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KasperVld

About recent community criticism in the direction of the QA & exp testers

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1.0 has happened. Let's all move on, and look forward to the future. Yes, mistakes were made. Yes, there are bugs. But it's 1.0. Too late to do anything about it.

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Meh. This thread is probably not going anywhere. It seems clear that we aren't going to get through. I'm already losing interest in KSP anyway. After who knows how many hundreds of hours playing I'm tired of being an alpha tester, I was hyped for 1.0 because I really wanted to stop messing around and start a real campaign, one saved game with everything in it, a game that would go on for years and just get better and better over time. But its clear that 1.0 was just another beta...and that we are still in beta and still waiting for this to be a finished game.

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It's not like Squad has closed the doors and moved on to other interests. They are committed to continuing development aren't they? Even with the hiccups and warts, I have continued to play KSP. Until the "next best thing" comes along, there just hasn't been any "next best thing" worth playing that has kept my interest as long as KSP.

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The other thing to remember is that the devs are basically on vacation this week, we probably won't hear much from them until at least after that.

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Until the "next best thing" comes along, there just hasn't been any "next best thing" worth playing that has kept my interest as long as KSP.

True enough. KSP was the "next best thing" that made me drop minecraft after years of playing. Actually, it was Simple Rockets on my iPad that started it all, I got obsessed with that game and it had an ad for KSP right in the main menu.

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Read the last two pages, decided my thoughts were necessary again.

Here's what I see: There isn't really a small group of very hostile people as there are a very large quantity of moderately peeved people. That latter case is a heck of a lot harder to deal with as mods because you can't just shut them down as flamers, and there's way too many to shut down. I can understand the mod team going into firefighting mode (mods, yall's last few posts are definitely firefighting mode whether you're intending to or not). Back when 1.0 was announced, I made the prediction the lack of proper beta cycle would cause a buggy update that would flop. I think spaceplanes being near impossible, lead alone viable, for several days counts as a flop.

Warning: bluntness

I think Squad had this coming, I think they deserve it, and I think they need it. I don't ever recall an update ever receiving any kind of overall negative response. 1.0 garnered a good bit of it. Squad might just need a bit of a kick in the pants. Everyone learns by criticism and I think they might need a bit of a fire lit under them. I can understand why, reading through this, the mod team is reacting as they are. They're watching a community which holds their devs in the utmost light turn around and light a fire under them. If I were a mod, I'd be panicking too. But truth be told, I think Squad needs to be confronted with this, a large fraction of the community dissatisfied with the 1.0 release. I'd then hope they take that criticism in stride and learn from it. 1.0 came, and its a thing. It's a great update, but it was NOT ready to be the gold release. I believed that on announcement, and I believe it now.

TL;DR I think Squad jumped the gun, and they need to deal with the fire from it. I think some constructive criticism/tough love might do them some good and I hope they take it in stride. And I most certainly know that what's done is done and we ALL need to move on.

EDIT: Another thing I forgot to mention above.

I think its equally important for us as community members and players to remember that HarvesteR and the rest of the devs at Squad are still mere mortal men, not the gods of sandbox game design we sometimes make them out to be. They can make mistakes, and while we can and will criticize them for it, its unfair of us to judge them as if they never make mistakes. Crap like this happens. There is an appropriate limit to how much you can hound Squad for the screw up. We're about at that threshold. We all need to turn the dial back a hair, wait for Squad to get back in the office after their hard earned week off, and then deal with the bonfire we built for them.

They aren't perfect, this shows that. We can be critical, but the more constructive we are, the easier it is for them to fix the issues we have and move on.

Edited by Captain Sierra

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I'm guessing you either were not here for or forgot the 0.19 release, Captain Sierra. There was about as much bellyaching and complaining then as there is now from about as many people (relatively speaking; obviously KSP's audience has grown considerably since then).

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Read the last two pages, decided my thoughts were necessary again.

Here's what I see: There isn't really a small group of very hostile people as there are a very large quantity of moderately peeved people. That latter case is a heck of a lot harder to deal with as mods because you can't just shut them down as flamers, and there's way too many to shut down. I can understand the mod team going into firefighting mode (mods, yall's last few posts are definitely firefighting mode whether you're intending to or not). Back when 1.0 was announced, I made the prediction the lack of proper beta cycle would cause a buggy update that would flop. I think spaceplanes being near impossible, lead alone viable, for several days counts as a flop.

Warning: bluntness

I think Squad had this coming, I think they deserve it, and I think they need it. I don't ever recall an update ever receiving any kind of overall negative response. 1.0 garnered a good bit of it. Squad might just need a bit of a kick in the pants. Everyone learns by criticism and I think they might need a bit of a fire lit under them. I can understand why, reading through this, the mod team is reacting as they are. They're watching a community which holds their devs in the utmost light turn around and light a fire under them. If I were a mod, I'd be panicking too. But truth be told, I think Squad needs to be confronted with this, a large fraction of the community dissatisfied with the 1.0 release. I'd then hope they take that criticism in stride and learn from it. 1.0 came, and its a thing. It's a great update, but it was NOT ready to be the gold release. I believed that on announcement, and I believe it now.

TL;DR I think Squad jumped the gun, and they need to deal with the fire from it. I think some constructive criticism/tough love might do them some good and I hope they take it in stride. And I most certainly know that what's done is done and we ALL need to move on.

that's a nice theory except that so far there's nothing that shows SQUAD believed they made a mistake to start with. continued disengagement only makes me fear further.

the fact that there are save-breaking changes so close to release (and yes, in a spaceship building game, if a minor post-release patch breaks its ability to get to space, that's a save-breaking change), and that there are people (mainly mods, it seems) defending this (indeed, even spinning as a positive re: squad reaction time... lol) alienates me.

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Professionals are expected to deal with criticism however it comes.

Firstly, the testing and QA people are not professionals. They are volunteers. Since you're not paying them, the least you could do is show them a little gratitude and courtesy for their volunteered efforts. Secondly, they are human beings, and they will have emotional reactions to what is said to and about them. The question for you is, will you say, "They should be able to handle this, therefore I'm going to continue to express myself in a counter-productive way," or will you say, "I will be polite because it has a better chance of getting me what I want"? Even if you do not care about their feelings, it would be smarter for you to use the approach that works better. Politeness is in your own best interests.

It's incredible the lengths you go to convince yourself that everything about this game's design process is working as intended.

No one said the system is perfect or couldn't be improved. The subject of this thread is that the testers are due some courtesy for the volunteered efforts. Really, it is. Go back and check, if you don't believe me. But the problem is that posters in this thread are almost universally determined to ignore the actual subject of the thread, and just repeat the same complaints and accusations already posted in many other threads. If our replies to these complaints do not seem on-topic to you, it's because we are talking about the subject of the thread, and you are not.

Look at the first line of that post of Sal_vager's you quoted.

There have been many threads and many posts these last few days that have done little more than attack the guys and girls who have volunteered their time to test KSP so all of the rest of us can enjoy a playable game.

He is not saying the game is without flaws, and he is not saying the system can't be improved. He is imploring people not to insult and demean the volunteer testers. Because that is the topic of this thread.

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Firstly, the testing and QA people are not professionals. They are volunteers. Since you're not paying them, the least you could do is show them a little gratitude and courtesy for their volunteered efforts. Secondly, they are human beings, and they will have emotional reactions to what is said to and about them. The question for you is, will you say, "They should be able to handle this, therefore I'm going to continue to express myself in a counter-productive way," or will you say, "I will be polite because it has a better chance of getting me what I want"? Even if you do not care about their feelings, it would be smarter for you to use the approach that works better. Politeness is in your own best interests.

I'm not talking about the QA people, I'm talking about SQUAD.

Furthermore while I generally agree with you re: politeness my observation thusfar is that SQUAD seems to mostly respond to people raising a stink, not politely making requests.

No one said the system is perfect or couldn't be improved. The subject of this thread is that the testers are due some courtesy for the volunteered efforts. Really, it is. Go back and check, if you don't believe me. But the problem is that posters in this thread are almost universally determined to ignore the actual subject of the thread, and just repeat the same complaints and accusations already posted in many other threads. If our replies to these complaints do not seem on-topic to you, it's because we are talking about the subject of the thread, and you are not.

The entire subject of the thread is a ridiculous strawman to prop up the notion that criticism of 1.0 was somehow mostly rooted in mistaken rage at QA. Any fair read of the situation shows otherwise. Since the premise of the thread itself is absurd to a lot (most?) of us we decided to talk about the actual problem at the root of this alleged hatred of QA people.

Look at the first line of that post of Sal_vager's you quoted.

He is not saying the game is without flaws, and he is not saying the system can't be improved. He is imploring people not to insult and demean the volunteer testers. Because that is the topic of this thread.

Maybe you should actually look at his post. I am specifically responding to such ridiculous reductions like when he implies the problem with aero is entirely due to people being somehow irrationally attached to their own vision, as opposed to fact that it was RELEASED POORLY TESTED.

to wit -

Now with 1.0 aero we're seeing two things, first, it is not accurate enough for some and they complain, missing the point as they have done so since the beginning that KSP will not be as accurate as they want it to be.

Second, it is very different to .90, it has changed so many things, many .90 craft are no longer tenable, everything from reaching orbit to landing to basic vessel design is changed, this came as a big shock to many and some don't want to adjust.

Hey if you have a problem with us straying from the topic maybe the mods shouldn't do it either since all I was doing was responding to specific comments that your colleague made. But hey I guess the best way to call for more civility in the community is to call them "disgusting," that's certainly in line with your lecture about counterproductive expression of ideas.

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I'm guessing you either were not here for or forgot the 0.19 release, Captain Sierra. There was about as much bellyaching and complaining then as there is now from about as many people (relatively speaking; obviously KSP's audience has grown considerably since then).

No, I bought this game in 0.20.2. I was not here for whatever fiasco that 0.19 was. What, specifically, was the 0.19 release in terms of features?

that's a nice theory except that so far there's nothing that shows SQUAD believed they made a mistake to start with. continued disengagement only makes me fear further.

the fact that there are save-breaking changes so close to release (and yes, in a spaceship building game, if a minor post-release patch breaks its ability to get to space, that's a save-breaking change), and that there are people (mainly mods, it seems) defending this (indeed, even spinning as a positive re: squad reaction time... lol) alienates me.

The entire dev team is still on break after 1.0. Presuming the mod staff does not actively try to shield them from this (which I don't believe our mod staff is petty enough to do), they'll catch on. ALso, they might not publicly admit to their forum community that they screwed up. It doesn't change the fact that they're aware of it and the proof will be in both the 1.0.3 fix and the 1.1 patch.

Firstly, the testing and QA people are not professionals. They are volunteers. Since you're not paying them, the least you could do is show them a little gratitude and courtesy for their volunteered efforts. Secondly, they are human beings, and they will have emotional reactions to what is said to and about them. The question for you is, will you say, "They should be able to handle this, therefore I'm going to continue to express myself in a counter-productive way," or will you say, "I will be polite because it has a better chance of getting me what I want"? Even if you do not care about their feelings, it would be smarter for you to use the approach that works better. Politeness is in your own best interests.

No one said the system is perfect or couldn't be improved. The subject of this thread is that the testers are due some courtesy for the volunteered efforts. Really, it is. Go back and check, if you don't believe me. But the problem is that posters in this thread are almost universally determined to ignore the actual subject of the thread, and just repeat the same complaints and accusations already posted in many other threads. If our replies to these complaints do not seem on-topic to you, it's because we are talking about the subject of the thread, and you are not.

Look at the first line of that post of Sal_vager's you quoted.

He is not saying the game is without flaws, and he is not saying the system can't be improved. He is imploring people not to insult and demean the volunteer testers. Because that is the topic of this thread.

I looked for this bashing of testers and what I found was a small (yet scathing) minority. Generally speaking, of all of us displeased with how 1.0 was handled, the vast majority of us are not assigning blame to the Q&A teams. We're assigning blame on the lack of a proper beta cycle due to rushed release schedule. the Q&A & Experimentals teams were the only groups who GOT a beta cycle, so blame falling on them is due to this small group not understanding the facts.

The discussion has shifted towards the frustration over the development cycle because THAT is the root cause of the problem Kasper is addressing in the OP. Discussing the root cause of the issue which spawned this thread I feel is not out of scope at all.

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I'm not talking about the QA people, I'm talking about SQUAD.

Then do not post in a thread that is about the testing and QA team, as this one is.

The entire subject of the thread is a ridiculous strawman to prop up the notion that criticism of 1.0 was somehow mostly rooted in mistaken rage at QA.

This is your opinion. It does not entitle you to diverge from the topic.

However, since this thread absolutely refuses to stay on-topic, it's time to put an end to it.

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