inspired by the Werner Herzog YouTube clip about the suicidal/mad penguins.)

[Serino]

I have played with TAC-LS since it first came out and love the crap out of it. This is the first time another LS mod has actually got me interested, maybe cause I use so much USI stuff that having a mod for it is exciting. One thing that gets me is that you have made it so an orbital colony can never be 100% self sufficient. Personally I feel that very late in the tech tree, like an end node or something, Kerbals would have found a way to be 100% self-sufficient since we as humans already have an idea on it.

I do have a legitimate question though. Is the conversion of supplies to mulch going to be 1 to 1 or will it be less forcing us to still make supply runs, albeit super infrequently?