Resource discussion?

[pincushionman]

Having fuel available for the return doesn't make it "too easy" - it makes it easy if you planned ahead and sent a fuel operation there ahead of time. Is it "too easy" to also send a payload of full orange tanks to your target orbit and top off using that method?

A fuel mine on Eloo won't make sense if you're only going there once. An extra tank put up at Jool won't make sense if you can put a miner on one of the moons. It's all a balance of effort required and ROI.

[tater]

I'm hoping it's going to be at the very end of the tech tree.

This is where the terrible nature of tech and KSP enters the fray, IMO. I'd much rather see a complex tech tree that doesn't unlock with science only, or science and Funds, but one where certain tech requires specific science missions be done.

I'd prefer to see ISRU (is this doable via a mod, Roverdude?) such that certain bodies require different ISRU hardware. Then require specific mission types (specific science) be done to unlock them. Munar ISRU? Sample return is required so they know what they have to work with. If ISRU is going to get oxygen and hydrogen, then same return from the areas where such resources exist. Duna? Same thing, atmospheric data if it is using the atmosphere, and soil samples if it is drilling. Not that sample return might noit be required with a better science system. Require 150 points of soil science points from the body (or whatever), so you could broadcast, but you'd need to land more probes than a single sample return mission might buy you).

[lazarus1024]

Okay, awesome. I can't really view the SQUADcasts, so that is probably why I missed it.

For me I love the potential the most for "go there and stay" missions. Sure, I love making big'um rockets and ships, but if I can make it a lot smaller, I'd love to do that too.

A full jool system exploration is a lot easier if you can plunk down a mining and refining operation somewhere to refuel your ships with, especially for the return journey to KSC.

Also, especially if asteroids now have extractable resources, it gives asteroid capture something meaningful. Tow a modest sized one back to Kerbal orbit for a refueling station instead of having to haul loads of fuel up to it from the surface. I mean, yes, it saves some money to refuel a station, to then fuel up/refuel a ship for a mission, but it is also a fair amount of extra hassle. Same with dropping off any extra fuel at a station on a return journey.

You can skip those steps (within reason) if you can just haul an asteroid in to orbit and mine it there. For big missions, you can load up all your fuel in orbit then and skimp on your launcher for your ship, saving money. It also makes it much cheaper to refuel re-usable ships in orbit. If all I need to do for my reusable ship is to send a new lander/re-entry module up to it and attach it at the refueling station, then load up on fuel from the station that was mined from an asteroid, that is a LOT cheaper than having to send up a lander/re-entry module AND fuel. Both in time and in cost.

- - - Updated - - -

Life support would be interesting, but hopefully it would be toggleable.

This. I also hope that it can be "complex". I am kind of hoping, at least in the long run, for more than simply "Oxygen" that is supplied from "Oxygen tanks" that can maybe be mined and refined somewhere. Hopefully there can be "upgrades", like "air recyclers" which use power in exchange for reducing oxygen use or something. Or hydro/aeroponics which can infinitely recycle "oxygen".

And speaking of, it would be neat to have water/food as resources too at some point.

However, I think each level of consumable life support should be togglable as an option (yes/no to air, water and food being required). Probably also be able to toggle a yes/no for is life support consumed if the current game focus is not on the ship (IE if not focused on the ship, no life support is consumed). Yes, this means you can cheat by switching focus away and then back once you've time warped somewhere. However, if you allow it to be toggled off entirely anyway, it isn't really cheating. It is a good way to keep from accidently killing all your kerbals in other ships if you forget about them.

[Xavven]

I was just about to post the same idea in Suggestion And Development subforum, but I trust there are people in the Squad HQ who consider it already. Though not with gold and platinum. "The Ore" would be enough.

I just found a thread there: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/112996-What-about-mining-expensive-resources

Looks like a lot of people have this idea. Hm... gold isn't really that rare on Earth, so it wouldn't be my first go-to. But, on the other hand, it's instantly recognizable as "something that's valuable" so it might be better from a game perspective compared to iridium or Rhodium. And, who's to say gold isn't far more rare on Kerbin than on Earth?

Iridium costs $580 per troy ounce. There are 32,151 troy ounces in a metric tonne, so $580 x 32151= $18,647,580. There's a thread estimating that one fund = $4, so $18,647,580 / 4 = 4,661,895 Funds. It sounds reasonable that I could do a mission to return 1 ton of iridium from Tylo for less than that if I did a little roving around. And Rhodium sells for twice that of iridium because it has more industrial and commercial uses.

[lazarus1024]

I just found a thread there: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/112996-What-about-mining-expensive-resources

Looks like a lot of people have this idea. Hm... gold isn't really that rare on Earth, so it wouldn't be my first go-to. But, on the other hand, it's instantly recognizable as "something that's valuable" so it might be better from a game perspective compared to iridium or Rhodium. And, who's to say gold isn't far more rare on Kerbin than on Earth?

Iridium costs $580 per troy ounce. There are 32,151 troy ounces in a metric tonne, so $580 x 32151= $18,647,580. There's a thread estimating that one fund = $4, so $18,647,580 / 4 = 4,661,895 Funds. It sounds reasonable that I could do a mission to return 1 ton of iridium from Tylo for less than that if I did a little roving around. And Rhodium sells for twice that of iridium because it has more industrial and commercial uses.

It would be interesting at some point, as an option (or required?) if there are some resource you MUST extract elsewhere and return them so that you can use them.

One of my thoughts is that the NERVA engines and RTGs required extracting nuclear material elsewhere and returning it. So maybe a NERVA requires .5t of "nuclear material" and an RTG requires .05t. Well, you get zero of it on Kerbin, so off you go to find some if you want to power NERVA rockets or RTGs.

Maybe one of your first missions to the Mun is to grab half a ton of the stuff to return to KSC so that you can build your first NERVA to go off to Jool or something. Also gives more reason to make reusable ships, if you have to mine and return specialized resources to be able to make some of the parts.

I wouldn't make this terribly complex with dozens of resources that you have to mine just so you can build X part, but I do think it would be fun if there were 1-3 resources you had to mine and return to Kerbin if you wanted to build a small number of "advanced" parts. Like NERVA, RTGs, maybe Xenon has to be mined and returned from elsewhere. Maybe there will be a more advanced propulsion system/power plant at some point, like actual fission reactor that also needs nuclear material returned (and maybe also uses it, in very tiny quantities, like 1% per month or something). Maybe "exotics", like "Rare Earth metals" is something you have to find, and that is what Xenon thrusters need to operate. Maybe it is also used in something advanced like a VASMIR.

I don't think we'd want to go too overboard with it, but I do feel like it could be a fun game play mechanic if you keep it in check, but make it meaningful too.

[Xavven]

Also, especially if asteroids now have extractable resources, it gives asteroid capture something meaningful. Tow a modest sized one back to Kerbal orbit for a refueling station instead of having to haul loads of fuel up to it from the surface. I mean, yes, it saves some money to refuel a station, to then fuel up/refuel a ship for a mission, but it is also a fair amount of extra hassle. Same with dropping off any extra fuel at a station on a return journey.

You can skip those steps (within reason) if you can just haul an asteroid in to orbit and mine it there. For big missions, you can load up all your fuel in orbit then and skimp on your launcher for your ship, saving money. It also makes it much cheaper to refuel re-usable ships in orbit. If all I need to do for my reusable ship is to send a new lander/re-entry module up to it and attach it at the refueling station, then load up on fuel from the station that was mined from an asteroid, that is a LOT cheaper than having to send up a lander/re-entry module AND fuel. Both in time and in cost.

Wow, great idea! I'm going to do this in my first save when 1.0 launches. I could put my own fuel station up, but that's a lot to send up the gravity well. It might be cheaper to put an asteroid in orbit. Thanks for sharing!

[Windspren]

I'm just wondering how Karbonite will be impacted. Will it use the stock resource system? Will it have a line of code to disable the stock system? I assume it will stay as a mod, for all of the additional features. Karbonite could easily be integrated by being a module manager patch to change "Ore" to Karbonite; with the parts included in a folder.

I would like to hear from RoverDude on what his plans are for the future of Karbonite and K+.

[Xavven]

This is where the terrible nature of tech and KSP enters the fray, IMO. I'd much rather see a complex tech tree that doesn't unlock with science only, or science and Funds, but one where certain tech requires specific science missions be done.

I'd prefer to see ISRU (is this doable via a mod, Roverdude?) such that certain bodies require different ISRU hardware. Then require specific mission types (specific science) be done to unlock them. Munar ISRU? Sample return is required so they know what they have to work with. If ISRU is going to get oxygen and hydrogen, then same return from the areas where such resources exist. Duna? Same thing, atmospheric data if it is using the atmosphere, and soil samples if it is drilling. Not that sample return might noit be required with a better science system. Require 150 points of soil science points from the body (or whatever), so you could broadcast, but you'd need to land more probes than a single sample return mission might buy you).

I like the idea from a gameplay perspective of having to do a sample return before you can mine. Or at least some kind of transmit before you can mine-- for example, we know the atmospheric composition of Mars, and that we can manufacture methane rocket fuel from it if we bring the hydrogen, yet we have not actually returned an air sample.

It would be interesting at some point, as an option (or required?) if there are some resource you MUST extract elsewhere and return them so that you can use them.

One of my thoughts is that the NERVA engines and RTGs required extracting nuclear material elsewhere and returning it. So maybe a NERVA requires .5t of "nuclear material" and an RTG requires .05t. Well, you get zero of it on Kerbin, so off you go to find some if you want to power NERVA rockets or RTGs.

Maybe one of your first missions to the Mun is to grab half a ton of the stuff to return to KSC so that you can build your first NERVA to go off to Jool or something. Also gives more reason to make reusable ships, if you have to mine and return specialized resources to be able to make some of the parts.

I wouldn't make this terribly complex with dozens of resources that you have to mine just so you can build X part, but I do think it would be fun if there were 1-3 resources you had to mine and return to Kerbin if you wanted to build a small number of "advanced" parts. Like NERVA, RTGs, maybe Xenon has to be mined and returned from elsewhere. Maybe there will be a more advanced propulsion system/power plant at some point, like actual fission reactor that also needs nuclear material returned (and maybe also uses it, in very tiny quantities, like 1% per month or something). Maybe "exotics", like "Rare Earth metals" is something you have to find, and that is what Xenon thrusters need to operate. Maybe it is also used in something advanced like a VASMIR.

I don't think we'd want to go too overboard with it, but I do feel like it could be a fun game play mechanic if you keep it in check, but make it meaningful too.

A lot of great ideas coming out of this thread. I could totally get behind an advanced fusion engine (better than the LV-N) that required mining Helium-3 from the Mun.

[Zucal]

I share a similar opinion to r4ptor- I think being able to instantly refuel at the destination will make things less challenging. (Tylo landings, anyone?) The way I can see it working best is if it needs long, long times (similar to real-life ISRU) to process into fuel, and requires a buttload of infrastructure. This makes sure that it's not a gas n' go to make the game easier, but it would reward building up infrastructure like bases, stations, outposts. If it takes a long time and a lot of processing parts, then it's still worth it to have designs that don't require refueling, to meet contracts with time limits, to not have as many life support restrictions (if you have those mods).

[Bloody_looser]

Though I'm not a fan of the whole ISRU thing and have an opinion of it similar to r4ptor's, I don't oppose its implementation.

Yes, I've tried both major resource mods.

Kethanish style is - slap a drill to any awful inefficient craft and limp drill your way to Jool. I don't like this one.

Karbonitish approach is kinda different. Mining parts are really heavy and bulky, and are more suitable for some permanent structures. Though, if you're some kind of a fa ehm... keen driller, you can haul all that stuff all the way there and even back. Since it's RoverDude, who makes stock ISRU, I hope for more Karbonitish style. Anyway, I'll build permanent refuelling facilities, so anything will do.

The only thing I strongly dislike about such stuff: magic engines running solely on extractable unrefined resource. That's nonsense. If we get some kind of such engine - well, my pitchfork is all sharp and shiny.

[RoverDude]

I'm just wondering how Karbonite will be impacted. Will it use the stock resource system? Will it have a line of code to disable the stock system? I assume it will stay as a mod, for all of the additional features. Karbonite could easily be integrated by being a module manager patch to change "Ore" to Karbonite; with the parts included in a folder.

I would like to hear from RoverDude on what his plans are for the future of Karbonite and K+.

Karbonite and K+ (and really, all of my mods) will move to the stock resource system (since it's highly moddable) but will not touch stock resources.

[SkyRender]

If Karbonite (which the resource system in KSP is being based off of) is any indicator, "instantly refuel" is way too strong a term. There will be some serious logistics involved in planning any sort of refueling system, and it will take quite some time to extract and refine that matter into fuel. Even if they do implement a mining-in-background system (something that basically no ISRU mod does at the moment due to the limitations of KSP), it would still take a long time to get an extraction system going. Also, the mining equipment will assuredly be top-tier on the tech tree. ISRU actually adds a lot to gameplay and does not really make the game "easier" at all; just different in focus once you start using it.

[impyre]

I have to speak up here. I trust Roverdude to implement a balanced and wonderfully Kerbal solution. Apparently, so do the devs. (...yes, I'm a fanboi... wanna fight about it? ) But in all seriousness, ISRU is not unrealistic (for those of you who tout realism)... and it *can* be fun (for those who may say that realism and fun are mutually exclusive). In fact, a planned mars mission used on-site production of oxygen to reduce fuel and life-support costs for the trip there. It's not impossible to find the raw materials needed to make rocket fuel on other planets. The issue here is how much money does it save you? This has to consider the cost of lifting up said refining/collecting equipment and landing it on a distant planet. That's not cheap, and the *real* reason to do it is because you intend to use it more than once. This said, if you are only planning a single mission, forgo the extra weight of ISRU equipment (you'll save time, fuel, money, and potential mishaps [like dropping your mining unit on its head and being unable to return])... but if you're planning multiple missions, or an extensive on-site campaign with multiple objectives... perhaps it will be worthwhile. Seems like it may take some thought and will *not* be just another "make it easier" patch. Of course this all depends on implementation, but as I said at the beginning of my post... I have faith in these guys.

[RoverDude]

Even if they do implement a mining-in-background system (something that basically no ISRU mod does at the moment due to the limitations of KSP),

Actually Karbonite (Regolith) already simulates this (yes, it's a 'catch up delta time' approach, but works well). Side note - the rub with actual background processing is handling the lag when it starts to scale (I have seen multiple cases of people having... I kid you not... over 100 drills and/or resource converters on a single ship).

[Admac]

ISRU opens up a lot of interesting challenges and requirements. I typically have 10+ major infrastructure projects in the Kerbin System (Fuel stations, mining stations, boost tankers, shipyards etc) all of which are unique challenges and have gone over a lot of revisions to get to the point they work well and are helpful. It's also great how planetary systems go from scary and alien to comfortable and homelike once you have a refueling station, some surface mines, a mobile tanker, and some scanning satellites up.

I can totally empathize with the 100 drill players, since the current bottleneck is the actual extraction, and adding more drills are the only way to bypass that (Assuming you are already sitting on a good patch of ground)

As a compromise between efficiency and realism I usually only bring six of each of the three drill types. Having 100 drills would have a lot of perks, since there is no shortage of EC and I end up waiting for extraction.

The ways past it that stand out is to either cap the extraction to 1-2 drills (IRL they don't put 100 oil derricks side by side to get 100x oil productions), allow heavier operations to be set up (50 ton mining parts?), or move the bottle neck to refining, so you need a lot of kerbals on site to make massive mines work, with all the infrastructure that requires.

Savvy players that are in a rush could just code a MM patch to make the drills 50x heavier and 50x more efficient, same effect and save on frame rates.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Admac

[tseitsei]

IMO what we need is:

1. Life support system that needs oxygen, food and water to keep your kerbals alive (toggleable ofcourse)

2. A way to make a self sustaining base/colony but that should NOT be easy at all. That should need proper planning and choosing a good spot and a massive infrastructure there to mine/haul/refine and transport all needed materials to the base. So a way to somehow generate oxygen, food, water and also refine some fuel on the spot.

[Robotengineer]

How will the new resource system be moddable? Will it be like contracts? Or .cfg files? Or something more difficult to mod?

[regex]

How will the new resource system be moddable? Will it be like contracts? Or .cfg files? Or something more difficult to mod?

It'll be config files if Regolith/Karbonite is any indication. if not, hooking into KSP with a dll to make it cfg-able should be fairly easy.

[RW-1]

IMO what we need is:

1. Life support system that needs oxygen, food and water to keep your kerbals alive (toggleable ofcourse)

2. A way to make a self sustaining base/colony but that should NOT be easy at all. That should need proper planning and choosing a good spot and a massive infrastructure there to mine/haul/refine and transport all needed materials to the base. So a way to somehow generate oxygen, food, water and also refine some fuel on the spot.

1. I agree with this, but knowing the masses, we would be condoning mass murder of many many Kerbals due to misallocation of supplies

"Nothing like landing on Laythe and forgetting the ore to O2 Converter Jeb!"

Ooh, that would bring to mind the next step after resources - Terraforming.

Laythe to a breathable atmosphere, yes, you would have to have squad really up the warping to see it happen hehehe.....

[Vanamonde]

Maybe I've missed it, but has SQUAD said yet how resources are going to work and/or confirmed 1.0 will have them?

Yes, you have missed it. Check out the official threads, like this one.

[-RanZ-]

I am curious if 'ore' will store in fuel tanks or if there is a new storage container for it

[Brotoro]

I am curious if 'ore' will store in fuel tanks or if there is a new storage container for it

You've made me picture rocks tumbling into my liquid fuel tanks...and this makes me cringe.

[SelectHalfling0]

Will ore be the final name or is that just what they are referring to it at this point? I would hope they would come up with something more creative like "Kelium (3)"

[Robotengineer]

Will ore be the final name or is that just what they are referring to it at this point? I would hope they would come up with something more creative like "Kelium (3)"

I think it's final. Bland, but better than another faux mineral with a K.

[Technical Ben]

the challenge is getting from kerbin to XXXXXX and back. nothing will make that easier than being able to fuel up at your destination. Also with current tech it is still impractical/ and a bit less than feasible.

But maybe I am an oddball, I am also vehemently against adding dv counters too, among other things that probably would upset people if I said them here lol.

It will allow you to continue playing after launch (of rocket, not 1.0 ) though. Which is nice. Without "ore" you will have to send another rocket to fly and/or refuel the first. This is fine for roleplay/game mechanics. But we do get to the point (both in gameplay and RL) where you go "I just want to refuel some how at the destination". Not always to lower launch costs because you can just bring more fuel, but because having "enough fuel as long as you wait longer" means you get to stay at the destination longer.

So players can spend more time visiting Jool, and less time sending more fuel/rockets. Permanent bases can be used, and not just temporary ones. Thinks like Dunas lower gravity and atmosphere makes it a good staging for Jool (but only really if we get other planet VABS too).