[1.12.x] Cryogenic Engines: Liquid Hydrogen and Methane Rockets! (Jan 22, 2022)

billkerbinsky · May 21, 2015

Anyways, looking into updating this and I realized that I've completely set up the RL-10 (chelyabinsk) for its extensible nozzle animation without really much extra work. Is it worth doing this for the vanilla version? Originally the plan was only to do this for the RO version, but it looks like it'll be relatively trivial. It's kinda cool...

Indeed. I was wondering about that since you showed a preview with the nozzle extension stowed. If you've already done most of the work I think it's worth it just for the more compact interstage you get with the nozzle extension stowed.

riocrokite · May 21, 2015

I wouldn't say they're that overpowered Analysis in the thread indicates some downsides .
Anyways, looking into updating this and I realized that I've completely set up the RL-10 (chelyabinsk) for its extensible nozzle animation without really much extra work. Is it worth doing this for the vanilla version? Originally the plan was only to do this for the RO version, but it looks like it'll be relatively trivial. It's kinda cool...

yes please

also I love their names and yah higher isp is offset by heavier tanks required for LH2

Nertea · May 21, 2015

Yeah, I just did it and it looks great IMO. Minimal work.

Update work proceeded well today. I've tuned the Tunguska and the Volcano, the former to move it more towards a Skipper and the latter got a bit heavier with a slightly worse Isp. I've also fixed the fuel switch config to work correctly and not create free space. As a cue from igor's config earlier, it now will check to make sure there isn't already an FSFuelSwitch module there and won't apply to parts with integrated engines. Additionally, it'll target the large amount of orbital cryo tanks that I'll be releasing with NFT 0.50+. These have great mass ratios and high capacities, but are fragile and very poor at resisting heat. They should make excellent orbital storage, as intended, but don't use them for aerobraking or launch vehicles .

Finally, I've also packaged the MFT and PP configs found in this thread, with noted credit of course.

Does that about sum up the bugs that needed to be fixed?

By the way, this pack looks very nice with the Engine Light mod. I highly recommend . I may also spend some time providing configs to adjust the colour of the light created in a couple of cases to match the engine effects.

cipherpunks · May 21, 2015

Just saw that, according to RCSBuildAid, Yucatan has 0.002kNm sideways torque. Odin has 0.001kNm. Mars has 0.003.

Yeah, did only VAB test, not actual flight-test, but was suspicious because this kind of sideways torque had bitten me earlier in flights.

rasta013 · May 21, 2015

Just saw that, according to RCSBuildAid, Yucatan has 0.002kNm sideways torque. Odin has 0.001kNm. Mars has 0.003.
Yeah, did only VAB test, not actual flight-test, but was suspicious because this kind of sideways torque had bitten me earlier in flights.

I also haven't done any specific testing but I have noticed that with the Yucatan and Mars in particular that I get some sideslip that I'm not expecting and have put it off in the past to the new aero model and still getting used to tweaking my designs. It still could be that but I have noticed it repeatedly and this could help explain it. The sideslip is never much but is just enough to note that it happens especially when watching my readouts closely under VOID.

Captain Sierra · May 22, 2015

Just saw that, according to RCSBuildAid, Yucatan has 0.002kNm sideways torque. Odin has 0.001kNm. Mars has 0.003.
Yeah, did only VAB test, not actual flight-test, but was suspicious because this kind of sideways torque had bitten me earlier in flights.

I've never had an issue with any of my launch vehicles.

Yeah, I just did it and it looks great IMO. Minimal work.
Update work proceeded well today. I've tuned the Tunguska and the Volcano, the former to move it more towards a Skipper and the latter got a bit heavier with a slightly worse Isp. I've also fixed the fuel switch config to work correctly and not create free space. As a cue from igor's config earlier, it now will check to make sure there isn't already an FSFuelSwitch module there and won't apply to parts with integrated engines. Additionally, it'll target the large amount of orbital cryo tanks that I'll be releasing with NFT 0.50+. These have great mass ratios and high capacities, but are fragile and very poor at resisting heat. They should make excellent orbital storage, as intended, but don't use them for aerobraking or launch vehicles .
Finally, I've also packaged the MFT and PP configs found in this thread, with noted credit of course.
Does that about sum up the bugs that needed to be fixed?
By the way, this pack looks very nice with the Engine Light mod. I highly recommend . I may also spend some time providing configs to adjust the colour of the light created in a couple of cases to match the engine effects.

Will try Engine Light. Won't argue that Volcano was a bit on the strong side. That took me to a munar landing in career where I couldnt even get a flyby with stock engines.

Either these engines are OP or they just coincide really well with my rocket building style. But being fair, I think the power disparity comes with the stock engines being nerfed to hell.

mikegarrison · May 24, 2015

CRP uses different units for LH2 and kerosene.

With the T100 tank here's what I can put in it:

100 LOX or 500 LH + 50 LOX

So 500 LH = 50 LOX in terms of tank capacity.

In that case, why is an all-LH tank 550 LH? It should be 1000 LH.

This comes up because I was interested in making separate LH and LOX tanks rather than using LH/LOX combo tanks, but you lose a tremendous amount of LH capacity if you try it.

Are you saying the units for LH are different in a LH/O than than they are in an all-LH tank?

- - - Updated - - -

OK, so going back a few pages I see that this was discussed.

Edited May 24, 2015 by mikegarrison

rasta013 · May 25, 2015

Just an FYI - the new version of Interstellar Fuel Switch implemented automatic tank cost and mass calculations and it appears it has completely borked the LH2 fuel patch we're using right now. I can no longer swap any fuel tanks to LH2 or LH2/OX at all. I do believe this new code is what caused the problem and reverting back to the previous version of the IFS solved the issue.

Thanks for all the hard work Nert, really appreciate all that you do with Cryo and the NF catalog.

rasta013 · May 25, 2015

Update - there was a bug in the IFS code that FreeThinker got fixed a little earlier today. Tested v. 1.5 with Cryo's existing patch and all is well again.

autumnalequinox · May 27, 2015

I have been loving this mod. I now use cryo-fuels and engines for all my space needs. Conventional fuel only for 1st stage or landing. Anybody made a fix to get the stock fuel cells to burn LH2 and oxidizer instead? I'm going to check it out and play with some numbers, see if I can bang out something simple. I love the idea of fuel cells coming before solar, and am going to make a MM patch for Community Tech tree so the single cell pops up earlier too, before the deployable solar cells

edit: anybody have an idea of a good LH2 consumption rate for the cells?

Edited May 27, 2015 by autumnalequinox

rasta013 · May 28, 2015

I have been loving this mod. I now use cryo-fuels and engines for all my space needs. Conventional fuel only for 1st stage or landing. Anybody made a fix to get the stock fuel cells to burn LH2 and oxidizer instead? I'm going to check it out and play with some numbers, see if I can bang out something simple. I love the idea of fuel cells coming before solar, and am going to make a MM patch for Community Tech tree so the single cell pops up earlier too, before the deployable solar cells
edit: anybody have an idea of a good LH2 consumption rate for the cells?

Perhaps take a look at the IFS patch for the tanks and look at the conversion rates used to properly fill tanks and use the same ratio calculation for fuel burn using a fuel cell. That's at least a starting point if not an outright solution.

aristurtle · May 28, 2015

Hey, I just noticed that the included patch for fuel tanks doesn't seem to work right with some of the tanks from Ven's Stock Revamp. Specifically, all of the tanks it specifies in ExtraTanks.cfg (e.g. the Oscar-D and Oscar-E stretched 625mm tanks) end up with the wrong fuel amounts, even in the LFO configuration.

I think it's because Ven uses +PART to create new tanks that are based off of existing ones, so if Ven's loads after CryoEngines, then the Oscar-B has already had its LFO replaced with the InterstellarFuelSwitch module, and the new tanks just copy that module. If I add "AFTER[VenStockRevamp]" to CryoEnginesFuelTanks.cfg it seems to fix it, but I feel like there has to be a better way to do this, because other mods might use +PART for fuel tanks too.

edit: Also it has issues with parts that have LFO and IntakeAir (e.g. the MK2 intake adaptor from QuiztechAero), they no longer function as intakes.

Edited May 28, 2015 by aristurtle

undercoveryankee · May 28, 2015

Hey, I just noticed that the included patch for fuel tanks doesn't seem to work right with some of the tanks from Ven's Stock Revamp. Specifically, all of the tanks it specifies in ExtraTanks.cfg (e.g. the Oscar-D and Oscar-E stretched 625mm tanks) end up with the wrong fuel amounts, even in the LFO configuration.
I think it's because Ven uses +PART to create new tanks that are based off of existing ones, so if Ven's loads after CryoEngines, then the Oscar-B has already had its LFO replaced with the InterstellarFuelSwitch module, and the new tanks just copy that module. If I add "AFTER[VenStockRevamp]" to CryoEnginesFuelTanks.cfg it seems to fix it, but I feel like there has to be a better way to do this, because other mods might use +PART for fuel tanks too.

If Ven's or similar mods are cloning parts that other mods are likely to have wild-card patches for, those new-part patches would be good candidates to run in :FIRST. You can consider running the catch-all fuel-switch patch in :FINAL, since most people who want to patch fuel tanks would rather patch the stock RESOURCE nodes than deal with the internals of the FuelSwitch module.

JPmAn · May 31, 2015

Is the ct10's nozzle extendable?

pacbard · May 31, 2015

I just noticed that there is a logic error in the Interstellar Fuel Switch MM patch.

Background: I have re-read the previous conversation about tanks 3 times and this is what I got from it: Liquid Fuel and Oxidizer are measured in Fuel Units. Community Resource Pack's resources (like Liquid Hydrogen) are measured in liters. It is commonly accepted that the conversion rate between Fuel Units and Liters is 1:5.5.

Findings: The current IFS patch calculates the following values for a tank that holds 800 FU:

- 360 LF +400 OX = 800 Fuel Units

- 800 LF

- 800 OX

- 4400 LH2 = 800 Fuel Units

- 4000 LH2 + 400 OX = 727 Fuel Units of LH2 + 400 Fuel Units of OX = 1127 total fuel units in the tank (which is 140% of the tank volume)

Solution: When we solve the proportion between LH2 and OX, we should use Fuel Units rather than Liters. This code is a drop-in fix for the problem:


// Adds InterstellarFuelSwitch to stock tanks
// 5.5*total LFO


@PART
[*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LiquidFuel],@RESOURCE[Oxidizer],!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant],!MODULE[InterstellarFuelSwitch]] {



    %LF = #$RESOURCE[LiquidFuel]/maxAmount$
    %OX = #$RESOURCE[Oxidizer]/maxAmount$

    %totalCap = #$RESOURCE[LiquidFuel]/maxAmount$
    @totalCap += #$RESOURCE[Oxidizer]/maxAmount$

    %onlyLH2 = #$totalCap$
    @onlyLH2 *= 5.5             // CRP resources are measured in liters. 1 fuel unit = 5.5 L

    %LH2toOXratio = 10          // 1 fuel unit of OX to 10 liters of LH2
    @LH2toOXratio /= 5.5        // Convert LH2 to fuel units
    @LH2toOXratio += 1          // 100% bar (1 fuel unit of OX + 10/5.5 fuel units of LH2)
    %mixOX = #$totalCap$        // Start with a tank full of OX
    @mixOX /= #$LH2toOXratio$   // Find the correct percentage OX
    %mixLH2 = #$totalCap$       // Use the total tank capacity
    @mixLH2 -= #$mixOX$         // LH2 will fill the rest of the tank
    @mixLH2 *= 5.5              // Convert LH2 to liters 


    %tempVar = 0
    %dryCost = 0

    @dryCost = #$cost$

    %LFCost = 0
    %OXCost = 0
    %LH2Cost = 0
    %mixLH2Cost = 0
    %mixLFCost = 0

    // compute cost of stock tank fuel
    @tempVar = #$RESOURCE[LiquidFuel]/maxAmount$
    @tempVar *= 0.8
    @mixLFCost += #$tempVar$

    @tempVar = #$RESOURCE[Oxidizer]/maxAmount$
    @tempVar *= 0.18
    @mixLFCost += #$tempVar$

    @dryCost -= #$mixLFCost$
    @cost -= #$mixLFCost$

    // Cost LF only
    @tempVar = #$totalCap$
    @tempVar *= 0.8
    @LFCost += #$tempVar$

    // Cost OX only
    @tempVar = #$totalCap$
    @tempVar *= 0.18
    @OXCost += #$tempVar$

    // Cost LH2 only
    @tempVar = #$onlyLH2$
    @tempVar *= 0.03675
    @LH2Cost += #$tempVar$

    // Cost mix
    @tempVar = #$mixLH2$
    @tempVar *= 0.03675
    @mixLH2Cost += #$tempVar$

    @tempVar = #$mixOX$
    @tempVar *= 0.18
    @mixLH2Cost += #$tempVar$


    @tempVar = 0
    MODULE {
        name = InterstellarFuelSwitch


        resourceNames = LiquidFuel,Oxidizer;LqdHydrogen,Oxidizer;LiquidFuel;Oxidizer;LqdHydrogen


        resourceAmounts = #$../LF$,$../OX$;$../mixLH2$,$../mixOX$;$../totalCap$;$../totalCap$;$../onlyLH2$


        tankCost = #$../mixLFCost$;$../mixLH2Cost$;$../LFCost$;$../OXCost$;$../LH2Cost$
        displayCurrentTankCost = true


        hasGUI = true
        showInfo = true

        availableInFlight = false
        availableInEditor = true


        basePartMass = #$../mass$
        tankMass = 0;0;0;0;0
    }

    !RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
    !RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}

}

Conclusion: I do not know how this change will affect gameplay and balance. I just did the math so the tank has constant volume when we switch between fuels.

On a related note, currently cryo engine burn at a ratio of 1 fuel unit of oxidizer to 10 liters of LH2, which equals to 1 fuel unit of OX to 1.18181818 fuel units of LH2. Cryogenic engines usually have a volumetric burn ratio of approximately 1:3 (source: total volume of OX:LH2 in the Saturn V Second and Third stages). Cryo engines should be updated to burn 1 Liter of LH2 to 0.0625 Fuel Units of OX, which equals to 1 Unit of OX to 16 Liters of LH2 or 1 Unit of OX to 2.90 Fuel Units of LH2.

Let me know what you think about this and if you spot any errors in my math!

Edited May 31, 2015 by pacbard

mikegarrison · June 1, 2015

On a related note, currently cryo engine burn at a ratio of 1 fuel unit of oxidizer to 10 liters of LH2, which equals to 1 fuel unit of OX to 1.18181818 fuel units of LH2. Cryogenic engines usually have a volumetric burn ratio of approximately 1:3 (source: total volume of OX:LH2 in the Saturn V Second and Third stages). Cryo engines should be updated to burn 1 Liter of LH2 to 0.0625 Fuel Units of OX, which equals to 1 Unit of OX to 16 Liters of LH2 or 1 Unit of OX to 2.90 Fuel Units of LH2.

In a more up-to-date reference, the volume ratio of LOX to LH2 in the Space Shuttle External Tank is 1:2.7

Andy81le · June 1, 2015

Is your mod compatible with RealFuels? I am unable to use your mod since it requires the Interstellar Fuel Switch which somehow interferes with RealFuels.

BioRoots · June 3, 2015

**Edit turn out i dont know how to use KER **

I fell there is a issue with the Yucatan engine and the Odin engine not representing the proper max thrust in the description see album for reference.

http://imgur.com/a/3IjuZ

Yucatan Max thrust (ALS) 786

Odin Max thrust (ALS) 917

Yet when I add to the same tank the Yucatan as a way better TWR.

Edited June 3, 2015 by BioRoots

Nertea · June 3, 2015

No, not compatible with real fuels out of the box.

I don't see the problem - you're looking at ASL thrust in the part description, but KER is set to vacuum thrust. Click Atmospheric on KER and you will get proper numbers.

BioRoots · June 3, 2015

oh my bad new to using KER

Thank

Nertea · June 3, 2015

Because KSP 1.03 is ages away, updating things nowish. Version 0.1.6 is up, except for CF, because approvals.

Updated included ModuleManager to 2.6.5
Updated included InterstellarFuelSwitch to 1.7 (fixes a couple bugs)
Added a patch for EngineLight that will tweak some colours on some engines
Fixed fuel switch patch for stock tanks to give much more logical ratios
Fuel switch patch now doesn't target parts with integral engines
Fuel switch patch functions on LF/O/MP tanks too (preserves the MP)
Fuel switch patch also targets LH2 orbital tanks from NFP 0.5.0+, adds ability to load LH2/OX and OX
Minor tweaks to cost of most engines
Included patches for ModularFuelTanks and ProceduralParts
Adjusted thrust/isp of the Tunguska to move it into a similar slot as the Skipper
Adjusted mass/isp of the Volcano to make it a little less overpowered
Added mipmaps to all .dds textures
Chelyabinsk now starts retracted and extends when staged
Adjusted thrust locations for some engines

rasta013 · June 3, 2015

Woohoo!!!

FreeThinker · June 3, 2015

Could boiloff be added as an option, to further enhance the realism?

In Future versions of InterstellarFuelSwitch I intend to support boiloff. allowing you to add boiloff to all IFS tanks with a simple MM script!

Fraz86 · June 4, 2015

Fuel switch patch functions on LF/O/MP tanks too (preserves the MP)

It looks like fuel switching for LF/O/MP tanks was left out of the download. I don't see it in-game or in the config files.

Edit:

Also, in the config for LF/OX tanks, the line "tankMass = #$../mass$;#$../mixLH2mass$;#$../mass$;#$../mass$;#$../onlyLH2mass$" does not appear to be working as intended. In game, as you cycle through the fuel options, the "dry mass" remains constant at the part's stock mass. Contrast this with the Modular Octo-Girder, whose dry mass changes as intended. Unfortunately, I have not yet been able to identify the problem.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Fraz86

mikegarrison · June 4, 2015

Did you add a patch for the ISRU or should I still keep a separate patch to make the ISRU generate LH?

[1.12.x] Cryogenic Engines: Liquid Hydrogen and Methane Rockets! (Jan 22, 2022)

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